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Purchasing of sex will be criminalised (it appears) in the near future in Ireland

  • 17-10-2011 02:11AM
    #1
    ihacs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭ihacs


    I had a quick look around and can't see a discussion on this Seanad debate:
    Human Trafficking and Prostitution: Motion
    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/seanad/2011/10/12/00008.asp

    It has appeared to me for a while that a lot of the discussion on prostitution is based on dubious premises:

    e.g. (i) people don't grow up desiring to be a prostitute therefore it is should be banned - this ignores the fact that a lot of people around the world, in both the developed world and the developing world do jobs that they would prefer not to do or would not have desired to do when growing up.

    (ii) the impression that virtually all prostitutes are trafficked: I have come across dubious statistics e.g. I remember a letter in the Irish Times in the last year or two that quoted a very high figure e.g. 96%.
    ETA: found the letter:
    The Irish Times - Tuesday, February 8, 2011

    [..]

    Madam – I wish to commend the groups involved in Ireland’s “Turn Off the Red Light” campaign for highlighting the pernicious and often invisible problem of sex trafficking. In Ireland, 1,000 prostituted woman are available for sexual exploitation each day, 97 per cent of which have been trafficked into Ireland.

    Just because a person comes here from another country doesn't mean they are trafficked: lots of people work in other countries because the pay is better there - one can't assume that because somebody comes from another country, that they are automatically trafficked.

    Unfortunately, this is the sort of issue where most people, probably particularly politicians, won't stand up to those pushing for new laws i.e. argue with those who want the purchasing of sex criminalised (while at the same time, if the Swedish model is followed, the sale of sex won't be criminalised).

    Some people may find the following website of interest:
    http://www.turnoffthebluelight.ie/
    Welcome to the “Turn Off the Blue Light” (TOBL) website.

    We are a sex worker led association campaigning against calls to criminalise the purchase of sex, and for the health, safety, human, civil and labour rights of sex workers in Ireland.
    Tagged:


«134567…17

Comments

  • #2
    TeddyTedson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,758 ✭✭✭✭TeddyTedson


    It doesn't really matter. Legal/Illegal people are still going to get coke and hookers.


  • #3
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Ruhama are often on the radio lobbying and getting their message out in the public
    But they tend to go along the line of criminalize the buyer, not the seller

    http://www.ruhama.ie/

    Leaving aside their message for a minute, it's a well designed website, very clear and they update news feeds on the front page. Credit to the person who did the website

    And back ontopic FF Senator Mary White in conflict with party leadership on this issue it seems, it's a hot topic


    The turn off the blue light campaign is another lobby group and linked by the OP
    But Ruhama give a link to some dodgy looking site which claims
    http://www.dilloninvestigates.com/index_files/McCormick_pimp_prostitution.htm
    Millionaire pimp Peter McCormick behind campaign to legalise prostitution in Ireland.
    Based on a Sunday World investigation,

    So two lobby groups slinging mud at each other

    As to who is right or wrong, well I'm going to have read some more


  • #4
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    I've been pretty suspicious of Ruhama's motives since i found out they are a religious organization. They have nun's on their boards of directors.

    I dont think a religious organization should be leading the charge here because they are trying to ban prostitution for ideological reasons rather than out of interest for prostitutes welfare. We never actually seem to hear the opinions of prostitutes in the media because Ruhama always seems to speak on their behalf.

    If a secular group was instead tasked with the welfare of prostitutes and they called for the ban i'd be more likely to believe them.

    Also taken from their site for proof.
    Ruhama was founded as a joint initiative of the Good Shepherd Sisters and Our Lady of Charity Sisters, both of which had a long history of involvement with marginalised women, including those involved in prostitution.
    Trustees
    Sisters of Our Lady of Charity (O.L.C.)
    Good Shepherd Sisters (R.G.S.)

    Board of Directors
    Chairperson: Ms. Valerie Judge
    Company Secretary: Mr. Peter O Neill
    Sr. Sheila Murphy, O.L.C.
    Sr. Bernadette Mc Nally, R.G.S.
    Mr Diarmaid O Corrbui
    Dr. Mary Scully
    Mr Colm O Dwyer
    Ms. Catherine Joyce
    Sr. Frances Robinson, O.L.C
    Ms. Rachel Milum
    Ms. Catherine Nolan


  • #5
    Dana Angry Planetarium
    Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Dana Angry Planetarium


    I'd be happier with them legalising it fully and regulating it properly for the safety of the workers. Trafficking the unwilling workers is an awful thing there's no doubt, but pushing it underground isn't going to make it magically go away. Criminalise trafficking harshly and leave any willing sex workers to do their work.
    I wish they wouldn't link the two so closely; trafficking and prostitution, at least in my mind, are two separate things.


  • #6
    leonidas83
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭leonidas83


    It seems to be working in the scandanavian countries in which they have implemented these laws already but I'm not always convinced on the statistics they use. Because of the nature of prostitution, its difficult to gain a real insight into what is going on. I think alot of these organisations like ruhama pull statistics out of their arse in order to argue their case better

    I would be in favour of legalising it too but I can see the downsides to it. Its a good thing as long as Ireland doesnt become a haven for sex tourism and lose our appeal to other tourists.

    But the good sides far outweight this. More rights for prostitutes, regulation of the industry, more tax income for the government, less exploitation of prostitutes by crimial gangs, less risk for prostitutes dealing with scumbag clients.

    Lets be honest about it, it will always go on and different groups need to look at their idealogical views and realise they are doing more harm than good


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  • #7
    sarkozy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭sarkozy


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    I've been pretty suspicious of Ruhama's motives since i found out they are a religious organization. They have nun's on their boards of directors.

    I dont think a religious organization should be leading the charge here because they are trying to ban prostitution for ideological reasons rather than out of interest for prostitutes welfare. We never actually seem to hear the opinions of prostitutes in the media because Ruhama always seems to speak on their behalf.

    If a secular group was instead tasked with the welfare of prostitutes and they called for the ban i'd be more likely to believe them.

    Also taken from their site for proof.
    Wait a minute. You're saying that because Ruhama has a few board members from a religious order that they're immediately suspect? I am an athiest, have little time for the Catholic Church. However, I have great respect for St. Vincent de Paul, moderate respect for CORI (even though it doesn't criticise its own church as it should) and no time for Accord (and other similar socially conservative organisations). I'm socially liberal, pro-equality, pro-inclusiveness, social democratic. But I take each organisation's positions and try to see the good and bad, right and wrong.

    I've said it in other threads under a different Boards.ie name (here): the reality of prostitution is that it's exploitative. The vast majority of men and women selling sex are doing so because of difficult circumstances - poverty, abuse, addiction, trauma, etc.

    Crucially, the issue is about vulnerability. Yes, not everybody selling sex is trafficked, but the vast majority have been made vulnerable by circumstances in the course of life, and in a more extreme case than most.

    Any person experiencing disadvantage, deprivation, trauma, in my belief, is entitled to protection. When countries such as Sweden have adopted the 'prosecute-those-who-buy-sex' approach, the market has dried up, enabling sex workers to pursue other options through the welfare system. The action shifts the stigma from sex workers to sex buyers.

    I'm against legalisation because I'm against exploitation and prostitution for me in an actual and philosophical sense is expoitative. But I do believe sex workers need to be adequately protected.


  • #8
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    sarkozy wrote: »
    I've said it in other threads under a different Boards.ie name (here): the reality of prostitution is that it's exploitative. The vast majority of men and women selling sex are doing so because of difficult circumstances - poverty, abuse, addiction, trauma, etc.

    (...)

    When countries such as Sweden have adopted the 'prosecute-those-who-buy-sex' approach, the market has dried up, enabling sex workers to pursue other options through the welfare system.


    I get the point your trying to make and I agree that often people get driven into prostitution not because they want to but because they have to. But you seem to be presupposing (I think; correct me if I'm wrong) that the welfare system will solve these problems if the prostitutes stop their job and move onto benefits.

    Anyone who is driven to prostitution surely weighs up the fact they could go on the dole and get other benefits and decide that isn't a viable option. If it was the more attractive option, then people wouldn't be choosing prostitution over it. Meanwhile, we cannot afford to increase welfare options in this country at the moment. Making it further illegal won't encourage prostitutes to stop doing that job and look into welfare; if that was an option, surely they'd have taken it already.

    I think it should be legalised mainly because if it was, there'd be more room to protect people. It could be discussed then as well; thats the big problem imo. It's impossible to discuss this in a public forum as being pro-legalisation without exposing yourself to the social scorn and people thinking your a sick pervert or something...


  • #9
    Arfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭Arfan


    The government is clearly mad. Look at all the income tax we're losing out on. We should stretch out a hand to these poor people trapped in an exploitative industry, put a warm blanket round their shoulders and take 21% of their earnings.
    The Criminal Assets Bureau has valued the Irish sex industry at €250 million a year

    52.5 million would get us a school.


  • #10
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    makes sense illegal to sell illegal to buy


  • #11
    Kinski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    Why do people always assume that if you legalise an activity then all illegal forms of it will disappear? I'm open to the idea of a legalised, regulated, and taxed sex industry, but even if we go down that route, it doesn't mean that illegal sex work will all stop. In such an environment, it will be cheaper to maintain an illegal brothel than a legal one, and criminals will therefore charge less for the services they offer. Likewise, many women who are victims of the illegal trade in prostitution would probably find themselves barred from entering the legal one, for reasons such as lack of work permits (women trafficked in from outside the EU) and on health grounds (intravenous drug users). It's not as simple as saying "Let's bring it out in the open and everything will be fine."


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  • #12
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,000 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Kinski wrote: »
    Why do people always assume that if you legalise an activity then all illegal forms of it will disappear? I'm open to the idea of a legalised, regulated, and taxed sex industry, but even if we go down that route, it doesn't mean that illegal sex work will all stop. In such an environment, it will be cheaper to maintain an illegal brothel than a legal one, and criminals will therefore charge less for the services they offer. Likewise, many women who are victims of the illegal trade in prostitution would probably find themselves barred from entering the legal one, for reasons such as lack of work permits (women trafficked in from outside the EU) and on health grounds (intravenous drug users). It's not as simple as saying "Let's bring it out in the open and everything will be fine."

    Same could be said the opposite way round though; "Why do people think making it more illegal will stop it?"

    Its not that legalising it would make illegal aspects stop, but I think it would provide more options. You're not going to make it 100% safe for every person who enters the profession but by driving it underground, you're making it more likely that it won't be safe for anyone.

    Legalising it would mean there were safer options available for the majority. Yeah, there will always be people who have trouble entering the profession and are forced into unsafer conditions, but the alternative is to force EVERYONE into those conditions. Meanwhile, legalisation can mean more power for a lot of prostitutes in terms of who they work for, where they work, who they want to have sex with. More regulation on the part of the prostitute and the buyer means safer situations.

    Stopping it because making it legal won't stop all illegal forms is like throwing the baby out with the bath water because there's a speck of dirt in the water...


  • #13
    Kinski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    Oh, I agree with you. I'm responding more to people saying that "Look how much tax we could collect!" and the like. It's an area organised at the moment by criminals - even if a legal avenue opens, they still aren't going to feel like paying tax.


  • #14
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    It is illegal to buy and sell drugs in Ireland but it hasn't prevented drug use becoming almost endemic in some areas.
    I would be more in favour of legalising drugs and prostitution as a way of controlling who is involved and the spread of disease. The way it stands now, unsavoury types are making vast sums from both trades and costing the state millions in health care and crime prevention.
    Let's face it, men are always going to want sex with women, (or men for that matter), far be it that it's in a controlled environment than underground. I know there will always be a black market but in the overall scheme of things, it will be easier to cope with.


  • #15
    UnknownSpecies
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭UnknownSpecies


    If it was legalised and regulated then at least there would be a way for the men using these women to know if they were trafficked in or not. If there was some sort of registration process for prostitutes, the onus would be on the men not to use women who are not registered, ie. not trafficked in.

    This would surely reduce trafficking for prostitution reasons more then making it illegal since men are 100% still going to use these women but with no discrepancy between trafficked and non-trafficked women.


  • #16
    goose2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    leonidas83 wrote: »
    It seems to be working in the scandanavian countries in which they have implemented these laws already but I'm not always convinced on the statistics they use.
    Especially as the Swedish law requires prostitutes to testify against their customers - what business would do that?
    laoch na mona wrote: »
    makes sense illegal to sell illegal to buy
    It's not illegal to sell sex, it's illegal to pimp or to streetwalk. This would create a strange situation whereby a 'service' could be sold or performed for free with impunity, but paying for it would be a crime.

    Th fact is, prostitution is so lucrative (pays more than many surgeons) that there's no need to force people to do it.


  • #17
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    sarkozy wrote: »
    Wait a minute. You're saying that because Ruhama has a few board members from a religious order that they're immediately suspect? I am an athiest, have little time for the Catholic Church. However, I have great respect for St. Vincent de Paul, moderate respect for CORI (even though it doesn't criticise its own church as it should) and no time for Accord (and other similar socially conservative organisations). I'm socially liberal, pro-equality, pro-inclusiveness, social democratic. But I take each organisation's positions and try to see the good and bad, right and wrong.

    I've said it in other threads under a different Boards.ie name (here): the reality of prostitution is that it's exploitative. The vast majority of men and women selling sex are doing so because of difficult circumstances - poverty, abuse, addiction, trauma, etc.

    Crucially, the issue is about vulnerability. Yes, not everybody selling sex is trafficked, but the vast majority have been made vulnerable by circumstances in the course of life, and in a more extreme case than most.

    Any person experiencing disadvantage, deprivation, trauma, in my belief, is entitled to protection. When countries such as Sweden have adopted the 'prosecute-those-who-buy-sex' approach, the market has dried up, enabling sex workers to pursue other options through the welfare system. The action shifts the stigma from sex workers to sex buyers.

    I'm against legalisation because I'm against exploitation and prostitution for me in an actual and philosophical sense is expoitative. But I do believe sex workers need to be adequately protected.

    Then why not have a secular organization who's only motive will be to help the prostitutes who need help? The fact is as a religious group Ruhama will only ever have one view on the matter. Also we dont have any idea what the view on this is from the prostitutes themselves because Ruhama always seem to speak on their behalf and thus it seems the interests of Ruhama or taking precedence.

    You say prostitution is exploitave. So are many other jobs. Are people who need money and then take up a job they hate being exploited? What about students who take part in clinical trials because they need money?

    If a man or a woman decides to become a prostitute of their own free will then that should be their choice. I don't agree with many of the decisions people make but ultimately they have a right to decide for themselves.


  • #18
    Arfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭Arfan


    goose2005 wrote:
    Th fact is, prostitution is so lucrative (pays more than many surgeons) that there's no need to force people to do it.

    Surgeons are required to help people though. I don't remember anyone who needed prostitutes to save their life.


  • #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,497 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    goose2005 wrote: »
    ...........
    Th fact is, prostitution is so lucrative (pays more than many surgeons) that there's no need to force people to do it.

    The fact it is so lucrative is why people are being forced into it ;)
    Criminals can earn thousands/week from each victim they traffic and force to work as a prostitute.


  • #20
    Dana Angry Planetarium
    Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Dana Angry Planetarium


    Kinski wrote: »
    Why do people always assume that if you legalise an activity then all illegal forms of it will disappear? I'm open to the idea of a legalised, regulated, and taxed sex industry, but even if we go down that route, it doesn't mean that illegal sex work will all stop.
    The converse is that just because you make it entirely illegal, doesn't mean all sex work will stop. Plus you have the added problem where women will be afraid to go for help if it's illegal as they think they'll get in trouble. Of course that wouldn't be the only thing stopping them, but it would be some deterrent.
    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    You say prostitution is exploitave. So are many other jobs. Are people who need money and then take up a job they hate being exploited? What about students who take part in clinical trials because they need money?

    If a man or a woman decides to become a prostitute of their own free will then that should be their choice. I don't agree with many of the decisions people make but ultimately they have a right to decide for themselves.

    Couldn't agree more


  • #21
    Alopex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Alopex


    Arfan wrote: »
    goose2005 wrote:
    Th fact is, prostitution is so lucrative (pays more than many surgeons) that there's no need to force people to do it.

    Surgeons are required to help people though. I don't remember anyone who needed prostitutes to save their life.
    Don't see your point to be honest.

    On the topic, I have a feeling this will reduce the amount of normal prostitution, but do nothing to reduce the sex slave type prostitution.

    It pisses me off sex workers pay no tax so if their income drops over this happy days as far as I'm concerned


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  • #22
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,853 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    From a strict laissez-faire point of view, the state has increasing taken powers to regulate contracts between individuals over the past 100 years. Mostly the reason that was given by the state, is so as to protect the weaker party in the bargain.


  • #23
    Arfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭Arfan


    Alopex wrote: »
    Don't see your point to be honest.

    On the topic, I have a feeling this will reduce the amount of normal prostitution, but do nothing to reduce the sex slave type prostitution.

    It pisses me off sex workers pay no tax so if their income drops over this happy days as far as I'm concerned

    Sorry I was being glib. What I was saying to goose is we'll always need surgeons but do we always need prostitutes?


  • #24
    _Beau_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭_Beau_


    I think that the difficulty in legalising it lies in the fact that these women are largely being mistreated and a culture of abuse has been created by those involved in this industry.

    I don't believe that legalising it would change that culture, at least not overnight, and the possible outcome of making it legal could be that the State would be legalising the ill treatment of sex workers.


  • #25
    Alopex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Alopex


    Arfan wrote: »
    Alopex wrote: »
    Don't see your point to be honest.

    On the topic, I have a feeling this will reduce the amount of normal prostitution, but do nothing to reduce the sex slave type prostitution.

    It pisses me off sex workers pay no tax so if their income drops over this happy days as far as I'm concerned

    Sorry I was being glib. What I was saying to goose is we'll always need surgeons but do we always need prostitutes?

    There are plenty things we don't need. His point in mentioning surgeons was that its so lucrative you can earn more than many surgeons. It was just incidental surgeons are necessary, the relevance is they are highly paid


  • #26
    _Beau_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭_Beau_


    ...unlike prostitutes.


  • #27
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    One potential negative side effect is the potential for black mail of those who have paid prostitutes for sex. Our court records do show that in the past there have been cases of men using prostitutes having being subject to intimidation and theft. Clearly the danger of prosecution under these laws would be an inhibiting factor in reporting the aforementioned kinds of extortion and theft.


  • #28
    sarkozy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭sarkozy


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Then why not have a secular organization who's only motive will be to help the prostitutes who need help? The fact is as a religious group Ruhama will only ever have one view on the matter. Also we dont have any idea what the view on this is from the prostitutes themselves because Ruhama always seem to speak on their behalf and thus it seems the interests of Ruhama or taking precedence.

    You say prostitution is exploitave. So are many other jobs. Are people who need money and then take up a job they hate being exploited? What about students who take part in clinical trials because they need money?

    If a man or a woman decides to become a prostitute of their own free will then that should be their choice. I don't agree with many of the decisions people make but ultimately they have a right to decide for themselves.
    What I'm saying is just because an organisation has a Catholic ethos or policy core doesn't mean what it says is automatically suspicious or wrong. There is plenty of international and domestic evidence on the issue.

    In a liberal society, it's normal for different organisations to engage in social issues and it's not my impression that Ruhama has hidden its credentials. Now, the 'woman-as-passive-victim' approach which suits a Catholic, conservative outlook isn't something I'd be in favour of. However, as an athiest, I'd see this policy position being consistent with liberation theology, which is quite socialist in orientation.


  • #29
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    sarkozy wrote: »
    What I'm saying is just because an organisation has a Catholic ethos or policy core doesn't mean what it says is automatically suspicious or wrong. There is plenty of international and domestic evidence on the issue.

    In a liberal society, it's normal for different organisations to engage in social issues and it's not my impression that Ruhama has hidden its credentials. Now, the 'woman-as-passive-victim' approach which suits a Catholic, conservative outlook isn't something I'd be in favour of. However, as an athiest, I'd see this policy position being consistent with liberation theology, which is quite socialist in orientation.

    In Ireland today it is hard to believe the Catholic church can have any pure intentions. While those particular individuals involved in Ruhama, may have done so with the best intentions, I doubt if liberation theology can be counted among their attributes, if it were they would not be RC nuns.


  • #30
    _Beau_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭_Beau_


    anymore wrote: »

    One potential negative side effect is the potential for black mail of those who have paid prostitutes for sex. Our court records do show that in the past there have been cases of men using prostitutes having being subject to intimidation and theft. Clearly the danger of prosecution under these laws would be an inhibiting factor in reporting the aforementioned kinds of extortion and theft.


    I would have difficulty feeling any sympathy for a man who had used a prostitute, to be honest.

    For the most part, women do not want to service men, but, have been forced to do so because of a lack of choices (socio-economic background, narcotic addiction, sex trafficking, history of child abuse) and using a prostitute, in view of why it's likely that she became one, could be seen as a form of abuse in itself.


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  • #31
    Arfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭Arfan


    _Beau_ wrote: »
    I would have difficulty feeling any sympathy for a man who had used a prostitute, to be honest.

    For the most part, women do not want to service men, but, have been forced to do so because of a lack of choices (socio-economic background, narcotic addiction, sex trafficking, history of child abuse) and using a prostitute, in view of why it's likely that she became one, could be seen as a form of abuse in itself.

    She told you that herself did she?


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