Purchasing of sex will be criminalised (it appears) in the near future in Ireland

NewHillel

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

When prostitution was decriminalised between 1982 and 1993, WE policed the pimps ourselves and ensured there was no coercion...

Are you seriously suggesting that there was no coercion?
Sounds a tad unlikely.
How do you know?
Did you know the circumstances of every prostitute in Ireland?

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

You don't seriously think we are mindless lumps of rubber do you? We do have our own opinions on the topic of pimps and coercion.

Never suggested anyone didn't!
How do women like those in the prime Time programme get a voice?

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

As a matter of fact the supreme court challenge that lead to decriminalisation was brought by a group of ordinary working mums and prostitutes who were friends of an ex prostitute and women's rights activist called Dolores Lynch, who was burned alive along with her mother and aunt, as punishment for giving evidence against somebody else's pimp.

The women ruled themselves, the pimps and protect racketeers had nothing to offer (they usually get a foothold because, when prostitution is illegal, the women have nowhere to turn for protection from bad clients, theft, or other abuses. ). If anyone tried to prey on the women they could call the guards to deal with it.

After the 1993 act they had to turn to the pimps to protect them from arrest. Organised crime was gearing up to take control of the red light districts and the brothels almost a year before the act was even passed...

They knew that as soon as the law passed the women would be helpless...and would have no choice but go along with them.

Some of this is solved if it is the punter, not the prostitute, who is committing the crime.
Organised crime is now active in this area and there is no way of turning back the clock. Full legalisation will only make matters worse, as it will make prosecution of the criminals more difficult. It was always wrong that the prostitute was targeted by lawmakers. It was indicative of the attitude, by many in various positions of authority, towards women in general.

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

If prostitution is decriminalised again coercion will cease to be possible well within 18 months..

Really? So what exactly will change for those women we saw on Prime Time. Exactly how will decriminalisation make it easier for them?

Eileen_Lang

NewHillel wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that there was no coercion?

Absolutely, in the sense of active coercion, the only "coercion" involved was passive and circumstantial, like me...life, all by itself, puts some people in terrible corners with no way out...but for some people prostitution represents one last chance to stay alive, keep it together, and make it to a chance of a better time and place...during the boom I would have happily jumped up and down demanding that the state get it's finger out and ENSURE that all these women had real alternative (neutrally, within the system, as a right, independent of Ruhama or any other agenda driven NGO that was only interested in playing dysfunctional games with their lives).

But now? What is the point in wasting the energy, there *IS* no money for the state to do that with...in fact, the state has no alternative but take the real alternatives to prostitution *AWAY* from a few more people with every round of cuts...

What would you have those people do?

Give up and pad the suicide statistics and even up the gender disparity instead?

NewHillel wrote: »

Sounds a tad unlikely.
How do you know?
Did you know the circumstances of every prostitute in Ireland?

Ridiculous as it may sound, it was actually a small, close knit community, and I very probably *DID* know the circumstances of pretty much every prostitute on Ireland...let me put some hard perspective on that for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millstreet

A little town in County Cork (chosen at random for it's population size I had never even heard of it before), with a population of 1500...the highest possible estimate of women in prostitution in Ireland in 1993 (or now). I am sure nobody has any trouble believing everybody who lives there is aware of the existance of any abuse within the community.

I am certain that if there had been any coercion it would have been general knowledge among the women, for the very short time we let it happen.

The first signs of even *attempts* at coercion came with the introduction of the 1993 law.

I am very glad you brought this up, because I was doing some research last night that suggests the informal decriminalisation by legal challenge (rather than legislation) that existed in Ireland between 1982 and 1993 was all but unique internationally, perhaps not just within it's time frame, but more generally. Most countries either legalised fully, or clung to, and largely ignored outdated prohibitions.

I am not sure if that decriminalisation would be as effective in a larger, more anonymous society, but, the fact remains that the women held the balance of power, there was no coercion, no conspicuous substance abuse, and even prostitutes under 25 were rare, under age girls just got collared, thoroughly discouraged and frog marched home...as many times as it took...(many of the women had teenage daughters of their own and were rather good at handling them).

All the coercion, all the pimps, all the organised crime, and all the trafficking came back (because it was around pre 1982 as well) after and BECAUSE of the prohibitions in the 1993 laws.

Of course I am not naive...there was pedophillia...I could even tell you where - if I was tired of life, but it was buried as far away from the sex industry of the time as possible. Hidden in the fabric of "respectable" society where people were less equipped to spot the signs than sex workers would be.

...and you can criminalise prostitution to your hearts content and that particular deeply hidden nightmare will still go on.

NewHillel wrote: »

Eileen Lang wrote:

You don't seriously think we are mindless lumps of rubber do you? We do have our own opinions on the topic of pimps and coercion.

Never suggested anyone didn't!
How do women like those in the prime Time programme get a voice?

Not through further criminalisation, that is for sure. If they are really trafficked they will just be shifted to another country.

Decriminalise and they, as well as the independent women, will be in a far stronger position to not only escape, and prosecute the pimps, but also use their own voice, to say what THEY want to say, rather than whatever words the Prime Time team want to put in their mouths.

The very sad truth is that most of them will wind up being deported to the situations they left in the first place...some will be older, wiser, and perfectly fine...others would probably be better off dead...the world, in general, can be cr*p like that to people sometimes. :mad::(:mad:

NewHillel wrote: »

Some of this is solved if it is the punter, not the prostitute, who is committing the crime.

Not really, because then prostitution is driven even further underground and into the clutches of organised crime and coercion, which will only make things far worse, for everyone, except the pimps and traffickers, of course.

Clients will be driven off, but they will be the ordinary, boring harmless ones - what will remain will be substance abusers, thrill seekers, et al. All far more dangerous...

Then there is the matter of all those ALREADY desperate, vulnerable women, and their families losing their last resort income and having no hope of replacing it in this climate...what will happen to them?

The money fairy?

NewHillel wrote: »

Organised crime is now active in this area and there is no way of turning back the clock.

That is where you are wrong, because decriminalisation in 1982 *DID* turn back the clock on similar involvement, quickly and effectively, you will find a full but subjective account of what prostitution was like in Ireland in Lyn Madden's book "Lyn, a Prostitutes Story". I have verified the accuracy of the account with people who were directly involved, and they confirm it is a fair description of the situation at that time.

NewHillel wrote: »

Full legalisation will only make matters worse, as it will make prosecution of the criminals more difficult.

I am not, and never have advocated full legalisation, just the middle road of decriminalisation, not because it makes prosecution of criminals more difficult, it actually doesn't and is far better in that respect than prohibition, which not only drives them, but most of the people who could give evidence against them, too far underground , but because of a host of other problems it causes in the day to day business of prostitution (which, in real terms, is most of it), rather than the extremes, not only for the prostitute, but for the wider society...particularly in an Irish context where the taxation situation does not even bear thinking about.

NewHillel wrote: »

It was always wrong that the prostitute was targeted by lawmakers. It was indicative of the attitude, by many in various positions of authority, towards women in general.

You got that right...but to legislate to take away here income and make her life impossible *IS* to target the prostitute too.

NewHillel wrote: »

Eileen Lang wrote:

If prostitution is decriminalised again coercion will cease to be possible well within 18 months..

Really? So what exactly will change for those women we saw on Prime Time. Exactly how will decriminalisation make it easier for them?

See above...decriminalisation empowers the independent women, and, no longer forced to accept working alongside that kind of sh*t to survive they tend to refuse to stand for the sh*t any more...

Sadly, many of the women who are trafficked are people who do not have a prayer anyway, unless we open our borders to unlimited immigration and give them the same rights to social protection as a citizen...that is a much bigger, crueller issue than criminalising clients so they are trafficked to a different country instead will ever solve.

The_Thing

Eileen, is there anyone in the Government who is at least suspicious of Ruhama's motives?

Personally I always have had grave doubts that the welfare of the women is genuinely of primary concern in an organisation which has three nuns on its board of directors, to me it seems to have more to do with imposing their morals and religious beliefs on other people.

When Ruhama and a delegation from the department of Justice went to Sweden last year they did not meet with any sex workers there and to me that just seems bizarre - travel to a country on a "fact" finding mission and then completely ignore those people who have been most directly affected by changes in the law there.

And last year I heard Geraldine Rowley(Ruhama) herself admit to Pat Kenny on one of his morning shows that prostitution would always exist in some form or other in Ireland regardless of whether the law was changed or not - if that's the case surely legalising it in some form would be a better approach to take in the long run?

Lots of intesting reading here Laura Agustin - The Naked Anthropologist

Eileen_Lang

The_Thing wrote: »

Eileen, is there anyone in the Government who is at least suspicious of Ruhama's motives?

I have no magical, secret, sources, but my overall impression is that there are very few people in government who are really buying into their campaign at all.

Politicians were asked if they were willing to support trafficked and prostituted women...and, of course, they said "yes"...but as the truth dawns it is unlikely that any of them are too pleased by the extent they have been mislead.

It stands to reason...if you want to help support women in prostitution then you campaign for real, neutral exit resources FIRST...before anything else...not just for punitive laws to take their income away as if they did not exist, or did not matter...

Whenever I read "Turn Off the Red Lights" press releases, or listen to broadcast statements I am left with a sense of the women who actually provided for themselves and their families by selling sex as a commodity that can be hygenically disposed of by customs, or Dublin Corpo when they have "eradicated prostitution" to suit their privileged little ideology...

But they aren't a commodity, they are people who will be left without homes, without money for groceries and without any way to make it to a better future...while the ladies who support "Turn Off the Red Light" congratulate each other for "saving them" over luncheons that cost enough to feed their families for a week...

...and I DO NOT CARE what anyone wants to say...*THAT* is reality...that can be smelled, touched and proved.

It's easy to destroy somebody else's only chance at keeping their life together for the sake of a silly, cruel ideological fad when you can count on that much privilege...

Politicians are usually very intelligent people, they see this as clearly as I do.