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Medical consultants with an awful bedside manner: why do they still get away with it?

  • 14-10-2011 10:58PM
    #1
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭


    For years the wigged Senior Councils and their affected accents, ridiculous colonial titles and general desire to be an elite have been the most deserving of all sections in this republic of radical reform to drag them out of the seventeenth century. Roll on the IMF/ECB and the Competition Authority report on that particular issue! That "untouchable" elite (challenge their power, they contended, and you undermined "justice") looks like it might be having its comeuppance.

    Now, for the upper echelons of the medical profession in Ireland, the other "untouchable" class.

    The stories of hospital consultants having no -zilch, zero - bedside manner and treating unwell and scared people like shít infuriate me. Is ignorance and contempt a prerequisite to be a hospital consultant in Ireland? Really, is it? Yes, of course there are hospital consultants who have a way with patients, an inherent kindness and empathy - but in my now quite extensive experience (another 2 of them dealt with a family member in the past two weeks) the vast fúcking majority of hospital consultants are cold, obnoxious, socially retarded arseholes of the highest order.

    They are known across their wards and hospitals for their lack of a bedside manner, for the absence of simple kindness and in very many cases their contempt for patients. No matter how good they are at their job, there is no excuse for their inability to treat patients with respect and dignity. None. And I really don't care if a medical consultant saved everybody you know: if he lacks compassion and respect for patients, vulnerable people, he should not be employed in a hospital.

    What consequences do consultants have for treating patients so abysmally? None, it seems. Walk into a hospital and these arsehole consultants are gods. Gods. Absolute gods. Junior doctors, nurses, interns - everybody - run around after them trying to impress them and taking all that shít. Go against one and your career is in jeopardy in the tiny society that is medicine in Ireland, and the frighteningly smaller society that is the medical specialisation in question. Occasionally, you find a nurse who's sure in her career and stands up to one of these people. An rud is annamh is iontach.

    These people, the medical consultants with no bedside manner, have been untouchable for as long as I've been alive. It's long past the time that an Irish government, in whose employment most of these people are, and the Irish Medical Association took action on this culture among medical consultants where being insensitive, rude and socially inept is considered a sign of your 'god' status in the frontline that is supposed to be looking after patients.

    Solutions: How about compulsory interpersonal skill training for all medical consultants? How about a rating system where medical consultants are graded for, among other things, their bedside manner/empathy/social intelligence towards patients - and suffer financially and in reputational terms in an official ranking system for failing in this area?


    /end rant.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Dotrel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Dotrel


    Too much of this in their own heads ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqeC3BPYTmE


  • #3
    The King of Moo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    I think it's the same problem with a disproportionate number of CEO's: to get to such an elevated position, a touch of psychopathy and a lack of empathy helps, unfortunately.


  • #4
    Elohim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 334 ✭✭Elohim


    Dionysus wrote: »
    And I really don't care if a medical consultant saved everybody you know: if he lacks compassion and respect for patients, vulnerable people, he should not be employed in a hospital.

    I think i'd rather a doctor that may treat me badly but cure me fully than a very nice doctor who won't be able to cure me...


  • #5
    Cill Dara Abu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,851 ✭✭✭Cill Dara Abu


    I like jaffa cakes


  • #6
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,037 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Dionysus wrote: »
    And I really don't care if a medical consultant saved everybody you know: if he lacks compassion and respect for patients, vulnerable people, he should not be employed in a hospital.

    I fail to see what bedside manner has to do with bloody anything.

    Fact of the matter is these men and women work ridiculously long hours saving peoples lives.

    I'd rather my Doctor was able to do his job than have to waste time doing compulsory "emotional" training because you're a precious bloody butterfly.

    So they're not the most compassionate people in the world. Why don't you try forming an emotional attachment to dozens of people a day, many of whom WILL die soon and tell us how well you do.

    Jesus christ of all the stupid things to complain about in this society, you choose the feckin Doctors.


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  • #7
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    While I agree that many of them do have poor inter personal skills you need to look at the conveyor belt system whereby they work long hours and have so many patients to see that they can only spend a few minutes with each. Pretty sure that makes them seem far worse.

    Dont you have to go through an interview system to get into medicine in college now to try to improve the level of social skills for doctors?


  • #8
    jonsnow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 724 ✭✭✭jonsnow


    Great post op.They get away with it because they still have the power.People don,t put up with it because they like it.There is a huge shortage of people with their skillset in this country so there are huge waiting lists.If you are in pain and scared you will put up with any amount of poor bedside manner because you have to.The guy might be the only expert in the required field in three counties and you have already waited 5 months for him to look at you.You can,t afford to upset the applecart and you just have to put up with it.

    There is a ridiculous shortage of consultants in ireland which is of course deliberate.This means they get to act like demigods, get paid multiples more than consultants in other eu countries and have waaay too much influence given their paltry numbers.


  • #9
    General General
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭General General


    If you get the points for medicine, get around the 'but are you the right kind of person' test, get your degree & then put in all the hours that are required after all that, then you probably can't take Fergal Quinn's crowning the customer sh!t seriously.

    If you don't like them, then visit the UK, or go learn French & German, see what the Doctors in those worlds are like.


  • #10
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    I believe the children are the future.

    Teach them to-question-all-authroity-and-not-feel-inferior-to-anyone and let them lead the way.

    Show them all that natural questioning they possess inside.

    Give them a sense of pride.

    I'm serious btw.


  • #11
    jonsnow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 724 ✭✭✭jonsnow


    Elohim wrote: »
    I think i'd rather a doctor that may treat me badly but cure me fully than a very nice doctor who won't be able to cure me...

    But wouldn,t you prefer a very nice doctor who would cure you fully


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  • #12
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Elohim wrote: »
    I think i'd rather a doctor that may treat me badly but cure me fully than a very nice doctor who won't be able to cure me...

    Both are not mutually exclusive, nor should they be, so that's a false dichotomy. Talking to patients, explaining problems in a respectful way and instilling their confidence in the work of the consultant are part of their recovery. Treating patients with a lack of empathy and respect is unprofessional, and consultants should not be allowed to get away with it in the medical profession.


  • #13
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    jonsnow wrote: »
    But wouldn,t you prefer a very nice doctor who would cure you fully

    Everyone would but we would need to be paying far, far, far more for it.

    When you go to see a consultant your in the room literally 1 to 4 mins tops. This goes on all day. If their going to be nice about things wed need 4 times more consultants.


  • #14
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    I've said it before. We need to be questioning people in positions of authority more in this country. I mean questioning everyone inc parents, teachers, cops, doctors, legal people, academics, scientists - the whole shebang.

    Those people in authority who care about transparency will be only to happy to take questions.


  • #15
    epgc3fyqirnbsx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,228 ✭✭✭epgc3fyqirnbsx


    To stay sane in that profession you'd want to detach yourself from emotion. No excuse for being rude though
    It would be nice to see a warm manner but not everyone is capable of it. If it was me I'd probably vomit all over the sick people


  • #16
    JustAThought
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,324 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    I was in a car crash ( hit & run; gOt the reg, guy skipped the country) & ended up with bad damage to my hand; amongst other things. Went to consultant in santry; was examined & then sat waiting as he unbelievably dictated several letters mid consultation into his dictaphone on other patients matters, while I was paying e200 for his time. This was midway through his assessment of me. Unbelievable.
    Requested him to stop and do his administration for other patients on his own time. He couldn't believe his ears that I'd dared to question him.

    The same clown recommended physio 3 times a week for the injury, & I asked for a recommendation; he dismissed me & told me to ask his secretary. I said that I was paying him e200 for his professional guidance and medical advice & would like to receive his personal view on a physio who specialised & who was familiar with my kind of treatment needed. He stared me out of it, left, and returned with a photocopied page from the golden pages.

    There is a big difference between basic manners and professional courtesy & the kind of arrogance and ignorant behaviour that customers have to endure.

    Thank God I could vote with my feet.

    Many people do not have that option.


  • #17
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    JustAThought wrote: »
    I was in a car crash ( hit & run; guy skipped the country) & ended up with bad damage to my hand; amongst other things. Went to consultant in santry; waited he unbelievable dictated several letters mid consultation into his dictaphone while I was paying e200 for his time. This was midway through his assessment of me. Unbelievable. Requested him to stop and do his administration for other pToents on his own time. He couldn't believe his ears that I'd dared to question him.
    He recommended physio 3 times a week & I asked for a recommendation; he dismissed me & told me to ask his secretary. I said that I was paying him e200 for his professional guidance and medical advice & would like to receive his personal view on a physio who specialised & who was familiar with my kind of treatment needed. He stared me out of it, left, and returned with a photocopied page from the golden pages.
    There is a big difference between basic manners and professional courtesy & the kind of arrogance and ignorant behaviour that customers have to endure. Thank God I could vote with my feet. Many people do not have that option.
    Awful case of unprofessional behaviour but I dont think its true for most of them. Most of them arent bad in my experience but you do hear about the odd one with a godlike complex.


  • #18
    Mollywolly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 566 ✭✭✭Mollywolly


    I have to agree with the OP, having experienced poor treatment myself a few years ago.

    I was admitted to hospital with severe abdominal pains and was placed under the care of a well-respected consultant. HE was brilliant, but he brought with him on his rounds a group of junior doctors and got one of them to examine me. I didn't mind this so much until this eejit started prodding my abdomen so hard that it reduced me to tears. I was already in a lot of pain and this cretin made it ten times worse. There were no apologies, nothing.

    The next day the same group appeared and the same junior doctor made a move towards me and I stopped him in his tracks and refused to let him examine me again, citing his poor bedside manner and his lack of courtesy the previous day. This time he did apologise and promised to be more gentle the next time. I think he was mortified but it needed to be said.

    I understand that doctors/nurses work very hard and long hours too and I respect them totally, but surely part of their training must cover bedside manner as this is crucial to the overall well-being of the patient?

    Or is it a case of treat patients like s**t so that they vacate their bed ASAP?


  • #19
    papajimsmooth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 779 ✭✭✭papajimsmooth


    TBH im currently on a surgery rotation as part of my training and i cant say enough good things about the surgical consultants. They seem to really care about all their patients and do whatever they can to help them. They also love multi disciplinary teams and everyone from nurses to radiographers are listened to . Today for example, the surgeon finished up a 4 hour surgery and his first act once he had changed was to ring the patients wife to tell her how the operation went and how her husband was doing.


  • #20
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    Poor treatment by a person in training is not the same thing.


  • #21
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    OP try looking at it from the consultants point of view. By the time they get to be a consultant, they have seen many, many patients. For a lot of them, the best way for them to do their job is to tune out emotionally and see patients with a cold, clinical eye. If they were to empathise with every single patient, then they would likely run out of emotional reserves themselves and suffer a breakdown.

    A friend of mine is a doctor. She worked on an 8 year old child who ended up dying and she found it so upsetting that she now only works with adults. Even with adults, she said that the only way she can do her job effectively, is to close off emotionally and treat the illness, rather than the patient.

    In a perfect world, all doctors and consultants would have wonderful people skills and make everyone feel comfortable but in the real world, they are people too. They study for years and work long hours, so they have to be more focused on the academic side of things, rather than the social. Ya sure some of them could brush up on their bed side manner but as long as they aren't making mistakes and using their clout to hide it, then I'll get them off.


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  • #22
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I fail to see what bedside manner has to do with bloody anything.

    Spoken like one of the aforementioned. Well done.
    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Fact of the matter is these men and women work ridiculously long hours saving peoples lives.

    There's that 'god' stuff again, glorifying people for your (misguided) perception of the difficulty of their job rather than for their professionalism, which entails technical as well as interpersonal skills. These "wise" men are highly paid for their "wisdom", which alas isn't wise enough to extend to even a remedial degree of social intelligence. The way you're going on you'd swear they were in a leper colony in deepest Africa doing their work for free.
    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I'd rather my Doctor was able to do his job than have to waste time doing compulsory "emotional" training because you're a precious bloody butterfly.

    There we go again with the false dichotomies. Surely if your supposedly great people were really great they'd have a broad enough range of intelligence to be good at the interpersonal side of their job as well as the technical side of it?
    Sonics2k wrote: »
    So they're not the most compassionate people in the world. Why don't you try forming an emotional attachment to dozens of people a day, many of whom WILL die soon and tell us how well you do.

    Why don't you develop your own intelligence sufficiently to be able to discuss this rationally rather than in obtuse nonsense such as that? It would be a damn sight better than displaying an inferiority complex to ignorant people simply because they are qualified for the technical side of their job.
    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Jesus christ of all the stupid things to complain about in this society, you choose the feckin Doctors.

    Ah, sorry about that. Maybe we should all just complain about precisely the things you complain about because they are the only things which are truly important? Yeah, like whether or not somebody should wear a tatoo. :rolleyes: Imagine that, medical consultants who happen to be ignorant to their patients should be exempt from criticism. Why in God's name this should be so is utterly unclear - oh, and "medical consultants with an awful bedside manner" are not synonymous with "doctors", no matter how bad your grasp of the English language is.


  • #23
    Mollywolly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 566 ✭✭✭Mollywolly


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    Poor treatment by a person in training is not the same thing.

    But if that person in training is never told that what he is doing isn't right, then isn't it possible that he/she will end up as a consultant with a terrible bedside manner :confused:


  • #24
    Hal Emmerich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭Hal Emmerich


    papajimsmooth wrote: »
    TBH im currently on a surgery rotation as part of my training and i cant say enough good things about the surgical consultants. They seem to really care about all their patients and do whatever they can to help them. They also love multi disciplinary teams and everyone from nurses to radiographers are listened to . Today for example, the surgeon finished up a 4 hour surgery and his first act once he had changed was to ring the patients wife to tell her how the operation went and how her husband was doing.
    :confused:

    Should he have went for a Round of Golf and left the Wife worrying for another 4 hours do you think?


  • #25
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,037 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Dionysus wrote: »
    Spoken like one of the aforementioned. Well done.
    Please explain to me exactly how a better bedside manner would improve a Consultants/Doctor's job, and be completely beneficial to me as a patient.


    Dionysus wrote: »
    There's that 'god' stuff again, glorifying people for your (misguided) perception of the difficulty of their job rather than for their professionalism, which entails technical as well as interpersonal skills. These "wise" men are highly paid for their "wisdom", which alas isn't wise enough to extend to even a remedial degree of social intelligence. The way you're going on you'd swear they were in a leper colony in deepest Africa doing their work for free.

    I didn't mention god, or show any signs that they deserve high praises for any "wisdom" or the like.
    However yes I do have huge respect for all Doctors and Nurses in this country. Same goes for my respect for Fire-fighters, Lifeguards, Paramedics and so on. They are truly hard-working people, working extreme hours and get little thanks in return.
    But please, do go on and tell me exactly how a Doctor being so much nicer and more caring will make it better for all of us.
    Dionysus wrote: »
    There we go again with the false dichotomies. Surely if your supposedly great people were really great they'd have a broad enough range of intelligence to be good at the interpersonal side of their job as well as the technical side of it?
    Now you've just generalised all Doctors and Consultants as having bad personal skills. Which is just plainly idiotic.
    But please once again, do tell me why exactly they need to be wonderful compassionate and caring.
    Is it not enough they're saving lives.


    Dionysus wrote: »
    Why don't you develop your own intelligence sufficiently to be able to discuss this rationally rather than in obtuse nonsense such as that? It would be a damn sight better than displaying an inferiority complex to ignorant people simply because they are qualified for the technical side of their job.
    It's always funny when people have to resort to personal insults in order to try and get a point across. It doesn't help your argument in the slightest.



    Dionysus wrote: »
    Ah, sorry about that. Maybe we should all just complain about precisely the things you complain about because they are the only things which are truly important? Yeah, like whether or not somebody should wear a tatoo. :rolleyes: Imagine that, medical consultants who happen to be ignorant to their patients should be exempt from criticism. Why in God's name this should be so is utterly unclear - oh, and "medical consultants with an awful bedside manner" are not synonymous with "doctors", no matter how bad your grasp of the English language is.

    Even better, resorting to a post search on a completely unrelated matter, which does not involve the country in any matter what so ever. How dare I give my opinion on a thread which topic was based around Tattoos on the TCG forums, and how dare I possibly disagree with your opinion here on this thread.

    So tell me dear fan, besides personal insults and post history. What other lows will you stoop to? <3


  • #26
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    Mollywolly wrote: »
    But if that person in training is never told that what he is doing isn't right, then isn't it possible that he/she will end up as a consultant with a terrible bedside manner :confused:

    Sorry your dead right Mollywolly and fair deuce to you for talking up.

    I just think that the op's assertion that the "vast fúcking majority of hospital consultants are cold, obnoxious, socially retarded arseholes of the highest order." was untrue and unfair. There are definately some that its true of but the majority are fair enough.
    My reply was I felt you were using your experience to back the above assertion up.

    Dionysus, think your being a little harsh on Soniks2k.

    I dont have sympathy for them working mad hours as their paid well for it but you have to realise they do those hours because they need to see too many patients and there are obviously going to be consequences for that.


  • #27
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,037 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    JustAThought wrote: »
    I was in a car crash ( hit & run; gOt the reg, guy skipped the country) & ended up with bad damage to my hand; amongst other things. Went to consultant in santry; was examined & then sat waiting as he unbelievably dictated several letters mid consultation into his dictaphone on other patients matters, while I was paying e200 for his time. This was midway through his assessment of me. Unbelievable.
    Requested him to stop and do his administration for other patients on his own time. He couldn't believe his ears that I'd dared to question him.

    The same clown recommended physio 3 times a week for the injury, & I asked for a recommendation; he dismissed me & told me to ask his secretary. I said that I was paying him e200 for his professional guidance and medical advice & would like to receive his personal view on a physio who specialised & who was familiar with my kind of treatment needed. He stared me out of it, left, and returned with a photocopied page from the golden pages.

    There is a big difference between basic manners and professional courtesy & the kind of arrogance and ignorant behaviour that customers have to endure.

    Thank God I could vote with my feet.

    Many people do not have that option.

    This guy was just a plain asshole really. Definitely not on


  • #28
    papajimsmooth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 779 ✭✭✭papajimsmooth


    Hal Emmerich wrote: »
    :confused:

    Should he have went for a Round of Golf and left the Wife worrying for another 4 hours do you think?

    After concentrating at that level for 4 hours and his first priority is to ensure that a patients spouse is not worrying any longer than she need be is hardly indicative of an asshole or a god complex.


  • #29
    dr gonzo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭dr gonzo


    OP youre spot on about wanting a doctor to have a bit of compassion for their patient when the person is probably very scared and potentially quite ill but the simple fact of the matter is these men and women are absolute experts in their fields and while you think their aloof attitude should be met with disgust i personally think they should be afforded every ounce of respect that we can give them. On top of working constantly at the top medical level in the country we must consider how long and tough the road was to reach that level.

    Yes some of them might seem cold and yes it would be preferable if they were not but should we interfere with how they do their job? fcuk no. They have a team under them who can interact with the patient far more. As long as the consultant is diagnosing properly and setting out the correct treatment plan, even if that only takes a minute or two of their time then thats fine i think.

    Though i understand your point completely OP, these people are not the same as the bankers or the lawyers you mentioned. The knowledge they have spent perhaps a large portion of their lives acquiring actually does save lives. On that point alone i think we can cut them some slack.


  • #30
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,967 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    They have to hold some sort of distance.
    If they get emotionally involved for every patient and learn about their families and background on a personal level then they will be burning themselves out in no time

    Best to be cold, clinical and precise.

    You can build a relationship with your GP and the consultants team of staff will be dealing with you.

    But the consultant could be making decisions and giving advise on percentages of survival and quality of life for patients, some of them terminal. Advising on experimental drugs and listing different procedures that have high failure rates or huge and painful side effects.

    You need the advise straight, no bull, not having decisions clouded by anything
    You'll get comfort and empathy from the nurse on the team

    The lad with the dictaphone was an ass however, that's not professional at all


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  • #31
    Hal Emmerich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭Hal Emmerich


    What sort of working hours are we talking here????


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