Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Iranian plot foiled to assassinate ambassador to USA

24567

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,670 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    Ok I'm going to try and steer away from all the Wis the US telling the truth or not" business and ask another question.

    What happens now? I mean are they waiting for a statement from Tehran, i'd like to hear what Iran has to say about it. Also surely this is more an attack on Saudi Arabia then the US. So i'd like to hear from them as well.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    jonsnow wrote: »
    Why would they target a saudi ambassador instead of less secure capitals...

    High profile figure, an advantage also being on American soil? Besides embarressment, gets killed in America, might cause a further rift in relations between USA and the Saudi's? America loses influence with Saudi's - Irans advantage to try extending their influence into the country?
    ...And thats just off the top of my head. Lord knows what reasons they do such things - and previously they have!

    jonsnow wrote: »
    ...why would they use a drug cartel to carry it out instead of their own well trained agents
    Thats an obvious one.
    Trying to distance themselves (failing miserably) from seen to directly involved?
    Cartel? Well now, there's the Americans trying to crack down on them too. They might have hoped the cartels effective people would have the skills while giving the Cartel change to hit back too at American aggression?
    "The enemy of my enemy, is my friend!"
    jonsnow wrote: »
    ...what would Iran gain from such a brazen action...
    * Embarrassment?
    * Cause division leading to their own influence extending?
    * Trying to draw the Intelligence community away from one direction with a feint into another?
    * Increase underlying tensions related to the "Arab Spring" to again, Iran's advantage?
    * As the Guardian reports (here):
    Leaked US State Department cables also make clear that the Saudi king, Abdullah, has repeatedly urged the US to "cut off the head of the snake" and attack Iran.

    Against that backdrop, the assassination of the Saudi ambassador in Washington, with mass American casualties and perhaps an attack on the Israeli embassy too, would have ensured that the region went up in flames.
    If the attack succeeded, it would set in train events dramatic enough to turn the rigid, dusty hierarchy of the clerical republic on its head, giving Ahmadinejad the chance to seize the advantage.

    Or the plotters could be fanatics inside the military establishment, bent on bringing the Revolutionary Guard to the top of the regime pyramid, beginning an open race to develop a nuclear weapon and confronting Israel directly.

    "If this is a bunch of crazies, then anything is possible," Baer said.
    jonsnow wrote: »
    The Iranians are very careful...
    They haven't been before and have been found out a number of times.
    This is possibly one more attempted action that comes in a long line of previous other ones - and lets not forget, this wouldn't be the first time they have by proxy or direct, killed another countries people!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,916 ✭✭✭RonMexico


    Are the Iranians dumb/crazy enough to hire some crackpot Mexican drug dealer to attempt such a thing?

    I like how the one story said it read like a Hollywood script. Yeah probably because that's what it is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,433 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    And so it begins. The World Police are out to entrap yet another victim.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    RonMexico wrote: »
    Are the Iranians dumb/crazy enough to hire some crackpot Mexican drug dealer to attempt such a thing?

    I like how the one story said it read like a Hollywood script. Yeah probably because that's what it is.

    You mean are they mad enough to use a drug Cartel, one infested with many highly trained killers responsible for deaths of thousands already, be willing to kill a few more innocent people for extra serious money?
    ...Plus they get a bonus of hitting back on American soil, at a country they hate?

    Do you seriously have to ask?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭fedor.2.


    Another war would be great for the American economy


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 662 ✭✭✭fran oconnor


    Sounds like a job for Team America. I hope they bomb the sh!te out of them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 724 ✭✭✭jonsnow


    Biggins wrote: »
    High profile figure, an advantage also being on American soil? Besides embarressment, gets killed in America, might cause a further rift in relations between USA and the Saudi's? America loses influence with Saudi's - Irans advantage to try extending their influence into the country?
    ...And thats just off the top of my head. Lord knows what reasons they do such things - and previously they have!



    Thats an obvious one.
    Trying to distance themselves (failing miserably) from seen to directly involved?
    Cartel? Well now, there's the Americans trying to crack down on them too. They might have hoped the cartels effective people would have the skills while giving the Cartel change to hit back too at American aggression?
    "The enemy of my enemy, is my friend!"


    * Embarrassment?
    * Cause division leading to their own influence extending?
    * Trying to draw the Intelligence community away from one direction with a feint into another?
    * Increase underlying tensions related to the "Arab Spring" to again, Iran's advantage?
    * As the Guardian reports (here):





    They haven't been before and have been found out a number of times.
    This is possibly one more attempted action that comes in a long line of previous other ones - and lets not forget, this wouldn't be the first time they have by proxy or direct, killed another countries people!

    The Guardian article you are quoting from actually proves my point.It indicates that if there was such a plot it was a fringe group within the Iranian security establishment and not a direct order from on high.

    The US accuses the Quds Force (QF), the external operations wing of Iran's Revolutionary Guard, of being behind the plot. Given the hierarchy of the Iranian regime, such a huge undertaking would have required a direct order from the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who personally controls the QF.

    Khamenei's involvement would be surprising, to say the least. Throughout his tenure – since the death of the Islamic republic's founder, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomenei in 1989 – he has shown himself to be highly cautious and devoted to entrenching the power of the clerical regime.

    Meir Javendafar, an Iranian-Israeli, said: "Khamenei's first priority is regime stability, and then a distant second, safeguarding the nuclear programme."



    The plot is also out of character for the QF. The unit is well-funded and has considerable freedom of action abroad.However, to extend those operations to US territory would represent a significant leap in scope and ambitions. The way the plot was conducted would also suggest that the ruthlessly efficiently QF had lost its touch, being clumsy enough to transfer money from accounts under its control directly to US bank accounts.

    Robert Baer, a former CIA agent with long experience of observing the QF, said: "This stinks to holy hell. The Quds Force are very good. They don't sit down with people they don't know and make a plot. They use proxies and they are professional about it. If Kassim Suleimani was coming after you or me, we would be dead. This is totally uncharacteristic of them."


    Exactly.They don,t sit down with informer riddled and inherently untrustworthy drug cartels and entrust them with a task requiring the level of skill and finesse to pull off a political assassination in washington.Is this how mossad go about their business when they plot a killing.No.Why would you expect the Iranians to act any differently.This whole thing stinks.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    jonsnow wrote: »
    ...They don't sit down with informer riddled and inherently untrustworthy drug cartels and entrust them with a task requiring the level of skill and finesse to pull off a political assassination in Washington. Is this how Mossad go about their business when they plot a killing?

    The Iranian agencies are FAR from having the overall skills of MOSSAD. To compare/say one is equal to the other would be very wrong.

    How would MOSSAD do it? A lot more quietly as they did when they killed a target in a hotel last year.
    jonsnow wrote: »
    ...Why would you expect the Iranians to act any differently.
    Since when has the present Iranian government actually acted rationally?
    Given their criminal actions against their own people - do you seriously think they are further worried about people beyond their own borders? Seriously?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭Andrew33


    Leftist wrote: »
    Doesn't matter, they're not irish if they are not citizens.

    Smcgie quote "I love the Irish. We never believe this horsesh1t without thinking twice.

    We are a great race. Its a shame we have 7million Irish decendants living in the US that swallow all without thinking once"

    Nobody but you stated anything about citizenship. I was pointing out that 40 million claimed to be of Irish descent, not 7 million.

    Read posts a little more thoroughly before you go on the offensive, and BTW it's a capital I for Irish.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭Andrew33


    Sykk wrote: »
    Ok so I suppose bank transfer evidence directly linked to the Iranian authorities isn't enough..

    People like you are so anti-American that someone could be caught with a sniper on the roof with a bag full of anthrax and sher "the government planted them there".

    Pfff

    Not anti American, just anti bullsh1t.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,670 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    RonMexico wrote: »
    Are the Iranians dumb/crazy enough to hire some crackpot Mexican drug dealer to attempt such a thing?

    I like how the one story said it read like a Hollywood script. Yeah probably because that's what it is.

    Let's not underestimate these Cartels. They're not just drug dealers you know.They happen to have a lot of trained killers in their organisations, hell a lot of these guys are proberly ex-army. But my point is, it's not such a crackpot plan when you think about how organised these people can be and ruthless as well. Tecnically they can be Mercenaries since they have no alliegence to anyone any only care about financial gain. So it would be quite easy to buy them off or hire some of their guys, and because they're in American they pose a huge threat which gives an overall advanage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 724 ✭✭✭jonsnow


    Biggins wrote: »
    The Iranian agencies are FAR from having the overall skills of MOSSAD. To compare/say one is equal to the other would be very wrong.

    How would MOSSAD do it? A lot more quietly as they did when they killed a target in a hotel last year.




    Since when has the present Iranian government actually acted rationally?
    Given their criminal actions against their own people - do you seriously think they are further worried about people beyond their own borders? Seriously?

    They mightn't have the skill sets of mossad but they are not far off.They are not so stupid and reckless as to trust a mexican cartel with a high-level international assassination in the US capital.The cartels themselves have been careful to keep most of their violence south of the border.They are not stupid either and don,t want to encourage a "killing pablo" taskforce.By the way Mossad are far from infallible themselves and have botched plenty of missions like the dubai one or shooting an innocent Palestinian waiter in norway.

    The Iranian government are capable of acting rationally and pragmatically.They are an evil regime but quite cautious and rational.I don,t buy the fox news "there's a madman on the loose" perspective but you can continue to if you wish.I seriously don,t think that they would care about killing people beyond their borders but I think that they would care about pissing the US off seriously.After the Iraq invasion they approached the us with a "truce" deal because they were so worried.I don,t think they would lightly enter into a plot which would leave their fingerprints all over it and would bring the might of the americans down on them.

    Now as the guardian article indicated it might be some halfbaked plot by some loony fringe-but then it did not have the blessing, support or resources necessary to ensure that it would ever succeed.Or as more likely it is some sort of false flag operation playing to some agenda we are unaware of.I,m not going to continue to debate this with you because we have such divergent views that it would be a waste of both of our time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    What would Iran stand to gain from this plot?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    jonsnow wrote: »
    I don't buy the fox news "there's a madman on the loose" perspective but you can continue to if you wish.

    * Who mentioned ANYTHING about Fox news?
    * Please don't try associating me with Fox News or espousing anything they might say!

    jonsnow wrote: »
    ...I think that they would care about pissing the US off seriously.

    Are you for real?
    Hasn't stopped them before when they have killed directly/indirectly American lives!
    Short memory?

    jonsnow wrote: »
    ...After the Iraq invasion they approached the us with a "truce" deal because they were so worried.
    ...And that was rejected because not just the Americans but others could see right through it!
    jonsnow wrote: »
    ...I don't think they would lightly enter into a plot which would leave their fingerprints all over it and would bring the might of the americans down on them.
    AGAIN, it hasn't stopped them before!
    jonsnow wrote: »
    ...I,m not going to continue to debate this with you because we have such divergent views that it would be a waste of both of our time.

    Gee, pardon me for trying to be rational and open-mined based on the actual evidence so far. Carry on with your 100% anti-American "They must be all lying" attitude!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    What would Iran stand to gain from this plot?

    Post 33.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭Wattle


    With the US enconomy being fcuked and all it might be cheaper to bomb the sh1it out of Mexico?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,797 ✭✭✭karma_


    Maybe I've just become an out and out cynic, but this smells like horseshít. I just can't take allegations made by the US seriously anymore at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,189 ✭✭✭uncle_sam_ie


    Why would the Los Zetas cartell agree to such a deal which would make it a U.S. law enforcement target for just $1.5 million when their real business makes billions. They story is BS.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    The hawks in Washington & their acolytes in the more pliant sections of the media have been sounding out an Iranian invasion/war for several years now, so this latest bit of guff comes as no surprise. I take it with a pinch of salt.

    There's a lot of good things out of America to cherish and believe in. This latest story is not one of them.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,037 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    It wouldn't hugely surprise me if the U.S. and Iran went to war it's been coming for a long long time, however, I have to admit this whole plot seems a little to perfect.

    It looks like something more out of a movie or an episode of 24.

    After the whole fiasco in Iraq I'd like to see something a lot more stable for evidence.

    edit:
    I also find it a bit convenient that all this happens right in the middle of the Occupy Wall Street and various other cities and serves a great distraction for the media.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    I can totally understand the skepticism - and its perfectly justified.
    The American government had done themselves no favors in the past.
    I however take each case - case by case. Its all we can do - and in this one, so far the weight of evidence and people involved, backed up with not just American supplied intelligence but maybe other countries too is saying there is just cause here for them to issue arrest warrants.
    So far no one has shown evidence to prove that this is all yet another conspiratorial campaign by a number of nations.

    A number of news reports have indicated why a cartel has been contacted/involved.
    A further hint also might be found in the latest edition of the New York Times:
    The alleged plot also included plans to pay the cartel, Los Zetas, to bomb the Israeli Embassy in Washington and the Saudi and Israeli Embassies in Argentina, according to a law enforcement official.

    The plotters also discussed a side deal between the Quds Force, part of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps, and Los Zetas to funnel tons of opium from the Middle East to Mexico, the official said.
    Source.


    The Americans themselves were supposedly skeptical themselves.
    Saudi Arabia and Iran are locked in a bitter regional rivalry, one that has intensified as they have jockeyed for influence since the political upheavals of the Arab Spring. The Saudi Embassy in Washington denounced the plot against the ambassador, Adel al-Jubeir, as “a despicable violation of international norms, standards and conventions.”

    Mr. Holder’s assertion and the F.B.I.’s account of official Iranian involvement in the plot, reportedly code-named “Chevrolet,” provoked puzzlement from specialists on Iran, who said it seemed unlikely that the government would back a brazen murder and bombing plan on American soil.

    Investigators, too, were initially skeptical about ties to Iran, officials said. They said, though, that the F.B.I. monitored calls to Iran about the plot and found money had been wired from a Quds Force bank account. In addition, the Iranian-American accused in the scheme, Mansour J. Arbabsiar, correctly identified a known Quds Force officer from a photo array, and his cousin — who he said recruited him for the plot — is another Quds official.

    Now if there is some plot by a U.S. agency in conspiratorial mode to taint Iran with this, I think they would hardly come out with the following: which would clearly undermine their efforts:
    It remained unclear, though, whether the plot was conceived by a rogue element or had approval from top officials of the Revolutionary Guards or the Iranian government.

    “It’s so outside their normal track of activity,” said a senior law enforcement official who had been involved in the investigation and would speak only on the condition of anonymity. “It’s a rogue plan or they’re using very different tactics. We just don’t know.”

    Even Clinton has expressed surprise at the turn of events:
    Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton expressed her incredulity in an interview with The Associated Press.

    “The idea that they would attempt to go to a Mexican drug cartel to solicit murder-for-hire to kill the Saudi ambassador, nobody could make that up, right?” she asked, also saying that the plot “crosses a line that Iran needs to be held to account for.”

    So while indeed, America can have its doubters (with justification), its ALSO hardly beyond the realms of open thinking that just sometimes, these crazy things do actually happen!

    Background details:
    The case began in May, when a Drug Enforcement Administration informant with ties to high-level leaders of Los Zetas told agents of a bizarre conversation. He had been approached, he said, by an Iranian friend of his aunt’s in Corpus Christi — Mr. Arbabsiar — with a proposition to hire the cartel to carry out terrorist attacks inside the United States. Mr. Arbabsiar believed that the informant was an actual member of Los Zetas.

    Over the next two months, Mr. Arbabsiar and the informant worked out a deal under which Mr. Arbabsiar would pay $1.5 million to Los Zetas to kill the Saudi ambassador at a restaurant in Washington, officials said.

    The complaint quotes Mr. Arbabsiar as making conflicting statements about the possibility of bystander deaths; at one point he is said to say that killing the ambassador alone would be preferable, but on another occasion he said it would be “no big deal” if many others at the restaurant — possibly including United States senators — died in any bombing.

    There was never any risk, officials said, because the informant was working for the drug agency, and their meetings in Mexico and telephone conversations, were being recorded by law enforcement authorities.

    In early August, on a visit to Iran, Mr. Arbabsiar wired nearly $100,000 to the informant’s bank account as a down payment, according to court documents. In late September, he flew to Mexico City from Iran, intending to serve as human “collateral” to ensure that Los Zetas would be paid the rest of their money after killing the ambassador.

    But the government of Mexico, at the request of the United States, denied entry to Mr. Arbabsiar and put him on a commercial flight with a stopover in New York, where he was arrested.

    On Tuesday, the Justice Department released a letter to the court saying Mr. Arbabsiar had repeatedly waived his right to be quickly brought before a judge and to have a lawyer present during questioning. The letter said he had confessed to his role in the plot and had provided “extremely valuable intelligence.”

    It could indeed be a more extreme element in the Iranian government - not that any further innocent government there is going to admit that some of their own are or were stupid and guilty...
    Experts on Iran expressed astonishment at both the apparently clumsy tradecraft and the uncertain goal of the intended mayhem on United States soil.

    Rasool Nafisi, an Iranian-American scholar who studies the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps, said he thought it unlikely that the plot was approved at a high level by Iranian officials. “It’s not typical of the Quds Force or the I.R.G.C. to operate in the U.S., for fear of retaliation,” Mr. Nafisi said. Iran’s last lethal operation on American soil, he said, was in 1980, when a critic of the Islamic government was murdered at his Bethesda, Md., home.

    Mr. Nafisi said it was conceivable that elements of the Revolutionary Guards might have concocted the plot without top-level approval, perhaps to prevent reconciliation between Iran and the United States.

    But Iran’s Islamic government has a long history of attempts to eliminate enemies living overseas, said Roya Hakakian, author of “Assassins of the Turquoise Palace,” a book on the murder of four Iranians in a Berlin restaurant in 1992. A German court found that the murders were approved at the highest levels of the Iranian government.

    The gunman in the Berlin killings was also accused of plotting to kill the Saudi ambassador to Sweden, Ms. Hakakian said.

    ...But then top heads in the Iranian government have been plenty crazy - and possibly stupid before!
    Sometimes - just sometimes, when there is smoke, there is actually fire too!

    Here is the legal criminal complaint (with statements of some involved) - one I presume backed up by evidence alone for it to be issued by a judge -thats unless he's too in on another supposedly U.S. conspiracy!

    See: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/10/11/us/Iran-Plot-Complaint-Doc-Viewer.html?ref=us


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭4leto


    They wont go to war with Iran, it would be a daunting task. But Israel maybe forced to if they continue with their nuclear plans.

    I laugh at further sanctions been imposed, they could cripple the country economically if the world wished. All we would have to do is not take their oil.

    Now that is not going to happen.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    4leto wrote: »
    They wont go to war with Iran, it would be a daunting task. But Israel maybe forced to if they continue with their nuclear plans.

    I laugh at further sanctions been imposed, they could cripple the country economically if the world wished. All we would have to do is not take their oil.

    Now that is not going to happen.

    I agree, the tanks will not be rolling nor will the bombs start landing in Irans capital via the U.S. or any other country in Europe.
    I suspect that those beyond the borders of Iran are playing a more quiet background 'war', be it attacking their infrastructure's in the form of viruses writing to attack specific equipment or by others using tried and tested tactics to undermine and destablise a government.

    The Americans in fact, have had to beg Israel already from doing something drastic.
    The last time Israel got worried they bombed a supposed nuclear plant some time back.
    The last thing America wants is to further give the mad Iranian government 'ammunition' to fire up its people in jingoism and give the religious zealots further reason and calling to incite the fringe elements with Irans own borders. The long term effects of that happening would reverberate for decades ahead alone.
    It would be a conventional war that there would be no winners on, short term or long term.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭General General


    Andrew33 wrote: »
    40 million americans claim Irish ancestors, FACT.

    When I see a statement or statements with a "FACT" ending like that, I always picture the poster with specks of white foam around the mouth on a flushed face that noone pays much attention & certainly all pay far too little respect from its point of view. How dare someone question you!
    Sykk wrote: »
    Iran at work again. A clear act of war.

    Wouldn't surprise me if it led to an invasion.

    Stuxnet was a clear act of war.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    It wouldn't hugely surprise me if the U.S. and Iran went to war it's been coming for a long long time, however, I have to admit this whole plot seems a little to perfect.
    America only goes to war with countries that can't fight back. From what I've heard Iran can fight back.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,037 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    ScumLord wrote: »
    America only goes to war with countries that can't fight back. From what I've heard Iran can fight back.

    Vietnam/Korea :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Local-womanizer


    ScumLord wrote: »
    America only goes to war with countries that can't fight back. From what I've heard Iran can fight back.

    What countries are these?

    Iraq had the 4th largest army in the world during Gulf war 1 and not far off that for 2.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭Brain Stroking


    Biggins wrote: »
    I can totally understand the skepticism - and its perfectly justified.
    The American government had done themselves no favors in the past.
    I however take each case - case by case. Its all we can do - and in this one, so far the weight of evidence and people involved, backed up with not just American supplied intelligence but maybe other countries too is saying there is just cause here for them to issue arrest warrants.
    So far no one has shown evidence to prove that this is all yet another conspiratorial campaign by a number of nations.

    A number of news reports have indicated why a cartel has been contacted/involved.
    A further hint also might be found in the latest edition of the New York Times:


    Source.


    The Americans themselves were supposedly skeptical themselves.



    Now if there is some plot by a U.S. agency in conspiratorial mode to taint Iran with this, I think they would hardly come out with the following: which would clearly undermine their efforts:



    Even Clinton has expressed surprise at the turn of events:



    So while indeed, America can have its doubters (with justification), its ALSO hardly beyond the realms of open thinking that just sometimes, these crazy things do actually happen!

    Background details:



    It could indeed be a more extreme element in the Iranian government - not that any further innocent government there is going to admit that some of their own are or were stupid and guilty...



    ...But then top heads in the Iranian government have been plenty crazy - and possibly stupid before!
    Sometimes - just sometimes, when there is smoke, there is actually fire too!

    Here is the legal criminal complaint (with statements of some involved) - one I presume backed up by evidence alone for it to be issued by a judge -thats unless he's too in on another supposedly U.S. conspiracy!

    See: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/10/11/us/Iran-Plot-Complaint-Doc-Viewer.html?ref=us

    Nothing to see here America. Go back to watching American Gladiators


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Nothing to see here America. Go back to watching American Gladiators

    Aye, when all else fails and you can't reasonably have a debate/discussion, come out with a stupid irrelevant statement like that.
    See my signature. Have a nice day.


Advertisement
Advertisement