Is Irish Academia becoming a money making racket?

Bannasidhe · 12-10-2011 01:08AM

DeepSleeper wrote: »

I don't think it is a money-making racket, but one could argue that Irish universities suffer greatly from understaffing - the staff-student ratios in some fields / institutions are nuts when compared to those in the UK. Behind this problem lies the many pay rises given to Irish university academics over the last decade or two - Irish academics are now much more expensive than British academics, so we can't afford to employ as many staff.

Irish universities are now in an awkward corner because they need more lecturers at the new lower salary scales (say, 1 new appointment for every 4 existing) - this would have an instant positive impact on the ratings for Irish universities (through the staff-student ratio element of the rankings) but would also allow all staff members more time to increase their research output, leading in a few years to further rating improvements. But they can't do this because they can't afford them, and with student numbers set to rise and rise, the situation will only get worse until fees are introduced (with the necessary finely graduated grants system too of course).

This IMHO is the solution and is far more likely to succeed than Tom Boland's coherent set of interlocking, mission-specific institutions blah blah blah

Even if they could afford them - they cannot hire them due to the recruiting ban. In addition, entry level non-tenured teaching contracts have been slashed across the boards. Universities such as UCC employ as many admin staff as teaching staff.

I taught in an Irish university - and yes, standards have fallen. People who 4/5 years ago would have failed are now being passed - by order from above. Applicants for post-grad courses were expected to have a First or high 2.1 - now they are being accepted with a 2.2. By order from above.

I heard Áine Hyland - Chair of the International Advisory Board of the National Academy for the Integration of Research and Teaching and Learning - last week claiming there is no evidence that increased class sizes impacts on learning in Irish universities. This from a woman who has not taught a class since at least 1999 when she became Vice-President of UCC. She has never been faced with a lecture theatre of 450 students at a core module - of course those numbers impact on how much support the 4/5 lecturers who teach core modules can give students. Remember - that is just one year/one module. Multiply that across 3/4 years and add in the 6/8 other modules most of the teaching staff will also do.

TheyKnowMyIP · 12-10-2011 01:10AM

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

I was lucky enough to get a great education from an institution whose research was so so. This education allowed me to go on and study in an institution where research was the driving factor, the undergrads were considered little more than a nuisance whose only redeeming feature was to carry out projects based on the donkey work we didn't want to do ourselves.

It's tricky getting the balance right between the two but saying that research is the primary or sole motive for third level institutions is doing a bit of a disservice to students IMO.

I know it's a pretty hardline stance, but you mentioned it yourself. From my own experience, faculties don't really give a ****e about students, they just bring in numbers.

It's a shame that we associate "Higher" Education with third level though. That is to basically imply higher education is only available from these Institutions. This could not be further from the truth.

Pumping out masses of MBA's should not be a salient priority. Woah, I said salient. I feel dirty.

Einhard · 12-10-2011 01:11AM

andrew wrote: »

14% of our GDP :eek:

100% of 2010 tax receipts :eek:

starbelgrade · 12-10-2011 01:11AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

People who 4/5 years ago would have failed are now being passed - by order from above. Applicants for post-grad courses were expected to have a First or high 2.1 - now they are being accepted with a 2.2. By order from above.

You mean.. there is.. a .. God?

Tesco Massacre · 12-10-2011 01:12AM

andrew wrote: »

No, this is an actual money making racket in academia :P

I got my doctorate from there.

Bannasidhe · 12-10-2011 01:14AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

You mean.. there is.. a .. God?

Yup - They used to just plain old University Chancellors but then they were deified.

TheyKnowMyIP · 12-10-2011 01:15AM

Tesco Massacre wrote: »

I got my doctorate from there.

Doctor of rackatering? I love how the numbers are so vague, as to say a level 10 in x is the same as a level 10 in y. Standards vary across rooms in an Instituion, never mind entire faculties/Institutions.

Bannasidhe · 12-10-2011 01:16AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

I know it's a pretty hardline stance, but you mentioned it yourself. From my own experience, faculties don't really give a ****e about students, they just bring in numbers.

It's a shame that we associate "Higher" Education with third level though. That is to basically imply higher education is only available from these Institutions. This could not be further from the truth.

Pumping out masses of MBA's should not be a salient priority. Woah, I said salient. I feel dirty.

Some lecturers genuinely do care - the system soon crushes that kinda hippy crap out of you.

andrew · 12-10-2011 01:18AM

Tesco Massacre wrote: »

I got my doctorate from there.

Sorry, but it was probably doctored :pac:

I'm here all week, try the veal!

DeepSleeper · 12-10-2011 01:18AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Even if they could afford them - they cannot hire them due to the recruiting ban. In addition, entry level non-tenured teaching contracts have been slashed across the boards. Universities such as UCC employ as many admin staff as teaching staff.

I taught in an Irish university - and yes, standards have fallen. People who 4/5 years ago would have failed are now being passed - by order from above. Applicants for post-grad courses were expected to have a First or high 2.1 - now they are being accepted with a 2.2. By order from above.

I heard Áine Hyland - Chair of the International Advisory Board of the National Academy for the Integration of Research and Teaching and Learning - last week claiming there is no evidence that increased class sizes impacts on learning in Irish universities. This from a woman who has not taught a class since at least 1999 when she became Vice-President of UCC. She has never been faced with a lecture theatre of 450 students at a core module - of course those numbers impact on how much support the 4/5 lecturers who teach core modules can give them. Remember - that is just one year/one module. Multiply that across 3/4 years and add in the 6/8 other modules most of the teaching staff will also do.

Well the ban on recruitment is only a minor obstacle and could be lifted if the funds were there. I do agree with the rest of your post though - I too have heard of pressure on academics to pass poor students and the pressure to take all comers onto postgraduate courses has a direct impact on the quality of graduates - It also means that significantly greater input is needed from lecturers, as some weaker students require a massive personal effort from their mentors to get them over the line, all of which impacts negatively on research output...

I've also heard that senior management in an Irish university dismissed any possibility that ongoing year-on-year increases in undergraduate numbers (without matching increases in staff resources) could impact negatively on academic standards and the 'student experience' :rolleyes:

Cavehill Red · 12-10-2011 01:19AM

andrew wrote: »

No, this is an actual money making racket in academia :P

From the same pondlife who brought you the "Irish International University" (of Kuala Lumpur and Phnom Penh), which was shut down twice following exposes in the press here and complaints from the Irish ambassadors in Asia, only to spring up again a few weeks later once their bribes had been processed to local corrupt police's satisfaction.
Their only Irish connection was a rented office in Ballsbridge and one of their 'chancellors - chancer more like - claiming to be Baron of Knowth!
Sadly, people get sucked in by this crap all too often, especially in the third world where people are prepared to pay good money to get a Western-accredited degree.

TheyKnowMyIP · 12-10-2011 01:21AM

"Honorary Chancellor", Jeff Wooller, said that: "The whole thing's dodgy.

:pac:

I love hearing stuff like this

Cavehill Red · 12-10-2011 01:24AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

"Honorary Chancellor", Jeff Wooller, said that: "The whole thing's dodgy.

:pac:

I love hearing stuff like this

I don't as it undermines the reputation of Irish academia abroad. I was delighted to see them shut down twice, and dismayed to see them trading off the good name Irish education has each time they kicked off again.
In the end, a BBC crew monstered them in a documentary, so now their faces are known across Asia and the racket isn't as lucrative as before. Plus, they finally seem to have got the message to stop using 'Irish' or 'Ireland' in their BS 'university' titles. Poor ole Glastonbury is the new victim, it seems.

TheyKnowMyIP · 12-10-2011 01:31AM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I don't as it undermines the reputation of Irish academia abroad. I was delighted to see them shut down twice, and dismayed to see them trading off the good name Irish education has each time they kicked off again.
In the end, a BBC crew monstered them in a documentary, so now their faces are known across Asia and the racket isn't as lucrative as before. Plus, they finally seem to have got the message to stop using 'Irish' or 'Ireland' in their BS 'university' titles. Poor ole Glastonbury is the new victim, it seems.

Such is life. Dishonesty exists at every level, no matter how subtle. These are obviously bogus Institutions though, no "real" Irish college would contest that.

For all the faults, Irish Universities are competing in a very tough arena. Hell, the modern computer you are typing on is based on Booleen Algebra invented at UCC. Plenty of innovative research has come from Irish pastures, it's just we have sort of hit a brick wall at this point. Tough times.

Cavehill Red · 12-10-2011 01:40AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Such is life. Dishonesty exists at every level, no matter how subtle. These are obviously bogus Institutions though, no "real" Irish college would contest that.

For all the faults, Irish Universities are competing in a very tough arena. Hell, the modern computer you are typing on is based on Booleen Algebra invented at UCC. Plenty of innovative research has come from Irish pastures, it's just we have sort of hit a brick wall at this point. Tough times.

The Irish colleges are livid about it, needless to say. Australia ensures that SE Asian countries prevent bogus Aussie colleges on their turf stringently, and as a result they have a better reputation and a foothold in places like Singapore and Kuala Lumpur our universities greatly envy.
It is tough times for Irish universities, and you're also right to say that we have great intellectual resources here, even if third level is suffering similar grades inflation to the rest of education.
Funding is a major issue, and not one that can easily be resolved currently. One of the things that came out of the Farmleigh conference was the need to trade more strongly on our culture, and we have immense cultural capital to work with. Unfortunately, the current government cannot see beyond the narrow constraints of IT, hard science and finance as areas to support, as the Springboard programme illustrated recently.
I expect to see some 'study real subjects'-type comments in response to my opinion on this, but I think there is a lot to be said for funding our Arts and Humanities education much better. We're in a global education marketplace, and we have excellent traditions in the Arts and Humanities that we neglect at our peril.

Bannasidhe · 12-10-2011 01:41AM

Add to that the fact that increased student numbers means increased floods of excuses for why I have done feck all work emails/phone calls/office visits eventually just wares you down. It is honestly soul destroying.

If we take 3rd year seminars for example - in the dept/university I taught it they were restricted to a max of 13 - by last year that was up to 20. Each seminar was worth 10 credits and had a compulsory continual assessment that was worth 20% of the over all mark for that module.

Of that 20 - we never saw 4 of them. Ever. But one did email in April to say she had a sick note for October and could we just give her a pass. She appealed her fail.

6 came to the first and last seminar. One emailed just before his dissertation was due to say his granny had just died and he was too upset to write. Same guy had sent the same email to every lecturer but during different months... Granny apparently died in Oct/Nov/Jan/Feb and March...she must have recovered briefly in April only to tragically die again in May, just in time for the final exams :rolleyes:

4 more had a 50% attendance.

4 had a 75% attendance.

2 had 100% - Strangely enough, they both got the highest marks - a First and a very high 2.1.

(Final marks have to be approved by External assessors - they can and do change them).

That was one small class of 3rd years taking a module that counted for 10 credits out of the 60 needed for the year!

It's hard to keep caring when the students don't give a ****e

Tesco Massacre · 12-10-2011 01:44AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Add to that the fact that increased student numbers means increased floods of excuses for why I have done feck all work emails/phone calls/office visits eventually just wares you down. It is honestly soul destroying.

If we take 3rd year seminars for example - in the dept/university I taught it they were restricted to a max of 13 - by last year that was up to 20. Each seminar was worth 10 credits and had a compulsory continual assessment that was worth 20% of the over all mark for that module.

Of that 20 - we never saw 4 of them. Ever. But one did email in April to say she had a sick note for October and could we just give her a pass. She appealed her fail.

6 came to the first and last seminar. One emailed just before his dissertation was due to say his granny had just died and he was too upset to write. Same guy had sent the same email to every lecturer but during different months... Granny apparently died in Oct/Nov/Jan/Feb and March...she must have recovered briefly in April only to tragically die again in May, just in time for the final exams :rolleyes:

His name wasn't Stephen Ireland, was it?

Turtwig · 12-10-2011 01:47AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Add to that the fact that increased student numbers means increased floods of excuses for why I have done feck all work emails/phone calls/office visits eventually just wares you down. It is honestly soul destroying.

If we take 3rd year seminars for example - in the dept/university I taught it they were restricted to a max of 13 - by last year that was up to 20. Each seminar was worth 10 credits and had a compulsory continual assessment that was worth 20% of the over all mark for that module.
...
It's hard to keep caring when the students don't give a ****e

In all honesty that's the big flaw with the university system and Irish Mindset. Higher Education is seen by most as a means to getting a job. Nothing more. That is probably my biggest reason for wanting fees reintroduced but I fear there is now the pop culture image of the university as a requirement for getting a job that people will still flock to universities anyways. It's shocking to see some people pick a science degree because that's where the jobs are even when they have no interest in the subject, put in little to no effort and constantly bicker on about how hard and stressful it is.

Cavehill Red · 12-10-2011 01:48AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Add to that the fact that increased student numbers means increased floods of excuses for why I have done feck all work emails/phone calls/office visits eventually just wares you down. It is honestly soul destroying.

If we take 3rd year seminars for example - in the dept/university I taught it they were restricted to a max of 13 - by last year that was up to 20. Each seminar was worth 10 credits and had a compulsory continual assessment that was worth 20% of the over all mark for that module.

Of that 20 - we never saw 4 of them. Ever. But one did email in April to say she had a sick note for October and could we just give her a pass. She appealed her fail.

6 came to the first and last seminar. One emailed just before his dissertation was due to say his granny had just died and he was too upset to write. Same guy had sent the same email to every lecturer but during different months... Granny apparently died in Oct/Nov/Jan/Feb and March...she must have recovered briefly in April only to tragically die again in May, just in time for the final exams :rolleyes:

4 more had a 50% attendance.

4 had a 75% attendance.

2 had 100% - Strangely enough, they both got the highest marks - a First and a very high 2.1.

(Final marks have to be approved by External assessors - they can and do change them).

That was one small class of 3rd years taking a module that counted for 10 credits out of the 60 needed for the year!

It's hard to keep caring when the students don't give a ****e

What pisses me off about that sort of information is that they were still being passed! When I did my undergrad a long time ago, out of a class of hundreds was 1 First class obtained and fewer than 20 2.1s, my own included. In the same course last year, more than 50% obtained 2.1s or higher, and the course is, to my mind, nowhere near as rigorous (less knowledge covered, in a less disciplined fashion, with less work required overall.) Yet the class of 2010 can mostly boast the same degree from the same institution where I had to sweat bullets and genuinely work my ass off to get that same grade.

Chuck Stone · 12-10-2011 01:50AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I taught in an Irish university - and yes, standards have fallen. People who 4/5 years ago would have failed are now being passed - by order from above. Applicants for post-grad courses were expected to have a First or high 2.1 - now they are being accepted with a 2.2. By order from above.

This ^^ is the problem. When the tax-payer is picking up the tab there is no incentive to be efficient - there is only incentive to grow and increase the number of students getting through as well as the wages of overpaid academics.

Let the user pay and and students and parents would be very carefull about their choices which in turn would make Universities serve those choices rather than their own interests.

Einhard · 12-10-2011 01:55AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

6 came to the first and last seminar. One emailed just before his dissertation was due to say his granny had just died and he was too upset to write. Same guy had sent the same email to every lecturer but during different months... Granny apparently died in Oct/Nov/Jan/Feb and March...she must have recovered briefly in April only to tragically die again in May, just in time for the final exams :rolleyes:

Maybe he's Mormon and his father was a polygamist. You're so insensitive!!:pac:

Bannasidhe · 12-10-2011 02:01AM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

What pisses me off about that sort of information is that they were still being passed! When I did my undergrad a long time ago, out of a class of hundreds was 1 First class obtained and fewer than 20 2.1s, my own included. In the same course last year, more than 50% obtained 2.1s or higher, and the course is, to my mind, nowhere near as rigorous (less knowledge covered, in a less disciplined fashion, with less work required overall.) Yet the class of 2010 can mostly boast the same degree from the same institution where I had to sweat bullets and genuinely work my ass off to get that same grade.

I hear you - and TBH we did fail more then half that shower, most of those who passed - they were bare passes - in the 40s. There were 2 x 2.1 and 1 x 1.1.

I was fortunate because I co-taught that course with a tenured senior lecturer with very high standards... We are still awaiting the outcome of the 6 appeals on-going, but the lecturers have no say in that process. If we are lucky someone might tell us the outcome - if we are unlucky its a bollocking for failing people.

On other occasions I was not so fortunate and was, literally, ordered to increase the marks I gave for 3rd year essays by 10% across the board. When I threatened to resign in protest - the dept increased the marks by 5%.
I hadn't changed my standards - the standards by which we were meant to judge had dropped.

Bannasidhe · 12-10-2011 02:02AM

Einhard wrote: »

Maybe he's Mormon and his father was a polygamist. You're so insensitive!!:pac:

I might buy that if the fecking eejit wasn't my son's friend on FB - for a Mormon he sure could paaaarrrrtyyyyyyy!

General General · 12-10-2011 02:03AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I hear you - and TBH we did fail more then half that shower, most of those who passed - they were bare passes - in the 40s. There were 2 x 2.1 and 1 x 1.1.

I was fortunate because I co-taught that course with a tenured senior lecturer with very high standards... We are still awaiting the outcome of the 6 appeals on-going, but the lecturers have no say in that process. If we are lucky someone might tell us the outcome - if we are unlucky its a bollocking for failing people.

On other occasions I was not so fortunate as was, literally, ordered to increase the marks I gave for 3rd year essays by 10% across the board. When I threatened to resign in protest - the dept increased the marks by 5%.
I hadn't changed my standards - the standards by which we were meant to judge had dropped.

In a world gone mad, one woman stood up for what was right...

Turtwig · 12-10-2011 02:03AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I might buy that if the fecking eejit wasn't my son's friend on FB - for a Mormon he sure could paaaarrrrtyyyyyyy!

End of the world stuff y'know.:)

TheyKnowMyIP · 12-10-2011 02:06AM

It worries me that politics plays such a large part in these Institutions. I despite politics. Grades should be awarded on merit, not what a Lecturer thinks about you.

Plautus · 12-10-2011 02:06AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I hear you - and TBH we did fail more then half that shower, most of those who passed - they were bare passes - in the 40s. There were 2 x 2.1 and 1 x 1.1.

I was fortunate because I co-taught that course with a tenured senior lecturer with very high standards... We are still awaiting the outcome of the 6 appeals on-going, but the lecturers have no say in that process. If we are lucky someone might tell us the outcome - if we are unlucky its a bollocking for failing people.

On other occasions I was not so fortunate and was, literally, ordered to increase the marks I gave for 3rd year essays by 10% across the board. When I threatened to resign in protest - the dept increased the marks by 5%.
I hadn't changed my standards - the standards by which we were meant to judge had dropped.

If you worked in the department I think you worked in, then it's thanks to people like you that my own First Class degree isn't completely devalued. You have my gratitude!

Bannasidhe · 12-10-2011 02:12AM

General General wrote: »

In a world gone mad, one woman stood up for what was right...

And had her full time contract cut....:o

Still doing seminars tho ...

Turtwig · 12-10-2011 02:13AM

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

It worries me that politics plays such a large part in these Institutions. I despite politics. Grades should be awarded on merit, not what a Lecturer thinks about you.

The problem is even merit itself is getting harder and harder to judge. A large proportion of courses seem to like a end of term exam that carries the highest weight of the marks á lá the leaving cert. It is no surprise that roté learning is becoming endemic among some students as they are merely carrying on the bad habits learned in secondary level education. Less focus on understanding more focus on acing exams! It's kind of depressing in many ways .

Einhard · 12-10-2011 02:16AM

Plautus wrote: »

If you worked in the department I think you worked in, then it's thanks to people like you that my own First Class degree isn't completely devalued. You have my gratitude!

Show off!

Is Irish Academia becoming a money making racket?

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