VO2Max tests

jahaco · 10-10-2011 02:02PM #1

So far I've been recommended all of TCD, UCD and DCU as the best places to have a VO2Max test done in the Dublin area. Any views out there? Also, would having exercise-induced asthma be any kind of impediment?

RacoonQueen · 10-10-2011 02:08PM

I was going to start a thread about this at the weekend. I'm planning on getting three of them done over the next few months. Only reports I've really got so far are on UCD.

jahaco · 10-10-2011 02:17PM

Yeah. If you get one, you need to follow up at least once or twice. So that's why it's a big decision. I'm running the Dublin marathon so am also wondering when is the optimum time to have the first, as well as which clinic I should go with. Think it's a really useful test

tunney · 10-10-2011 02:32PM

I've strong convictions as to the quality of testing in various labs but I will keep that to myself

(for once)

My question about vo2max testing would be "why?" What do you see as the point in the testing?

RacoonQueen · 10-10-2011 02:44PM

I want to do pre-op, shortly post-op and another one when I'm back training properly again. My inner-nerd wants to compare and contrast it.

I also won't do field tests on myself, I'd never have the discipline for that.

Edit: It's not like you to hold back tunney. Where would you not recommend? TBH this is really just a thought from me, but from what I've seen of UCD's tests the info the provide is very concise. Not as much a training tool for me at the moment as just wanting to experiment on myself...

jahaco · 10-10-2011 02:53PM

I think the test will be a helfpul indicator for heart rate targeting as well as the endurance calculator for carbo loading. I am always looking to improve performance. The test is supposed to be a useful indicator of what you are capable of.

TFBubendorfer · 10-10-2011 02:57PM

jahaco wrote: »

I think the test will be a helfpul indicator for heart rate targeting as well as the endurance calculator for carbo loading. I am always looking to improve performance. The test is supposed to be a useful indicator of what you are capable of.

I don't always agree with tunney, but I do on this occasion.

If you want an indicator for heart rate targeting, do a max heart rate test on the nearest track or hill.

VO2max test for carbo loading?

That's a new one, haven't heard that yet. How does a VO2max test help you with carbo loading (serious question)?

jahaco · 10-10-2011 03:05PM

Check out the endurance calculator on www.endurancecalculator.com. The test is one of the potential ingredients. I used the calculation (w/o the VO2max test) before the Berlin marathon this year and found that not only did I run a PB improvement by 14 minutes (although that could be down to better preparation overall anyway) from 3h30 to 3h15 but had no lactic acid build up during the race. the impression on the website is that the test would enable the calculator to provide a more accurate output, although I have to say I did quite well without it!

BobMac104 · 10-10-2011 03:42PM

Couldnt you calculate your vDOT and use this value to generate a VO2 max for yourself? It would save you actually doing the tests

emerald007 · 10-10-2011 03:58PM

I'm wondering is jahaco really asking about "lactate threshold testing" since vo2max doesn't by its self indicate that much. I did the lactate test in TCD in May and got a set of heart rate based training zones for my dublin marathon schedule. Are you aiming for dublin this or next year?

jahaco · 10-10-2011 04:19PM

Maybe. I will run Dublin this year and then train for a spring marathon. I will have run 4 this year. I am looking for anything that will help me improve!

tunney · 10-10-2011 04:23PM

"I'm going to rest up and then smack this test really hard and go for as long as I can and get the best result I can. I'm going to get my HR values and use those too."

Now what happens when you *aren't* rested and are fatigued?

Plus the odds are that the zones are calculated off blood lactate and not VO2max and you can replicate the results, for free, with an honest 30 minute time trial.

tunney · 10-10-2011 04:26PM

jahaco wrote: »

Maybe. I will run Dublin this year and then train for a spring marathon. I will have run 4 this year. I am looking for anything that will help me improve!

I read the paper there.

What pace you should run at as a function of your vo2max? So you will go out and run at this pace knowing that you should be fine and won't risk "hitting the wall"* and so should be fine to finish. Then why bother doing the race at all?

*Hate that phrase - hit the wall. You didn't train enough for the pace you went out at.

SWL · 10-10-2011 08:48PM

Why not use this as an indicator

http://www.runnersweb.com/running/vo2.shtml

RacoonQueen · 10-10-2011 10:19PM

I searched for threads on this at the weekend, seems a few people aren't too enthusiastic about Vo2 max testing. Any reason for this other than the fact you can test yourself? The results seem to be pretty concise and if you were to go for follow ups you'd surely get a good gauge of whether your training is working or not(yes, you can repeat your own tests to do the same thing).

I know there's a lot of tests you can do yourself to determine LT, Vo2 max, max HR etc and they're just as accurate as the ones you'd do in a lab.

You also get a number of other tests done while you're there, I'm quoting a bit here from a pm reply I got today;

In addition, we collect blood samples every 3 minutes to measure blood lactate concentration. Heart rate is also recorded throughout the test, in order to give you specific heart rate training zones based on your VO2 and lactate data.

Prior to testing you will undergo a medical examination including lung capacity tests, blood pressure, height, weight and body fat assessments. In addition we will run a full blood test for things like haemaglobin, RBC, WBC, haematocrit content, etc.

I'm not sure on the accuracy of the body fat assessments they do (as in if it's just that crap tanita hand held monitor or is it one of the many more sophisticated methods). For €60 thats not bad, my GP would charge me about €80 for lung capacity, blood pressure and blood tests alone, never mind the rest... :rolleyes:

I thought about getting it previously, and if I do go for three or four I may use the HR zones they give me in number the good ones as a training guide.

corny · 10-10-2011 10:37PM

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I searched for threads on this at the weekend, seems a few people aren't too enthusiastic about Vo2 max testing. Any reason for this other than the fact you can test yourself? The results seem to be pretty concise and if you were to go for follow ups you'd surely get a good gauge of whether you're training is working or not(yes, you can repeat your own tests to do the same thing).

Surely race performance is the be all and end all of what you're trying to improve and not biological indicators.

VO2Max is a poor predictor of running performance anyway. Capillary density, running economy and a myriad other poorly understood mechanisms all combine to make you run faster. I share the fascination with having a look through all the numbers but i'd question how necessary and relevant these tests are tbh.

RacoonQueen · 10-10-2011 10:54PM

corny wrote: »

VO2Max is a poor predictor of running performance anyway. Capillary density, running economy and a myriad other poorly understood mechanisms all combine to make you run faster. I share the fascination with having a look through all the numbers but i'd question how necessary and relevant these tests are tbh.

Firstly, my grammar makes my eyes hurt.

I suppose it depends on whether you're racing well or not doesn't it? My average pace over 10k is the same as my average pace over the half marathon...

I maintain that I didn't 'race' either one, my indicator is if just inside my comfort zone is faster than just inside my comfort zone used to be.

corny wrote: »

VO2Max is a poor predictor of running performance anyway. Capillary density, running economy and a myriad other poorly understood mechanisms all combine to make you run faster. I share the fascination with having a look through all the numbers but i'd question how necessary and relevant these tests are tbh.

The tests aren't necessary though are they? They're optional. I never HR train(if I take my HRM with me I have a quick look at the stats when I get home but never anything big, more relevant on the bike for me where I find it harder to gauge my effort level) and rarely train at set paces, I'm more of a train by feel kinda girl myself. I have a vauge range of paces I'd be trying to hit on interval sessions and tempo runs, but, I wouldn't be getting all worried about my easy run or recovery run pace. The stats and numbers are interesting though, my motivations behind it are different to jahaco's, but, I don't get why people seem to be 'against' the tests? If people want to do it, so what? You get a lot of info and other stats that field tests won't give you.

I definitely wouldn't have the discipline to test myself if it was for training purposes, a lot of people who do the tests themselves do it wrong as well.

A0 · 11-10-2011 07:34AM

jahaco wrote: »

So far I've been recommended all of TCD, UCD and DCU as the best places to have a VO2Max test done in the Dublin area. Any views out there? Also, would having exercise-induced asthma be any kind of impediment?

I've heard UCD tests were good. I had a look on their website, apparently their lab is accredited. I won't go for a VO2 max test only though, threshold test is more important I reckon. One of my mate did the threshold - VO2 max test and found it useful. I might do it before Christmas

Nope, exercise-induced asthma is not a problem.

ocnoc · 11-10-2011 08:29AM

Every year, some students need gunine pigs for there thesis or final year projects.
If you jump in with one of them, they give you a V02max test, lactic and whatever else is needed for their project- they get numbers to work with and you get your numbers. Everyone is happy!

Last year I did cold water immersion test for recovery (water at different temperatures), all very interesting.

tunney · 11-10-2011 09:27AM

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I searched for threads on this at the weekend, seems a few people aren't too enthusiastic about Vo2 max testing. Any reason for this other than the fact you can test yourself? The results seem to be pretty concise and if you were to go for follow ups you'd surely get a good gauge of whether your training is working or not(yes, you can repeat your own tests to do the same thing).

I know there's a lot of tests you can do yourself to determine LT, Vo2 max, max HR etc and they're just as accurate as the ones you'd do in a lab.

You also get a number of other tests done while you're there, I'm quoting a bit here from a pm reply I got today;

In addition, we collect blood samples every 3 minutes to measure blood lactate concentration. Heart rate is also recorded throughout the test, in order to give you specific heart rate training zones based on your VO2 and lactate data.

Prior to testing you will undergo a medical examination including lung capacity tests, blood pressure, height, weight and body fat assessments. In addition we will run a full blood test for things like haemaglobin, RBC, WBC, haematocrit content, etc.

I'm not sure on the accuracy of the body fat assessments they do (as in if it's just that crap tanita hand held monitor or is it one of the many more sophisticated methods). For €60 thats not bad, my GP would charge me about €80 for lung capacity, blood pressure and blood tests alone, never mind the rest... :rolleyes:

I thought about getting it previously, and if I do go for three or four I may use the HR zones they give me in number the good ones as a training guide.

I'm very much anti-vo2max tests in general but I've gotten more tests down (albeit sub max testing mainly) than most.

BF% should be done with a calipers or dexa. If its Tanita you are better off coming around to my house and I'll test you and weigh you in the bathroom and only charge a bag of haribo.

The haemaglobin, RBC, WBC, haematocrit content and the rest is interesting and can flag points of interest (like when your Hct comes back as 52%)

Why am I against them in general? People tend to get them because others got them. If you have something you wanted tested, understand why it should be tested, understand what knowing the values will bring to your training and racing and why its necessary to get it done in a lab rather than the field then go for it. If someone is wooly on any of the above odds are its not required.

TFBubendorfer · 11-10-2011 10:29AM

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I searched for threads on this at the weekend, seems a few people aren't too enthusiastic about Vo2 max testing. Any reason for this other than the fact you can test yourself? The results seem to be pretty concise and if you were to go for follow ups you'd surely get a good gauge of whether your training is working or not(yes, you can repeat your own tests to do the same thing).

I've been tempted a couple of times to get a test like that done, but it was only ever down to curiosity. In the end I never got anything done because I don't think I would come away with anything that would make me a better runner.

If they'd test me and then print out a tailor-made scientific training plan based on those numbers, that would be great. But in reality that's not going to happen. For the VO2max test they'd give me a certain number and since I already have a pretty good idea what it would be, what impact would it have on my training? I already know, without being strapped to a funny mask on a treadmill, that mine is somewhere around 55. If their test comes up with 54 or 56, does it help? No.

Same for lactate testing. I already have a pretty good idea what pace I can hold for an hour max. No need to prick my finger or ear every 3 minutes just to get a number that is going to change anyway as the training progresses.

sconhome · 11-10-2011 12:39PM

Had a full set of sports tests done in TCD a few years ago. I must dig out the range as the old memory is a bit sketchy now.

VO2 was one of them which was established as an aside while targetting my lactate threshold for running. They also had the options of lactate and power testing by using a bike set up on a turbo.

All the blood tests were carried out identifying the various components. I was told I had a naturally high iron content (probably due to lots or porter in my youth!) and to be careful of eating red meat as the levels were close to recommended limits.

What I found most beneficial was the post testing analysis and advice. By knowing my bodily capabilities & expectations in this snapshot, the sports scientists were able to formulate a winter training plan for my running and biking in order to benefit me most. The idea was to get a good winter training base and re test in the spring to readjust the plans for the racing season.

corny · 11-10-2011 01:06PM

amphkingwest wrote: »

I was told I had a naturally high iron content (probably due to lots or porter in my youth!) and to be careful of eating red meat as the levels were close to recommended limits.

Make sure you don't have haemochromatosis.

kingQuez · 11-10-2011 01:48PM

corny wrote: »

Make sure you don't have haemochromatosis.

Have you been watching house? its never haemochromatosis...

dev123 · 11-10-2011 01:55PM

kingQuez wrote: »

Have you been watching house? its never haemochromatosis...

It must be sarcoidosis so.....

kingQuez · 11-10-2011 02:08PM

So what's the overall idea with VO2 testing? From what I can gather they figure out your o2 uptake, and relate it back to heart rate so that you can use it as a basis for training/racing off?

I was reading through this and it seems they also use it to estimate your lactate threshold; so my question is how far out is an actual LT test in the lab based on blood from simply estimating it off your VO2 data?

The other interesting thing in that post about VO2 testing is that it will identify what level of energy you're getting from fat oxidation, which I guess they estimate as a function of o2 uptake? (and hence you get to use HR as a proxy measurement for it in practice, and it can give an indication of what nutrition you should be taking on during an event).

I've yet to figure out how all these bits of information go together...

ddel · 11-10-2011 03:19PM

I agree with the V02max being just a stat of where you're at as opposed to a tool you can use.

However, I think the lactate threshold figure is a brilliant weapon to have. I don't see it as a major benefit in faster training, but as a tool to develop your aerobic fitness and pinpoint efforts and paces for everything up to tempo sessions can be crucial. Also knowing you LT for tempo sessions (and not pushing beyond that level) will incraese fitness AND not stress the body to much so recovery will be quicker and as such fit in more quality work in a week/month.

I know personally with limited time to train and wanting to get as much bang for my buck from time available knowing my exact LT HR was a massive benefit to a lot of sessions. Even my easy or aerobic paces are worked off a more exact % of LT formula as opposed to a rougher max HR figure.

Raighne · 11-10-2011 05:45PM

My own belief is that VO2max testing is very interesting in retrospect. Less so ahead of time although it does give some clues that can be difficult to find out, particularly for novice runners, without this tool.

With VDOT calculators and similar tools out there, you don't really need to test to assess your fitness level as a race or properly executed time trial over almost any distance will tell you the same thing. VO2max is also not necessarily a performance indicator, there is an argument that top runners have a high VO2max BECAUSE they can run fast, not that they run fast because they have a high VO2max. In the end, its probably a little bit of both.

Lactate threshold testing is slightly more interesting, although you can find this simply by doing Lydiard style "Out and Back" workouts or otherwise learn how to use a Rate of Perceived Exertion table. Once you go over a certain level of exertion, you are almost certainly switched from aerobic pace to anaerobic pace. Your lactate threshold lies somewhere between the paces were that switch happened.

However, in retrospect the test is very interesting because it allows you to measure the effect of your training. Very experienced athletes with full knowledge of how to execute and interpret time trials can infer this without the test but sometimes there is no substitute for seeing the numbers (depending on your personality too).

As an example, over the years, we have been able to see the mmol/lactate per minute steadily reduce at certain paces. this is what you expect to see as an athlete getting fitter doing a lot of aerobic mileage so it merely confirms the expected result (something I would have figured out by doing a mainly aerobic race distance or workout as well). But by looking at the lactate thresholds position and the concentration of lactate beyond the threshold up to VO2max, I can see where my greatest need for fine-tuning is. Similarly, you can see whether quality training has started to erode your base by looking at whether lactate concentrations are increasing at aerobic paces and whether the lactate threshold is falling. A good coach or experienced athlete can figure these things out without a test as well, but personally I like to use both. Partly because I was educated in science and so naturally like looking at that type of quantitative evidence.

VO2Max tests

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