The ESB And Eirgrid can go f*ck themselves - Merge

joela · 07-10-2011 9:11pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Please, call me Micky.

I kinda like you as Mr Moderator in my head, akin to Mr Motivator I guess

loremolis · 07-10-2011 9:11pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Keep it friendly please or ignore each other.

Thanks.

I can be civil.

I don't think there is any need to ignore posts. We can all get along, can't we?

Bruthal · 07-10-2011 9:14pm

joela wrote: »

Wind farm developers underground cables, all at their own cost! I think the voltage is usually lower but I know of one case where they will have to underground a higher voltage but it is predominantly along roads. That is all I know about it, no idea of actual cost or distance.

That is one of the major factors if ug is ever considered. Along roads would be the prefered route if ug HV cables are used, as they are easier to access for the actual installation, and later fault finding and repairs and access of associated equipment. Also, any post installation digging activity is more likely to be properly planned and controlled along roads, where as on farmland it would be more random, and uncontrolled.

loremolis · 07-10-2011 9:19pm

Alexa Billions Pension wrote: »

More inaccuracy. Is this deliberate?

The builders of the network can choose to hold on to them if they wish. Most do hand them over because maintenance and repair then passes to ESB - a cost the owners do not wish to carry. Please please stick to the facts!

Are you stalking me?

Let it go, I've moved on.

The ESB are the greatest organisation ever. Fact!

joela · 07-10-2011 9:22pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

That is one of the major factors if ug is ever considered. Along roads would be the prefered route if ug HV cables are used, as they are easier to access for the actual installation, and later fault finding and repairs and access of associated equipment. Also, any post installation digging activity is more likely to be properly planned and controlled along roads, where as on farmland it would be more random, and uncontrolled.

I was almost afraid to write it in case someone jumped on me to try to PROVE I was wrong or that it meant ug could go anywhere but yes that is exactly what I thought too.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 07-10-2011 9:23pm

loremolis wrote: »

Are you stalking me?

Let it go, I've moved on.

The ESB are the greatest organisation ever. Fact!

Not stalking just preventing you subverting the truth. I can't abide people twisting facts for their own end. You apologised earlier for inaccuracies and yet you keep posting them. How can anybody form a decent opinion if you muddy the waters with untruths? Oh yes, let it go - when you are wrong or, more accurately, you are found out in an untruth. :rolleyes:

loremolis · 07-10-2011 9:30pm

Alexa Billions Pension wrote: »

Not stalking just preventing you subverting the truth. I can't abide people twisting facts for their own end. You apologised earlier for inaccuracies and yet you keep posting them. How can anybody form a decent opinion if you muddy the waters with untruths? Oh yes, let it go - when you are wrong or, more accurately, you are found out in an untruth. :rolleyes:

Is everything posted here 100% accurate? NO

Do you check every post on Boards.ie for inaccuracies? Probably not.

An untruth is a lie. Are you calling me a liar?

joela · 07-10-2011 9:32pm

Ok I'm gonna call Mr Motivator Moderator Micky if you two don't play nice, I'm tired, it is Friday, the Tullamore 1 has been freed and Ireland play rugby tomorrow at 6 frigging am.

carveone · 07-10-2011 9:34pm

loremolis wrote:

Let it go, I've moved on.

Where to? Pretty much all your posts since you joined boards.ie have been on this one topic.

carveone · 07-10-2011 9:36pm

joela wrote: »

Ireland play rugby tomorrow at 6 frigging am.

They do? Bugger this then, I'm wasting valuable drinking sleeping time

joela · 07-10-2011 9:36pm

carveone wrote: »

Where to? Pretty much all your posts since you joined boards.ie have been on this one topic.

really? About the ESB or Tullamore case?

joela · 07-10-2011 9:38pm

carveone wrote: »

They do? Bugger this then, I'm wasting valuable drinking sleeping time

lol, you not watching the riveting Ireland match tonight? It is on our TV but even the 10yr old is bored

loremolis · 07-10-2011 9:42pm

carveone wrote: »

Where to? Pretty much all your posts since you joined boards.ie have been on this one topic.

Hey, you must have missed this one:

loremolis wrote: »

"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you can't always be sure of their authenticity" - Abraham Lincoln

I got 21 thanks for that.

carveone · 07-10-2011 9:48pm

joella wrote:

really? About the ESB or Tullamore case?

Both. And Esb poles and stuff. Click on anyone's name and then "Find more posts".

loremolis wrote: »

Hey, you must have missed this one:

No, I didn't. I was tempted to apply it somewhere in this thread to maximise the irony but didn't get around to it. Having you thank one of my posts taking the piss out of you was irony enough

joela · 07-10-2011 9:51pm

Ok can I ask again, do I need to do anything about my concerns or should I not bother my backside?

loremolis · 07-10-2011 9:56pm

carveone wrote: »

Both. And Esb poles and stuff. Click on anyone's name and then "Find more posts".

No, I didn't. I was tempted to apply it somewhere in this thread to maximise the irony but didn't get around to it. Having you thank one of my posts taking the piss out of you was irony enough

Hey, I'm not unusual. Some people use this site for nothing but soccer.

Some of my posts on ESB stuff may be crappy, but all of my jokes are top quality.

I'm trying to kick the habit.

carveone · 07-10-2011 10:01pm

joela wrote: »

Ok can I ask again, do I need to do anything about my concerns or should I not bother my backside?

I don't know to be honest. It's a bit creepy that anyone can claim to be someone on facebook or twitter - somehow I doubt Teresa T has a Broadband connection at home (where would the cable go - boom! boom!) but someone could be acting with her knowledge.

I think Twitter or Facebook would shut it down if the person represented there complained. Who do you notify? I've no idea tbh...

loremolis · 07-10-2011 10:06pm

joela wrote: »

Ok can I ask again, do I need to do anything about my concerns or should I not bother my backside?

My original query on this was "What if it's true?"

What I should have said was, What if the twitter account was started by her niece or someone else close to her and it's authentic?

I appreciate that she was in prison when it was written but that doesn't mean that she didn't make a comment like that to her family.

If it's a legit twitter account and message then there is nothing to do.

If it's "protestors" then it's still not the worst thing that was ever said.

There were reports that her family was negotiating with the ESB while she was in prison. Who knows what was said at those meetings.

I wouldn't bother if I were you.

Chuck Stone · 07-10-2011 10:07pm

Nulty wrote: »

Private property isn't private then? You "own" your land until the government wants to use it for something? Bollocks. Reminds me of Hitchhikers Guide

Well you can say bollocks all you like but it is obvious that you haven't given the implications that absolute property rights would have. If property rights were absolute then every electric wire, water supply pipe, motorway and boreen, telephone line, every cable, every train route, every broadcast aerial, every mobile phone mast and the like would be an absolute nightmare and punitvely expensive to place.

I don't know about you but I kinda like modernity.

Zen65 · 07-10-2011 11:44pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If property rights were absolute then every electric wire, water supply pipe, motorway and boreen, telephone line, every cable, every train route, every broadcast aerial, every mobile phone mast and the like would be an absolute nightmare and punitvely expensive to place.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I was once involved in negotiating a wayleave/easement on behalf of somebody else with an ESB guy. In the course of the (very cordial, in fairness) discussion we chatted about his job & he told me that a large number of jobs he had been involved in where he had to cross lands to bring a 230V supply to a farmhouse/rural dwelling were problematic because neighbours had fallen out with each other and they would often refuse to let these local lines cross their farms because their neighbour would benefit (more usually, the neighbour's son/daughter because these were one-off houses). So in fairness having a bit of "clout" vested in companies like ESB is a good thing, as it stops people being able to deliberately prevent electricity supplies to others.

Z

Paparazzo · 07-10-2011 11:54pm

loremolis wrote: »

Is everything posted here 100% accurate? NO

Do you check every post on Boards.ie for inaccuracies? Probably not.

An untruth is a lie. Are you calling me a liar?

I've pointed out a good few "made up" points in your posts. I could summarize them if you like, but "liar" seems to be a perfect description.
I still think "esb don't put the cables underground because they don't know how to" is one of the stupidest comments I've read on the internet.

Zen65 · 07-10-2011 11:59pm

loremolis wrote: »

Some of my posts on ESB stuff may be crappy, but all of my jokes are top quality.

I've seen your Abraham Lincoln joke, and it does deserve a "thumbs up" alright

. If I knew where to find the original post I'd give it a "thanks" officially.

Some of your other jokes didn't work though, because you delivered them too dead-pan, like you were being serious:

I'm here for honest debate and discussion.

I can assure you that I have obsessions, but the ESB isn't one of them

I'm not wrong and I can prove it.

Maybe I'm being unfair.... that last one did actually make me laugh

But seriously, wouldn't it be just a little bit funny if the protesters on Ms Treacy's land started damaging trees and she had to get a court order to have them evicted? Maybe I'm just evil to have had that thought!

Good night all,

Z

Capt'n Midnight · 08-10-2011 12:43am

robbie7730 wrote: »

That is one of the major factors if ug is ever considered. Along roads would be the prefered route if ug HV cables are used, as they are easier to access for the actual installation, and later fault finding and repairs and access of associated equipment. Also, any post installation digging activity is more likely to be properly planned and controlled along roads, where as on farmland it would be more random, and uncontrolled.

Don't forget that you have to cut across EVERY sideroad you meet, thanks to ribbon development you have to work around a lot of driveways , you have to take special provisions at bridges,

there are just too many cowboys out there with JCB's

overhead just bypasses all this

Freddie59 · 08-10-2011 11:40am

loremolis wrote: »

I've already accepted that underground is more expensive than overhead.

Just because I still question the figure of 8 times more expensive, doesn't mean that everyone else is automatically correct.

http://ec.europa.eu/energy/electricity/publications/doc/comp_cost_380kV_en.pdf

http://jcots.state.va.us/pdf/CostAnalysis.pdf

It's not 8 times - it's up to 25 times more expensive.

It's kinda hard to argue that these figures are not "automatically correct" as you put it. Which seems to be why you are continuously avoiding commenting on them.:)

loremolis · 08-10-2011 1:08pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

loremolis wrote: »

I've already accepted that underground is more expensive than overhead.

Just because I still question the figure of 8 times more expensive, doesn't mean that everyone else is automatically correct.

http://ec.europa.eu/energy/electricity/publications/doc/comp_cost_380kV_en.pdf

http://jcots.state.va.us/pdf/CostAnalysis.pdf

It's not 8 times - it's up to 25 times more expensive.

It's kinda hard to argue that these figures are not "automatically correct" as you put it. Which seems to be why you are continuously avoiding commenting on them.:)

I'll have a good look at the links you've posted and get back to you in full this evening.

08-10-2011 2:08pm

Listening to the Rté news the other night and it was claimed that some of the protesters who have set up camp on the site are professionals from the "shell to sea" campaign.

Zen65 · 08-10-2011 4:28pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

It's not 8 times - it's up to 25 times more expensive.

The ICF Report seems to only compare 400kV (or 380kV) overhead lines with an underground DC cable, which is a little bit unfair.

The underground DC technology does provide for simpler cable installation than does the equivalent AC underground cable (fewer cables, less insulation, and less metal-per-phase) but the cost of the inverter stations needed at each end drives the cost of any project up enormously. Typically DC underground cables are used for interconnection between different grids (for example the East-West interconnector being built by EirGrid is a DC cable on land and undersea) because the inverter stations have the added advantage of being able to connect grids without requiring synchronisation between phases nor matching of voltages.

But the DC technologies are not without problems. The biggest-ever electricity blackout in Ireland (or so I believe) occurred just a few years ago when the Moyle interconnector suffered a "glitch" and reversed the direction of flow, instantly dropping the system frequency in Ireland and causing a widespread power failure. Power was quickly restored and so it didn't get as much media attention as it otherwise might have.

Anyway..... all the reports that I've seen published do show that the cost of high-voltage cable is a multiple of the cost of overhead line, and gets higher with increasing voltage. If there was only a differential of some percentage points I'm sure the wizards in EirGrid / ESB would be willing to pay the difference to save themselves the grief.... after all the networks in cities usually are underground.

Now with my physics & engineering hat on: I would imagine that at high voltages it would be a problem to put bits of the network underground. Leave aside the obvious reason (everybody would say their bit was to go underground) but since cable has high capacitance and overhead wires have relatively high inductance, putting bits of cable & wire in series would lead to a circuit with a lot of circulating current & "ringing". I don't know how close to their voltage margins the cables are operating, but failure of the cables would surely be far more frequent if such circuits were constructed? I'm sure there are other technical reasons for not building circuits like that. Maybe somebody here who is more closely involved in such matters could educate me?

Z

loremolis · 08-10-2011 9:26pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

http://ec.europa.eu/energy/electricity/publications/doc/comp_cost_380kV_en.pdf

http://jcots.state.va.us/pdf/CostAnalysis.pdf

It's not 8 times - it's up to 25 times more expensive.

It's kinda hard to argue that these figures are not "automatically correct" as you put it. Which seems to be why you are continuously avoiding commenting on them.:)

My initial thought on this was that the ESB were not capable of underground the lines that they are placing overground and that the cost of undergrounding was only 2 or 3 times greater than overhead lines.

I can now see that undergrounding any distance of high voltage electricity line poses serious engineering and technical difficulties which would jack up the cost enormously.

I hadn't considered the obstacles that an underground electricity line across open countryside would encounter. Crossing canals. rivers, motorways, drainage ditches, other services, etc. would all add significantly to the difficulty and the cost.

Even putting the a HV line along a road would be a far greater job than overhead.

As many posts here have pointed out, overhead is simpler, quicker and cheaper.

In relation to the figures you've provided:

The smaller document clearly suggests that underground is between 6 and 8 times more expensive.

The larger ICF document (page 5) also suggests that underground is 8 times more expensive.

The 25 times more expensive figures in the ICF report relate to lines in heavily populated areas and areas with difficult topography.

I fully accept your point and I'll be careful not to jump to conclusions in the future.

On a related matter. Ms. Treacy has asked the ESB to underground the line across her land.

Leaving aside the issue of trees and roots, can the line be dropped off an overhead system into an underground system and back up to an overhead system as simply as that?

The Eirgrid guy on Primetime never suggested that it wasn't possible but I recall hearing that there was a technical difficluty with moving from overhead to underground and back up again.

Paparazzo · 08-10-2011 11:29pm

loremolis wrote: »

Leaving aside the issue of trees and roots, can the line be dropped off an overhead system into an underground system and back up to an overhead system as simply as that?

Yes it can be done. It's common across motorways, and when a group of houses are built under a line it's common for the line to be converted to underground for a single span.

Davy · 09-10-2011 12:51am

loremolis wrote: »

Leaving aside the issue of trees and roots, can the line be dropped off an overhead system into an underground system and back up to an overhead system as simply as that?

The Eirgrid guy on Primetime never suggested that it wasn't possible but I recall hearing that there was a technical difficluty with moving from overhead to underground and back up again.

Paparazzo wrote: »

Yes it can be done. It's common across motorways, and when a group of houses are built under a line it's common for the line to be converted to underground for a single span.

Its not common for 110kv. Its easy to do for 10kv or not to bad for 38kv but 110kv is a whole lot bigger. A pylon would have to be built on both ends for it, and then put the cables up it, and make them off into special connections. I wouldn't say its cheap either

The ESB And Eirgrid can go f*ck themselves - Merge

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