The ESB And Eirgrid can go f*ck themselves - Merge

joela · 06-10-2011 09:22PM

yourpics wrote: »

its not my job to price the actual cabling itself.
if u/g can be done by private companies on wind farms then why cant the esb do it?

I think that the difference is the windfarm companies are forced to absorb the cost as part of planning, often but not always, and the voltage is lower and as far as I understand it is then less costly and/or problematic in terms of maintenance and fault repairs?

yourpics · 06-10-2011 09:24PM

joela wrote: »

I think that the difference is the windfarm companies are forced to absorb the cost as part of planning, often but not always, and the voltage is lower and as far as I understand it is then less costly and/or problematic in terms of maintenance and fault repairs?

that bit is right anyway
i have only ever seen 1 cable dug up since 1994

GetWithIt · 06-10-2011 09:27PM

Alexa Billions Pension wrote: »

Tuppence ha'penny stuff to be honest.

yourpics wrote: »

Sorry can you state your point in proper english please

He's saying you're two bob.

joela · 06-10-2011 09:27PM

yourpics wrote: »

that bit is right anyway
i have only ever seen 1 cable dug up since 1994

I also think that often the distances are shorter and the therefore the possible constraints less of a challenge. I don't do the grid stuff (as you can tell) but have picked up a bit along the way and I think that is part of it anway. Oh and install less maintenance chambers along a low voltage route where as 110kV would require them more frequently?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 06-10-2011 09:28PM

joela wrote: »

AH now that is a bit harsh, the poster did outline the work he does and I don't think meant to mislead anyone.

Have you experience with ug cables? Interesting to hear your opinion as a professional in this particular situation?

He certainly did mislead. He does the digger and cable laying (glorified JCB work as I said) while trying make us believe 20k would provide a KM of cable. He does not know the difference between pricing for OH v UG

This line needs to go overhead as it would cost (you and me as customers - not ESB) about 4 times as much to install, more to repair in a fault and leave power security at risk when much slower repairs are needed. This is a HV line not some small Mv/Lv house service line.

yourpics · 06-10-2011 09:28PM

Further back on this thread, people were looking for real figures and costs, I have given some real figures for the groundwork element. So hopefully others can add what they know and we can see the real costs.

yourpics · 06-10-2011 09:30PM

Alexa Billions Pension wrote: »

He certainly did mislead. He does the digger and cable laying (glorified JCB work as I said) while trying make us believe 20k would provide a KM of cable. He does not know the difference between pricing for OH v UG

This line needs to go overhead as it would cost (you and me as customers - not ESB) about 4 times as much to install, more to repair in a fault and leave power security at risk when much slower repairs are needed. This is a HV line not some small Mv/Lv house service line.

I have explained fully what you get for the figures i produced. It was not my intention to mislead anyone.

Can you drive an excavator in deep bog?

joela · 06-10-2011 09:32PM

yourpics wrote: »

I have explained fully what you get for the figures i produced.

Can you drive an excavator in deep bog?

I have gotten my Dads tractor stuck in a bog once, well very wet peat ground

wee truck big driver · 06-10-2011 09:32PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I wonder whether whatever support exists for her is because she's a old woman? Or because the benefit to the public of what she's obstructing is a bit obscure? If she were obstructing the building of the children's hospital, would people have as much sympathy, even though the principal is the same?

How about if it was a 25-year-old man obstructing the building of the children's hospital? A 25-year-old unemployed man? A traveller?

I wonder how the support would shift.

shes fighting the system ....man.....of course its irrelevant that its joe soap who will foot the bill

joela · 06-10-2011 09:34PM

yourpics wrote: »

Further back on this thread, people were looking for real figures and costs, I have given some real figures for the groundwork element. So hopefully others can add what they know and we can see the real costs.

So your pics has given pricing for the ground work, anyone got figures for other elements of the ug route? It might help put it in context for those who don't believe the problems with ug.

yourpics · 06-10-2011 09:35PM

srameen might have figures for cables costs

joela · 06-10-2011 09:50PM

Mr Conlon said works had begun on Ms Treacy's land the day after she was committed to prison.
But he said the works were suspended at the request of the Irish Farmers' Association and discussions began with the IFA and Ms Treacy's family.

He said that works recommenced on 27 September with the consent of Ms Treacy's brother and sister, but that protesters then arrived at the site in such numbers that it was impossible to continue the work

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1006/treacyt.html

Looks like the blessing of the family had been given to the ESB/EirGrid by her family and not to the protestors as has been widely claimed. I think this lady has been preyed upon not by the semi-state but by the supposed liberators

Paparazzo · 06-10-2011 10:24PM

loremolis wrote: »

Because the ESB and Eirgrid only do overground lines, that's all they know.
From their engineers & surveyors, to the guys who erect the pylons, poles and lines, they only know overhead.

They arent set up for the type of work that undergrounding requires so they avoid it at all costs.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's union driven, but a lot of the ESB Networks workforce wouldn't know a trench from a hole in the ground.

It's probably just because they've done overhead for so long and when overhead started there wasn't the heavy machinery available for digging like today.

It's a vested interest because the people insisting that overhead is better and cheaper can't do anything else.

loremolis wrote: »

There is over 10,000 km of overhead high and medium voltage electricity line in this country.

You mention a few km in a city environment and that's supposed be a counter argument?

I didnt say they couldn't do underground at all, I said they weren't equipped or manned to do it on a large scale.

Keep thinking.

I thought I'd refresh your memory.

Most urban areas are underground. Anywhere you see minipillars there's underground. To say ESB are purposely doing overhead because they don't know how to do underground is ridiculous. Presumably you'll come up with some evidence to support this. We're still waiting on your evidence that says underground is the same price as overhead.
Here's another that says the opposite:
http://www.sceg.com/NR/rdonlyres/465E6534-2FFB-4069-BF84-81465AEEF887/0/%20Undergroundvs.pdf,

pljudge321 · 06-10-2011 10:47PM

Decent reading for those of you who like to back up arguments.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/89F75A41-0E32-4F70-B34E-5477E936B4D2/0/Independentstudytransmissioninfrastructure.pdf

joela · 06-10-2011 10:53PM

pljudge321 wrote: »

Decent reading for those of you who like to back up arguments.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/89F75A41-0E32-4F70-B34E-5477E936B4D2/0/Independentstudytransmissioninfrastructure.pdf

6.5.5 Habitat Loss
Loss of habitat is of greater concern during the construction phase of OHL and UGC. The amount
of habitat affected would be considerably less for OHL, being confined to pylon bases. Clearing
of land to accommodate UGC would cause much greater disturbance of habitats.

As many people had previously pointed out!

Actually I had a quick at that one day recently but didn't post the link because it is a government sponsored study carried out by independent consultants.

Just to add that EirGrid have put a lot of money into commissioning a lot of ecological studies and have produced in house guidance in relation to birds and powerlines and I am sure they have similar guidance for other aspects of powerline planning.

pljudge321 · 06-10-2011 11:07PM

joela wrote: »

6.5.5 Habitat Loss
Loss of habitat is of greater concern during the construction phase of OHL and UGC. The amount
of habitat affected would be considerably less for OHL, being confined to pylon bases. Clearing
of land to accommodate UGC would cause much greater disturbance of habitats.

As many people had previously pointed out!

Actually I had a quick at that one day recently but didn't post the link because it is a government sponsored study carried out by independent consultants.

Just to add that EirGrid have put a lot of money into commissioning a lot of ecological studies and have produced in house guidance in relation to birds and powerlines and I am sure they have similar guidance for other aspects of powerline planning.

I also find the argument that some people seem to be spinning that the predominance of overhead lines is simply down to greed on the ESB's part. This pretty much fails to recognise that ESB International are the main contractors for these projects, they are getting paid to do this. Putting in an underground cable is a larger capital project than an equivalent OHL so there would be a greater cost margin on the project so they would end up getting more money from it.

loremolis · 06-10-2011 11:10PM

joela wrote: »

6.5.5 Habitat Loss
Loss of habitat is of greater concern during the construction phase of OHL and UGC. The amount
of habitat affected would be considerably less for OHL, being confined to pylon bases. Clearing
of land to accommodate UGC would cause much greater disturbance of habitats.

As many people had previously pointed out!

Actually I had a quick at that one day recently but didn't post the link because it is a government sponsored study carried out by independent consultants.

Just to add that EirGrid have put a lot of money into commissioning a lot of ecological studies and have produced in house guidance in relation to birds and powerlines and I am sure they have similar guidance for other aspects of powerline planning.

Have you ever carried out work for the ESB or Eirgrid or an affiliated company?

The issue here isn't about what kind of trees they were or what kind of habitat they created.

The issue is about the woman who owns the land being deprived of her rights over that land because of the actions of state bodies.

They've really opened a can of worms by taking her on like this.

If she accepts an increased offer of compensation because of whats happened then it'll just encourage others to take a harder stand in order to increase the amount of compensation they get.

If she doesn't accept their offer then they will not get her back into prison and the line won't be erected.

I hope she appeals it to the Supreme Court. Some clarity over the rights of the landowner in this type of situation is badly needed.

loremolis · 06-10-2011 11:11PM

pljudge321 wrote: »

I also find the argument that some people seem to be spinning that the predominance of overhead lines is simply down to greed on the ESB's part. This pretty much fails to recognise that ESB International are the main contractors for these projects, they are getting paid to do this. Putting in an underground cable is a larger capital project than an equivalent OHL so there would be a greater cost margin on the project so they would end up getting more money from it.

And who do you think owns ESB International?

Paparazzo · 06-10-2011 11:15PM

loremolis wrote: »

Have you ever carried out work for the ESB or Eirgrid or an affiliated company?

The issue here isn't about what kind of trees they were or what kind of habitat they created.

The issue is about the woman who owns the land being deprived of her rights over that land because of the actions of state bodies.

They've really opened a can of worms by taking her on like this.

If she accepts an increased offer of compensation because of whats happened then it'll just encourage others to take a harder stand in order to increase the amount of compensation they get.

If she doesn't accept their offer then they will not get her back into prison and the line won't be erected.

I hope she appeals it to the Supreme Court. Some clarity over the rights of the landowner in this type of situation is badly needed.

What rights are these? The state has plenty of rights over the landowner.
One of these is that:
(9) Where the Board or an authorised undertaker is authorised by or under this section to place or retain any electric line across any land or to attach or retain any fixture on any building the Board or such authorised undertaker (as the case may be) may at any time enter on such land or building for the purpose of placing, repairing, or altering such line or such fixture or any line or apparatus supported by such fixture

Have you any evidence about your cheaper underground, or your claim that esb don't know how to do underground, and the esb make lines unnecessarily long to create work?

Monty Burnz · 06-10-2011 11:16PM

loremolis wrote: »

I hope she appeals it to the Supreme Court. Some clarity over the rights of the landowner in this type of situation is badly needed.

There is total clarity. She just refused to accept it.

joela · 06-10-2011 11:17PM

loremolis wrote: »

Have you ever carried out work for the ESB or Eirgrid or an affiliated company?

The issue here isn't about what kind of trees they were or what kind of habitat they created.

The issue is about the woman who owns the land being deprived of her rights over that land because of the actions of state bodies.

They've really opened a can of worms by taking her on like this.

If she accepts an increased offer of compensation because of whats happened then it'll just encourage others to take a harder stand in order to increase the amount of compensation they get.

If she doesn't accept their offer then they will not get her back into prison and the line won't be erected.

I hope she appeals it to the Supreme Court. Some clarity over the rights of the landowner in this type of situation is badly needed.

Oh you are back, did you bring the answers to those questions you were asked earlier? Oh no it doesn't look like it does it?

What is your motive in trying to establish who I work for? What has that got to do with anything, you've asked me a number of times now? You really have a bee in your bonnet don't you, you cannot understand how people can not care about all these claims of ownership etc. The long and the short of it is that cables go somewhere be it over or under ground and why is it ok to put a line through other land but not her land? By the way the protestors and indeed Ms Treacy were the ones making claims about habitat so hence my interest in that particular bit of the document. She hand planted it all don't you know:rolleyes:

pljudge321 · 06-10-2011 11:17PM

loremolis wrote: »

And who do you think owns ESB International?

The ESB.

marienbad · 06-10-2011 11:18PM

loremolis wrote: »

And who do you think owns ESB International?

Loremolis , before you ask anymore questions perhaps you might answer a few that I and others asked earlier , or do you just decide to ignore any that dont fit your narrative ?

joela · 06-10-2011 11:19PM

Paparazzo wrote: »

What rights are these? The state has plenty of rights over the landowner.
One of these is that:
(9) Where the Board or an authorised undertaker is authorised by or under this section to place or retain any electric line across any land or to attach or retain any fixture on any building the Board or such authorised undertaker (as the case may be) may at any time enter on such land or building for the purpose of placing, repairing, or altering such line or such fixture or any line or apparatus supported by such fixture

Have you any evidence about your cheaper underground, or your claim that esb don't know how to do underground, and the esb make lines unnecessarily long to create work?

The poster in question seems to make accusations and query how people make a livelihood but then scarpers when people ask questions.

Monty Burnz · 06-10-2011 11:20PM

marienbad wrote: »

Loremolis , before you ask anymore questions perhaps you might answer a few that I and others asked earlier , or do you just decide to ignore any that dont fit your narrative ?

Not just your questions...I'm still waiting for several things, including some sort of proof that the ESB asked for her to be sent to prison.

loremolis · 06-10-2011 11:26PM

Paparazzo wrote: »

I thought I'd refresh your memory.
Most urban areas are underground. Anywhere you see minipillars there's underground. To say ESB are purposely doing overhead because they don't know how to do underground is ridiculous. Presumably you'll come up with some evidence to support this. We're still waiting on your evidence that says underground is the same price as overhead.
Here's another that says the opposite:
http://www.sceg.com/NR/rdonlyres/465E6534-2FFB-4069-BF84-81465AEEF887/0/%20Undergroundvs.pdf,

We've been at corss purposes because I wasn't clear in my earlier post.

I meant transmission lines, not lower voltage distibution line.

Obviously the low voltage stuff for mini-pillars will be undergrounded, normally by the developer.

If you want my costings for overground cable, all I require is a cost for underground 110kv , per km or per 100 km, I don't mind.

The 20k suggested earlier is too low. Anyone got a realistic figure?

Monty Burnz · 06-10-2011 11:28PM

loremolis wrote: »

The 20k suggested earlier is too low. Anyone got a realistic figure?

The ESB will have costed all of this, so they'll know. What do they have to say about it?

yourpics · 06-10-2011 11:34PM

loremolis wrote: »

We've been at corss purposes because I wasn't clear in my earlier post.

I meant transmission lines, not lower voltage distibution line.

Obviously the low voltage stuff for mini-pillars will be undergrounded, normally by the developer.

If you want my costings for overground cable, all I require is a cost for underground 110kv , per km or per 100 km, I don't mind.

The 20k suggested earlier is too low. Anyone got a realistic figure?

I can reassure you that 20-22K per km in poor terrain is accurate for the groundworks not including the actual cost of purchasing the cables

loremolis · 06-10-2011 11:36PM

marienbad wrote: »

Loremolis , before you ask anymore questions perhaps you might answer a few that I and others asked earlier , or do you just decide to ignore any that dont fit your narrative ?

This is the last question you asked:

Might I ask you what you think is their motive for being so contrary ? Why in your view are they turning 20km into 32 km and all overground ?

I'm not sure what you're asking when you say "so contrary". Inever used the word "contrary".

It's not just my view. The map shown on Tuesdays Primetime clearly showed that the straight line route was 20km and the route they chose was over 30km.

Why they did this? Who knows for sure. The entire process is unregulated and unchecked so there is no independent body to verify any given route.

However, the ESB and Eirgrid have wasted millions of euro on overhead lines in the last few years so there is no reason to believe that the way they've dealt with this line is any different.

The public service doesn't do economical, on budget or on time.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1008/1224280633221.html

loremolis · 06-10-2011 11:56PM

joela wrote: »

Oh you are back, did you bring the answers to those questions you were asked earlier? Oh no it doesn't look like it does it?

What is your motive in trying to establish who I work for? What has that got to do with anything, you've asked me a number of times now? You really have a bee in your bonnet don't you, you cannot understand how people can not care about all these claims of ownership etc. The long and the short of it is that cables go somewhere be it over or under ground and why is it ok to put a line through other land but not her land? By the way the protestors and indeed Ms Treacy were the ones making claims about habitat so hence my interest in that particular bit of the document. She hand planted it all don't you know:rolleyes:

Sorry joela, I was out for a run. I didn't realise that you were waiting for me.

I don't particularly care who you work for. It just look like you work for them based on the anti-landowner/pro-ESB stance you've taken on this.

I asked you ages ago and you didn't answer and you still haven't answered. Don't you just hate it when people don't answer your questions.

You may not care about the ownership/land rights issue, but that because you probably don't own any.

I see it as a key part of this whole issue. Just because you don't understand it, don't get annoyed with me. I've offered to explain.

why is it ok to put a line through other land but not her land?

I never said that.

I don't like the way this woman has been treated by the ESB.
They've tried to walk all over her and her land without any regard for her rights.

I don't care about her trees. I care about her right to keep her trees if she wants to.

The ESB And Eirgrid can go f*ck themselves - Merge

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