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Growing your own firewood

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  • 01-10-2011 2:36am
    #1
    mountainy man
    Registered Users Posts: 981 ✭✭✭


    It's great to see this forum up and running so shiny and new.

    I have a smallholding of about two acres and keep a flock of hens and grow veggies and tree and bush fruit and have an ornamental garden, been here for five years now and right from the start I've been planting trees to supply myself with wood and benifit the wildlife. When I bought the place the only trees here were sitka spruce @ aprox 40 years old, now I have aprox 300 trees planted, mainly native broadleaved species.

    I plan to start planting a new area this winter its about quater of an acre ish, my goal is to get a coppice rotation going and to shelter the rest of the holding as it is a high windy place also lots of coilte plantations up here and a bit of biodiversity around the place wouldn't go amiss.

    Any one else doing similar, any thoughts?

    P.S. am a bit tree mad:D
    Tagged:


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    #2
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    mountainy man wrote: »
    It's great to see this forum up and running so shiny and new.

    I have a smallholding of about two acres and keep a flock of hens and grow veggies and tree and bush fruit and have an ornamental garden, been here for five years now and right from the start I've been planting trees to supply myself with wood and benifit the wildlife. When I bought the place the only trees here were sitka spruce @ aprox 40 years old, now I have aprox 300 trees planted, mainly native broadleaved species.

    I plan to start planting a new area this winter its about quater of an acre ish, my goal is to get a coppice rotation going and to shelter the rest of the holding as it is a high windy place also lots of coilte plantations up here and a bit of biodiversity around the place wouldn't go amiss.

    Any one else doing similar, any thoughts?

    P.S. am a bit tree mad:D


    I am in my third year of growing willow for my log gasifying boiler. I'm growing them from cuttings from local willow trees. I'm using a piece of cut away bogland which has been in the family for ages. I spray first with glyphosate and plant a long slip which has the advantage of being above the grass line. I let them establish and then cut them about 6 inches from the ground at the start of year 2. I'm hoping to have usable willow logs 2 to 4 inches in diameter by year 6.

    I have a reasonable supply of willow logs from overgrown hedges on my own farm (125 acres) which will keep me going until my little plantation can give a return. They take a good while to dry but they burn quite well in my air controlled Gasifying boiler. (They probably burn a lot faster in a stove, range or open fire which has less air control). While willow will not burn as good as ash or beech or oak, it establishes quite quickly, and you can have a useable coppice from a single willow shoot every 5 years. It takes 15 years growth in an ash plantation before you will get any returns.

    Having burned several different types of wood in my boiler over the last 2 years I have found that Ash is the best - it lights easy enough and burns for a long time. Oak is harder to light and the fire can often smoulder for a long time before it gives off heat - but when it does light, it burns for a long time. Beech is quite good too. Sika spruce burns the worst.

    Out of 10

    Ash = 10
    Oak = 9
    Beech = 8
    Sika Spruce = 5
    Willow = 6.5
    Birch = 7

    Hope that helps


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    #3
    St. Leibowitz
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭St. Leibowitz


    I'm planning to start planting a mix of ash and alder and willow in Jan or Feb. The aim will be to coppice them. One thing that concerns me. It looks like to fell any tree of any age, you need a felling licence. Is this just a formality, or can felling licences be withheld ?? I don't want to go to the expense of planting, and then discover that I can't get a felling licence. Just to note, I will be funding this completely myself. I'm not applying for any grants etc. I presume that that will make a difference.


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    #4
    mountainy man
    Registered Users Posts: 981 ✭✭✭mountainy man


    I am also planting on cut away bog mostly but am having major problems with getting white willow to grow here i don't think its the ground but the exposure of the site. in my first year I planted hundreds of willow slips and about 95% never grew , the remaining 5% are sickly and thetallest one is no more than 6 foot and thats after four years ish.

    I have had much better success with alder and what i think is lodgepole pine which seeds its self from the plantation next door, oak just sulks, ash is ok ish where the peat is thin and can get its roots into the limestone gravel below. have tried a few sweet cheshnut which seems to do very well suprisingly, beech also does well as does rowan.

    I am going to experiment with goat willow coppice, the goat willow is everywhere up here so beggars cant be choosers, it grows well and strong and gets to 3 inches in 3 years so is worth trying.

    sitka spruice is all i am burning at the moment and dont find it that bad so whenever i get a crop of something else hopefully i will be plesently supprised .

    as regarding the felling license , I have never heard of anyone getting/needing one so can't comment on that , just sounds like a money making exercise.


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    #5
    yourpics
    Closed Accounts Posts: 904 ✭✭✭yourpics


    St. Leibowitz wrote: »
    I'm planning to start planting a mix of ash and alder and willow in Jan or Feb. The aim will be to coppice them. One thing that concerns me. It looks like to fell any tree of any age, you need a felling licence. Is this just a formality, or can felling licences be withheld ?? I don't want to go to the expense of planting, and then discover that I can't get a felling licence. Just to note, I will be funding this completely myself. I'm not applying for any grants etc. I presume that that will make a difference.

    Its reasonably straight forward to get a felling licence, the main condition of it will be to replant the same number of trees that you fell.


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    #6
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    I wonder do you need a felling licence if you are going to coppice a tree?? In my example of the willow above, it will grow back once coppiced and should produce a useable crop every 5 years once established.


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    #7
    Askim
    Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭Askim


    yourpics wrote: »
    Its reasonably straight forward to get a felling licence, the main condition of it will be to replant the same number of trees that you fell.

    when do you need a felling license, is once a tree is s certain size ? ie over 9" diameter ??


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    #8
    St. Leibowitz
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭St. Leibowitz


    http://www.teagasc.ie/forestry/technical_info/felling_licences.asp

    ""Under Section 37 of the Forestry Act, 1946, it is illegal to uproot any tree over ten years old or to cut down any tree of any age (including trees which form part of a hedgerow), unless a Felling Notice has been lodged at the Garda Station nearest to the trees at least 21 days before felling commences.""

    Goes on to give certain exceptions, none of which would really apply to us in most cases.

    So, it's ILLEGAL to cut down ANY tree of ANY age essentially, unless a felling licence is obtained. The felling licence is free of charge, but my main concern is if one can be withheld. Or if a condition as stated earlier of replanting a tree for each cut down is imposed, that really doesn't suit a coppicing model. You're cutting a tree down, but not killing it, so eventually you'll run out of room for replanting. I can understand the need for a felling licence if you've received grants for planting or whatever, but when you don't receive anything, go to the expense of planting, and then have conditions imposed for harvesting, it doesn't seem right. It looks like a formality, but I don't want to take anything for granted. I called the Teagasc Forestry Advisor for my locality to discuss, but he was on leave. I'll put a call in tomorrow, and if he's still on leave, call an advisor for another region. I just want to know if a licence can be refused, and for what, and if conditions are imposed, what they can be.

    I know people have been felling trees for firewood since the start of time without licences, and many are unaware that they even need a licence. Where I am, I could probably do what I want, and never come to anyones attention, but that's not really the point of my question. I'd like to do things legally from the start. But as usual, if you try to do things right, apply for a licence, then have it refused or conditions imposed, you've just raised your head above the parapet and have it marked. You're on the "official radar".


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    #9
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Hi OP, Ash would be my no 1 choice for coppice, if it's a good site, on a poor (wet, peaty) site Alder would be my first choice. If the trees are within (I think) 50 feet of a house you won't need a felling licence, but I'm open to correction on it.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #10
    St. Leibowitz
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭St. Leibowitz


    blue5000 wrote: »
    Hi OP, Ash would be my no 1 choice for coppice, if it's a good site, on a poor (wet, peaty) site Alder would be my first choice. If the trees are within (I think) 50 feet of a house you won't need a felling licence, but I'm open to correction on it.

    Exemptions are (from the link above):

    The requirement for a felling licence for the uprooting or cutting down of trees does not apply where:
    • The tree in question is a hazel, apple, plum, damson, pear, or cherry tree grown for the value of its fruit or any ozier;
    • The tree in question is less than 100 feet from a dwelling other than a wall or temporary structure;
    • The tree in question is standing in a County or other Borough or an urban district (that is, within the boundaries of a town council, or city council area).
    Other exceptions apply in the case of local authority road construction, road safety and electricity supply operations.


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    #11
    William Powell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭William Powell


    St. Leibowitz wrote: »
    Exemptions are (from the link above):


    The requirement for a felling licence for the uprooting or cutting down of trees does not apply where:
    • The tree in question is a hazel, apple, plum, damson, pear, or cherry tree grown for the value of its fruit or any ozier;
    • The tree in question is less than 100 feet from a dwelling other than a wall or temporary structure;
    • The tree in question is standing in a County or other Borough or an urban district (that is, within the boundaries of a town council, or city council area).
    Other exceptions apply in the case of local authority road construction, road safety and electricity supply operations.


    Ozier? Is that an Irish spelling as I'd spell it osier as in willow.

    But should add I grow a few hundred willow as coppiced shelter belts. I treat our field more like a garden so have planted the willow in staggard rows through meter wide "mypex" type black woven matting. I've used about 15 different spp and the unnamed ones bought for biomas are certinaly the tallest fastest growing, the better ones made 8ft or more this year from being cut back to a foot high (would be 3 year old this year planted from 6-9inch "sets")


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    #12
    jinghong
    Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭jinghong


    Everyone, get yourself a copy of John Seymore's guide to self sufficiency. It is the bible for smallholders.

    He recommends ash too, coppicing after 10 yrs


    [MOD] A seperate thread had been created for discussing this book/author (John Seymore's guide to self sufficiency), please keep this thread on the subject of home-grown firewood. [/MOD]


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    #13
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Here's a well known ditty on the subject.[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]
    [/FONT]
    Logs to burn, logs to burn,
    Logs to save the coal a turn,
    Here's a word to make you wise,
    When you hear the woodsman cry.

    Beechwood fires burn bright and clear, Hornbeam blazes too,
    If the logs are kept a year, to season through and through.

    Oaken logs will warm you well, if they're old and dry,
    Larch logs of pinewood smell but the sparks will fly.

    Pine is good and so is Yew for warmth through wintry days,
    The Poplar and the Willow too, they take too long to blaze.

    Birch logs will burn too fast, Alder scarce at all,
    Chestnut logs are good to last, cut them in the fall.

    Holly logs will burn like wax, you should burn them green,
    Elm logs like smouldering flax, no flames with them are seen.

    Pear logs and Apple logs, they will scent your room,
    Cherry logs, across the dogs, they smell like flowers in bloom.

    Ash logs, so smooth and gray, burn them green or old,
    Buy up all that come your way they're worth their weight in gold.
    I chatted with WP on this subject over in woodcraft before this very welcome forum was born :)
    This traditional view of the merits of each timber should be taken with a large pinch of salt. Everyone agrees that Ash is the best wood of all to burn but unlike the composer, I find Birch to be an excellent firewood. And burn Holly green - no way, unless you want to make creosote.
    And burn Hornbeam or Yew - nope - far too valuable as timber.
    Willow is magical in my opinion - maybe the ultimate in renewable energy?


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    #14
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    slowburner wrote: »
    Here's a well known ditty on the subject.[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]
    [/FONT]I chatted with WP on this subject over in woodcraft before this very welcome forum was born :)
    This traditional view of the merits of each timber should be taken with a large pinch of salt. Everyone agrees that Ash is the best wood of all to burn but unlike the composer, I find Birch to be an excellent firewood. And burn Holly green - no way, unless you want to make creosote.
    And burn Hornbeam or Yew - nope - far too valuable as timber.
    Willow is magical in my opinion - maybe the ultimate in renewable energy?

    I find that birch sometimes has a tendency to over-dry and it becomes light and soft like cardboard where it burns out very fast. However, if you can get birch at 15% to 25% moisture, it is a good fuel.


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    #15
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    reilig wrote: »
    I find that birch sometimes has a tendency to over-dry and it becomes light and soft like cardboard where it burns out very fast. However, if you can get birch at 15% to 25% moisture, it is a good fuel.
    I use Birch quite a bit for wood turning. I sort of like to champion its use because this might take pressure off other native hardwoods. When dry it's actually a surprisingly hard wood, much harder than is common knowledge. It sounds to me as if your Birch is suffering in some way if it is going soft and cardboardy. It is very susceptible to rot and fungi and needs plenty of air circulating to season it. I suspect that this difficulty in seasoning is one of the reasons that it is just not available as timber, apart from one of the plies in top class plywood.
    Could it be that your birch was stored in a pile where air didn't circulate freely? Other woods don't suffer from being stored this way.


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    #16
    MOC1972
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭MOC1972


    How do you guys rate laurel they are heavy when cut but I have not put any in the stove yet will be next year.
    It grows fast in differant soils types.


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    #17
    William Powell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭William Powell


    MOC1972 wrote: »
    How do you guys rate laurel they are heavy when cut but I have not put any in the stove yet will be next year.
    It grows fast in differant soils types.

    I'd say good on parts ;)

    The wood is very hard and burns very well, kept me warm most of one winter a few years back. I've had logs of it 9inches in diameter from cutting back old hedges but I don't think you'd get anything like as much burning wood as you would from something with more upright growth. Once you have taken all the leaves and twiggy bits off you don't have much wood left.

    Edit>I'm thinking of old over grown laurel hadges here but I can remember taking away 4-5 trailer loads of leaves and twigs piled up as high as they'd go for only half a trailers worth of logs.


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    #18
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Laurel is a great wood to burn and is no loss to the biodiversity of the countryside either. Are they officially listed as an invasive species yet?
    I had to rejuvenate a hedge of it last spring and was lucky to get a fair amount of burning out of it.
    The rest of it I shredded, which I probably shouldn't have - it contains cyanide :eek:
    See here for more interesting info on poisonous plants;
    http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/atoz/prunus_laurocerasus.htm


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    #19
    greenfingers89
    Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭greenfingers89


    mountainy man wrote: »
    I am also planting on cut away bog mostly but am having major problems with getting white willow to grow here

    95% never grew ,

    I have had much better success with alder and what i think is lodgepole pine which seeds its self from the plantation next door, oak just sulks, ash is ok ish where the peat is thin and can get its roots into the limestone gravel below. have tried a few sweet cheshnut which seems to do very well suprisingly, beech also does well as does rowan.

    birch is your best bet on bog, would benefit from drainage, it should definitly do better than willow, alder tends to suffer from exposure and recently has been proven to suffer severe die back on sites which have stagnant water

    strongly reccommend a single application of ground rock phosphate at a rate of 250kg per hectare(100kg/acre) within the next few weeks if possible....if its quite a poor peat id follow this application up with an application of 18 6 12 in early april at about half the rate

    regards


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    #20
    greenfingers89
    Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭greenfingers89


    St. Leibowitz wrote: »
    I don't want to go to the expense of planting, and then discover that I can't get a felling licence. Just to note, I will be funding this completely myself. I'm not applying for any grants etc. I presume that that will make a difference.

    doesnt make any difference whether or not you get a grant to plant the trees, felling licence still applies, as mentioned

    however it was mentioned that you need to replant a tree for every tree you fell, this is not really true where you have an area of trees, i.e if you clear 1000 trees off 2 acres of ground you only have to replant the two acres of ground with reasonable spacing i.e you would get away with planting 500 trees

    also when you are coppicing willow you generally arnt felling trees over 10 years or greater than 7cm DBH, either way when your coppicing anything you wont be required to replant, you'll just have to allow the new growth(this is an accepted substitute for replanting)


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    #21
    greenfingers89
    Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭greenfingers89


    William Powell wrote: »
    Ozier? I've used about 15 different spp

    very good idea to reduce the risk of a disease wipeout


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    #22
    yourpics
    Closed Accounts Posts: 904 ✭✭✭yourpics


    greenfingers89 wrote: »
    doesnt make any difference whether or not you get a grant to plant the trees, felling licence still applies, as mentioned

    however it was mentioned that you need to replant a tree for every tree you fell, this is not really true where you have an area of trees, i.e if you clear 1000 trees off 2 acres of ground you only have to replant the two acres of ground with reasonable spacing i.e you would get away with planting 500 trees

    also when you are coppicing willow you generally arnt felling trees over 10 years or greater than 7cm DBH, either way when your coppicing anything you wont be required to replant, you'll just have to allow the new growth(this is an accepted substitute for replanting)

    1000 trees on 2 acres?

    I would recommend 1000 for every one acre


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    #23
    mountainy man
    Registered Users Posts: 981 ✭✭✭mountainy man


    greenfingers89 wrote: »
    birch is your best bet on bog, would benefit from drainage, it should definitly do better than willow, alder tends to suffer from exposure and recently has been proven to suffer severe die back on sites which have stagnant water

    strongly reccommend a single application of ground rock phosphate at a rate of 250kg per hectare(100kg/acre) within the next few weeks if possible....if its quite a poor peat id follow this application up with an application of 18 6 12 in early april at about half the rate

    regards

    Hi, have tried some birch and the silver birch really struggle but the downy birch does fine well so far anyway, don't have many consistantly wet areas so am not going to do any drainage also dont want to affect the native flora and fauna too much.

    I am not a fan of artificial fertilisers, I dont see them as necessary and they are unsustainable, prefer to use manure, compost and home made liquid fertilisers such as comfrey or nettle or even blood ,fish and bone. This makes me sound like a bit of a hippy but I don't care:D.
    What is ground rock phosphate btw?


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    #24
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    mountainy man wrote: »
    Hi, have tried some birch and the silver birch really struggle but the downy birch does fine well so far anyway, don't have many consistantly wet areas so am not going to do any drainage also dont want to affect the native flora and fauna too much.

    I am not a fan of artificial fertilisers, I dont see them as necessary and they are unsustainable, prefer to use manure, compost and home made liquid fertilisers such as comfrey or nettle or even blood ,fish and bone. This makes me sound like a bit of a hippy but I don't care:D.
    What is ground rock phosphate btw?
    Have you tried Alder? They fix nitrogen in the soil.


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    #25
    William Powell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭William Powell


    mountainy man wrote: »

    ... have tried a few sweet cheshnut which seems to do very well suprisingly, beech also does well as does rowan.

    Have you done a pH test of the "soil" your planting in because I'd associate sweet chestnut with alkaline soils over chalk same to a lesser extent beech.


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    #26
    greenfingers89
    Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭greenfingers89


    yourpics wrote: »
    1000 trees on 2 acres?

    I would recommend 1000 for every one acre

    just giving an example, im fully aware that planting rate under grant schemes is way higher....and for willow coppice id put approx 3000 on an acre if it was fertile ground


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    #27
    William Powell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭William Powell


    greenfingers89 wrote: »
    basically its a powder fertiliser about 12% phosphate, slow release, probably what the peat is deficient....you could try google seaweed fertiliser as there are a few operators in the country using these seaweed based compounds as alternatives to the oil based fertilisers you arn't a fan of

    Thought rock phosphate was what it says on the tin, rock with phospate in it, dug out of the ground ground up, not otherwise processed and used by organic gardens and farmers.


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    #28
    greenfingers89
    Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭greenfingers89


    William Powell wrote: »
    Thought rock phosphate was what it says on the tin, rock with phospate in it, dug out of the ground ground up, not otherwise processed and used by organic gardens and farmers.

    cant disagree with that, didnt mean to give the impression that grp was one of the oil based fertilisers


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    #29
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    William Powell wrote: »
    Have you done a pH test of the "soil" your planting in because I'd associate sweet chestnut with alkaline soils over chalk same to a lesser extent beech.
    I've sweet chestnuts growing strong here and the pH is ridiculously low - damn nearly enough to burn you. Beechs don't do half as well though - they are prima donnas.


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    #30
    William Powell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭William Powell


    slowburner wrote: »
    I've sweet chestnuts growing strong here and the pH is ridiculously low - damn nearly enough to burn you. Beechs don't do half as well though - they are prima donnas.

    I had 3 (Castaena Sativa) on the estate where I worked in the UK that were huge, 20ft or more around the base on acidic Bagshot Sand so can't say they only grow in alkaline conditions but all the UK Gardens I can think of where they have really large specimins are over chalk and the large areas of chestnut coppices I know of are all on chalk.

    But as a spp its another good one to add to the list for firewood as it coppices very well. The coppice wood if left long enough makes good durable fence posts and used in the UK split to make chestnut fenceing

    Interesting tree as when you see it in growing well on old estates you think the trees must be very old but you won't find many over 150years, its just a very fast grower when its happy.


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    #31
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Couldn't agree more. A much under utilised tree in this country, I think. Fast growing, durable, coppices well, splits well (cleft chestnut paling) and a fruit. What more could you ask for from a tree?
    I think it is more commonly called Spanish Chestnut in this neck of the woods.


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