Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

Your Airbag · 04-10-2011 07:47PM

At this stage I'm pretty sure Fergie will die in harness.

bucketybuck · 04-10-2011 08:57PM

Blatter wrote: »

How do you know that they did? And how do you know that Phelan doesn't?

I had no position on how good Phelan is. Nor do I have any intention of repeating the points in my previous post. The name of Steve McClaren was echoing around Europe in 1999, those of us there at the time know that, he was one of the most sought after young coaches in the game. The idea that nobody outside a club can know what a No.2 is doing or how effective he is, is rather shortsighted to be honest. Word gets around, the same as in any industry.

As a matter of fact, accepting the simple idea that people can have industry reputations, compare the following Utd assistant managers;

Brain Kidd - Offered managers role at Blackburn
Steve McClaren - Offered managers role at Middlesborough
Carlos Queiroz - Offered managers role at Real Madrid, and after his second spell the Portugal national coach role
Mike Phelan - ??????

Any offers for Phelan? What does that say about his industry reputation?

Mars Bar · 04-10-2011 09:00PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Any offers for Phelan? What does that say about his industry reputation?

Nothing really. He could be just happy where he is and has little intention of being a manager.

This debate is gonna go nowhere though coz none of us really know the ins and outs of being a professional coach/manager (and Football Manager doesn't count!).

Vanbis · 04-10-2011 09:01PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Mike Phelan - ??????

Any offers for Phelan? What does that say about his industry reputation?

Only a small club but Burnley had serious interest in appointing Mike Phelan which he turned down.

I'm not a big fan of his but the team/club has being successful in his time as assistant to SAF.

bucketybuck · 04-10-2011 09:09PM

Vanbis wrote: »

I'm not a big fan of his but the team/club has being successful in his time as assistant to SAF.

It most certainly has. Anyway, I did not come in here to critique Mike Phelan. I simply wanted to respond to the idea that nobody can tell how good an assistant manager is. In 1999, everybody was aware of how good McClaren was, the man who Fergie tried to get for months/years, and when he finally left Derby helped United to the holy grail within the year.

Vanbis · 04-10-2011 09:14PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

It most certainly has. Anyway, I did not come in here to critique Mike Phelan. I simply wanted to respond to the idea that nobody can tell how good an assistant manager is. In 1999, everybody was aware of how good McClaren was, the man who Fergie tried to get for months/years, and when he finally left Derby helped United to the holy grail within the year.

I'm with you on this too. McClaren was already big name within the game in regards his coaching ability as was Carlos Queiroz in europe. McCarlen was successful in Holland winning the league but than its not the premiership.

Mikeyt086 · 04-10-2011 09:19PM

I'll let Fergie pick who is fit to be his number two. And no other assistant manager in the world can rock shorts like Phelan.

homerjay2005 · 04-10-2011 09:20PM

flahavaj wrote: »

You seem to think that whether an assistant would be a good manager is a good criterion with which to judge them - in reality it has little relevance.

errm, no i am not, i mentioned i dont trust phelan to do the job if called upon and i trust them more, thats all i said. i have already said his lack of tactics are an issue for me.

i dont think phelan is as good as some of you think and i dont think im the first person to say he aint up to much. i think, since carlos Q has left, we are not as tactically strong, i attribute alot of our form away from home in europe, down to him and also, i think he has a strong part in our defensive strength over the past 6 years.

i cant see any legacy from phelan ever happening.

Blatter · 04-10-2011 09:55PM

Lads I think we have to get rid of Mike Phelan, I just can't stand him anymore. His name isn't stylish enough, and I can't see Real Madrid coming in for him anytime soon, which just isn't good enough.

I also don't like his appearance. He's overweight and has a 'yes man' look about him. He also didn't impress me doing interviews with the BBC. He didn't do anything wrong, but he didn't give off that Mourinho aura.

He was solely responsible for our Champions League final defeats in '09 & '11. He was also at fault for Norwich's golden chances at Old Trafford on Saturday. All down to his tactical ineptness, which is as clear as day to see from the stands.

Wenger might be good enough for the role if he leaves Arsenal in the next few months. Maybe we should give Carlo Ancelotti a ring, I think he;s currently unemployed. All I know is that Mike Phelan is nothing but a fraud who Ferguson seems happy to have as his lap dog.

bucketybuck · 04-10-2011 09:58PM

Blatter wrote: »

Lads I think we have to get rid of Mike Phelan, I just can't stand him anymore. His name isn't stylish enough, and I can't see Real Madrid coming in for him anytime soon, which just isn't good enough.

I also don't like his appearance. He's overweight and has a 'yes man' look about him. He also didn't impress me doing interviews with the BBC. He didn't do anything wrong, but he didn't give off that Mourinho aura.

He was solely responsible for our Champions League final defeats in '09 & '11. He was also at fault for Norwich's golden chances at Old Trafford on Saturday. All down to his tactical ineptness, which is as clear as day to see from the stands.

Wenger might be good enough for the role if he leaves Arsenal in the next few months. Maybe we should give Carlo Ancelotti a ring, I think he;s currently unemployed. All I know is that Mike Phelan is nothing but a fraud who Ferguson seems happy to have as his lap dog.

Personally, had I written this I would have realised after about two lines that it was not nearly as witty as you think it is, and would have tried to make my point another way.

Blatter · 04-10-2011 10:04PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Personally, had I written this I would have realised after about two lines that it was not nearly as witty as you think it is, and would have tried to make my point another way.

The thing is, there is no real point to make. It's just absolute nonsense from Homer to put forward a motion that Phelan should be replaced.

And it may not be witty, but I wouldn't say it's too far off from what's going inside his head;)

flahavaj · 04-10-2011 10:08PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

errm, no i am not, i mentioned i dont trust phelan to do the job if called upon and i trust them more, thats all i said. i have already said his lack of tactics are an issue for me.

i dont think phelan is as good as some of you think and i dont think im the first person to say he aint up to much. i think, since carlos Q has left, we are not as tactically strong, i attribute alot of our form away from home in europe, down to him and also, i think he has a strong part in our defensive strength over the past 6 years.

i cant see any legacy from phelan ever happening.

What are you basing his "lack of tactics" upon????

For all your talk of Carlos Queiroz's supposed tactical acumen, we've been in two European finals since he left- why does Phelan not get credit for this?

You reference how good we are defenively, and give Queiroz credit for it, yet you fail to note that we have continued to be excellent at the back with Phelan in the role.

Iseems to me like you've simply decided he's not up to it based on no factual evidence whatsoever. A very odd and unfair stance to take.

Blatter · 04-10-2011 10:16PM

flahavaj wrote: »

What are you basing his "lack of tactics" upon????

For all your talk of Carlos Queiroz's supposed tactical acumen, we've been in two European finals since he left- why does Phelan not get credit for this?

You reference how good we are defenively, and give Queiroz credit for it, yet you fail to note that we have continued to be excellent at the back with Phelan in the role.

Iseems to me like you've simply decided he's not up to it based on no factual evidence whatsoever. A very odd and unfair stance to take.

And also 2 PL title wins and one point off a third. All in three years.

He's been at the club more than 10 years, knows us inside out and SAF appears to be very happy with him.

I find it unreal that you can have people complain about him. I can't wait until the international break is over.

bucketybuck · 04-10-2011 10:33PM

Blatter wrote: »

I find it unreal that you can have people complain about him. I can't wait until the international break is over.

Again, it may be quite unfair to denigrate him, but this opinion of Mike Phelan is quite understandable.

We had almost two decades of Kidd, McClaren, and Quieroz, acclaimed coaches within the game who had stellar reputations. For fans who hope for the best of the best, they could be confident that the men coaching their teams were as good as was available in the game. Kidd was there for that first title in 26 years, and McClaren and Querioz were the results of extensive headhunting for the best coaches around.

Phelen on the other hand is who got the job when Ferguson could not find any suitable candidates. Dont forget here, Phelen was not first choice, he was only acting-assistant when Ferguson was publicly seeking a new assistant after Carlos left. Ferguson could not find anybody he liked, and so Phelen got the job.

Rightly or wrongly, fairly or unfairly, it does appear that Phelen only got the job by default, and the fact that in the years since he has not built the type of industry reputation that the others did only serves to enhance the idea that he is not the best around.

It may be inaccurate, but this perception does have some grounding.

G.K. · 04-10-2011 10:36PM

How do you know Phelan isn't acclaimed within the game?

flahavaj · 04-10-2011 10:39PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Again, it may be quite unfair to denigrate him, but this opinion of Mike Phelan is quite understandable.

We had almost two decades of Kidd, McClaren, and Quieroz, acclaimed coaches within the game who had stellar reputations. For fans who hope for the best of the best, they could be confident that the men coaching their teams were as good as was available in the game. Kidd was there for that first title in 26 years, and McClaren and Querioz were the results of extensive headhunting for the best coaches around.

Phelen on the other hand is who got the job when Ferguson could not find any suitable candidates. Dont forget here, Phelen was not first choice, he was only acting-assistant when Ferguson was publicly seeking a new assistant after Carlos left. Ferguson could not find anybody he liked, and so Phelen got the job.

Rightly or wrongly, fairly or unfairly, it does appear that Phelen only got the job by default, and the fact that in the years since he has not built the type of industry reputation that the others did only serves to enhance the idea that he is not the best around.

It may be inaccurate, but this perception does have some grounding.

Yet he has managed to keep it......

onemorechance · 04-10-2011 10:47PM

OMG! The negativity has gone to a whole new level; planning a funeral! :eek:

homerjay2005 · 04-10-2011 10:55PM

Blatter wrote: »

The thing is, there is no real point to make. It's just absolute nonsense from Homer to put forward a motion that Phelan should be replaced.

And it may not be witty, but I wouldn't say it's too far off from what's going inside his head;)

i dont remember saying he should be replaced??? maybe im drunk or something, but i dont remember saying that. jaysus, the man doesnt inspire me one bit, im not the only person to say this and 2 or 3 of you are taking offence as if ive just killed a sick puppy.

i dont think he is fitting of the job, thats it, its my opinion and surely i am entitled to it. and i dont think im the only person to share this, who was it that said "phelans only use to united is to speak to the bbc and keep fergie stocked up in chewing gum".

indeed, i actually have noticed that René Meulensteen's influence has grown in the past 6-8 months and it is actually him that is second in command now after fergie.

i just dont rate him and i dont think i ever will. and i never said he was fat either and a host of them other things you are spouting off.

flahavaj · 04-10-2011 11:06PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i dont remember saying he should be replaced??? maybe im drunk or something, but i dont remember saying that. jaysus, the man doesnt inspire me one bit, im not the only person to say this and 2 or 3 of you are taking offence as if ive just killed a sick puppy.

i dont think he is fitting of the job, thats it, its my opinion and surely i am entitled to it. and i dont think im the only person to share this, who was it that said "phelans only use to united is to speak to the bbc and keep fergie stocked up in chewing gum".

indeed, i actually have noticed that René Meulensteen's influence has grown in the past 6-8 months and it is actually him that is second in command now after fergie.

i just dont rate him and i dont think i ever will. and i never said he was fat either and a host of them other things you are spouting off.

You've given absolutely no credible argument to back up your opinion though, aside from some wooly stuff about tactics that you've failed to expand upon.

The main argument to oppose your view on this is that you couldn't possibly know how good he is at his job - your lack of a coherent argument only serves to support this.

bucketybuck · 04-10-2011 11:14PM

G.K. wrote: »

How do you know Phelan isn't acclaimed within the game?

Thats just a lazy way of avoiding the point being made, trying to pretend that the other big clubs perhaps rate him highly and perhaps would just love to entice him away from United, but I doubt you really believe that Mike Phelan has a stellar reputation. He is respected I have no doubt, but he is not an acclaimed coach. How do I know that? Well, its the lack of acclaim that gives it away.

I believe my earlier point is still relevant here. Kidd, McClaren and Queiroz were acclaimed coaches, highly in demand when at Utd and offered very good jobs to entice them away. Phelan? Not so much.

And on preview I want to clarify my position to head off some expected responses. Mike Phelan could be a fantastic coach, he may very well be. But there is definitely a perception that he is not one of the best of the best, and unfortunately there are some perfectly valid reasons for that perception.

G.K. · 04-10-2011 11:16PM

I know nothing about Phelan and don't really care, I'm just interested as to why you say he's not acclaimed within the game - all youve done so far is rehash that.

flahavaj · 04-10-2011 11:18PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Thats just a lazy way of avoiding the point being made, trying to pretend that the other big clubs perhaps rate him highly and perhaps would just love to entice him away from United, but I doubt you really believe that Mike Phelan has a stellar reputation. He is respected I have no doubt, but he is not an acclaimed coach. How do I know that? Well, its the lack of acclaim that gives it away.

I believe my earlier point is still relevant here. Kidd, McClaren and Queiroz were acclaimed coaches, highly in demand when at Utd and offered very good jobs to entice them away. Phelan? Not so much.

And on preview I want to clarify my position to head off some expected responses. Mike Phelan could be a fantastic coach, he may very well be. But there is definitely a perception that he is not one of the best of the best, and unfortunately there are some perfectly valid reasons for that perception.

Thats the basis of your argument? That there's a "common perception" he's not very good?

Thankfully "common perceptions" matter jack sh*t in the greater scheme of things and matter little to the guy who put him in the job and has kept him in it for three highly successful years.

Blatter · 04-10-2011 11:20PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i dont remember saying he should be replaced??? maybe im drunk or something, but i dont remember saying that. jaysus, the man doesnt inspire me one bit, im not the only person to say this and 2 or 3 of you are taking offence as if ive just killed a sick puppy.

i dont think he is fitting of the job, thats it, its my opinion and surely i am entitled to it. and i dont think im the only person to share this, who was it that said "phelans only use to united is to speak to the bbc and keep fergie stocked up in chewing gum".

indeed, i actually have noticed that René Meulensteen's influence has grown in the past 6-8 months and it is actually him that is second in command now after fergie.

i just dont rate him and i dont think i ever will. and i never said he was fat either and a host of them other things you are spouting off.

Ah I'm not really taking offense, you're entitled to your opinion but I just can't understand how you can say what your saying and think your views on him could be distorted for one reason or another.

You probably never said directly you wanted him replaced but you can hardly blame me for assuming so seeing as you called him a fraud and think he's not up to much:pac:

As flah said, you're not backing up your opinions with any coherent evidence or facts so we are just bemused as to how you are forming them.

And how do you know René Meulensteen's influence has grown over the past 6-8 months? Could you elaborate on that? Is it because he was talking about Sneijder in the Summer?:p

The_Kew_Tour · 04-10-2011 11:25PM

Blatter wrote: »

And how do you know René Meulensteen's influence has grown over the past 6-8 months? Could you elaborate on that? Is it because he was talking about Sneijder in the Summer?:p

That word should be replaced with ******** from now on

bucketybuck · 04-10-2011 11:36PM

G.K. wrote: »

I know nothing about Phelan and don't really care, I'm just interested as to why you say he's not acclaimed within the game - all youve done so far is rehash that.

Sorry but I cannot prove a negative. As you know it is very difficult to prove a lack of acclaim. (Hey, here are a thousand articles that don't mention him at all...)

Perhaps instead can you show me where he is acclaimed? Or instead, just your opinion, do you believe he is as acclaimed as the previous three Utd coaches mentioned?

flahavaj wrote: »

Thats the basis of your argument? That there's a "common perception" he's not very good?

You are not even reading my posts are you.

flahavaj · 04-10-2011 11:37PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

You are not even reading my posts are you.

Thats a handy way out of providing a good argument alright, nice wan.

G.K. · 04-10-2011 11:38PM

I don't know a first thing about how any of them are acclaimed at a coaching level.

bucketybuck · 04-10-2011 11:52PM

flahavaj wrote: »

Thats a handy way out of providing a good argument alright, nice wan.

With all due respect, I stated my argument, and then took the step of repeating it to clarify my position and to head off rubbish like this.

Your response was this, "Thats the basis of your argument? That there's a "common perception" he's not very good?", words that show you arent really listening to me. (And really, you think there is not a perception he's not very good? I wonder then how this whole discussion came about? And by the way, Common is your usage not mine)

I know you post here ubiquitously and probably have a million of those lovely little "Thanks" things, but sorry to say I still don't really feel the need to play your games. I stated my points as respectfully and as clearly as I could, responses such as the one quoted above are just playground rubbish.

flahavaj · 04-10-2011 11:54PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

With all due respect, I stated my argument, and then took the step of repeating it to clarify my position and to head off rubbish like this.

Your response was this, "Thats the basis of your argument? That there's a "common perception" he's not very good?", words that show you arent really listening to me. (And really, you think there is not a perception he's not very good? I wonder then how this whole discussion came about? And by the way, Common is your usage not mine)

I know you post here ubiquitously and probably have a million of those lovely little "Thanks" things, but sorry to say I still don't really feel the need to play your games. I stated my points as respectfully and as clearly as I could, responses such as the one quoted above are just playground rubbish.

A perception amongst whom? Your line of reasoning is laughably tenuous.

For someone so averse to playground rubbish you are very quik to resort to personal digs btw, wp.

bucketybuck · 04-10-2011 11:59PM

G.K. wrote: »

How do you know Phelan isn't acclaimed within the game?

G.K. wrote: »

I know nothing about Phelan and don't really care, I'm just interested as to why you say he's not acclaimed within the game - all youve done so far is rehash that.

bucketybuck wrote: »

Sorry but I cannot prove a negative. As you know it is very difficult to prove a lack of acclaim. (Hey, here are a thousand articles that don't mention him at all...)

Perhaps instead can you show me where he is acclaimed? Or instead, just your opinion, do you believe he is as acclaimed as the previous three Utd coaches mentioned?

G.K. wrote: »

I don't know a first thing about how any of them are acclaimed at a coaching level.

I will try to clarify.

There is indeed a perception that Mike Phelan is not an acclaimed coach, that we are even having this discussion is evidence of that.

I would consider our previous coaches to be acclaimed. We headhunted them, and they were headhunted from us. Evidence of acclaim.

Phelan was promoted from within as a stop-gap before being offered the job full time. I do not know of any high profile attempts to headhunt him away from us.

Therefore, he does not match the level of acclaim of our previous coaches.

Does he have acclaim from other areas? I have not heard of any, though this does not mean it doesnt exist.

So accepting this, is Mike Phelan an acclaimed assistant manager?

Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

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