So you meet Bertie Ahern in the Local

Biggins wrote: »

Loada - not all - and I suspect not the majority!



No - where were you when even Mr Ahern was talking about suicide and those saying "No" ?



Really?
Can you back that crap up with figures/proof?

O' yes, the same "half the country" ? :rolleyes:


Did the people make them stick them there too now?


O' yes - here we go... Everyone is to blame again ...or wait... is it half the country?


Your either trying to be funny, wearing rose tinted glasses or very naive!

Oh my my Biggins, I forgot I was posting in AH where anypost must either be a sarcastic mocking remark or backed up with exact facts and figures and proof beyond a reasonable doubt otherwise or an aggressive attempt at belitteling the poster will follow.

Half the country was an unfortunate remark by me which I retract. As for the rest of my post it stands.

I only have anecdotal evidence regarding people buying investment properties, my uncle bought an apartment in bulgaria, neighbours bought rental properties in galway. Did you not hear about the property bubble?

As for the developers I never claimed it was "the people" who made them put them there, all i was doing was pointing out examples of people other than politicians who were greedy during the boom years and tried to get as much money as they could. I also pointed out other examples. I didnt judge any of them, i just pointed out that people were trying to make a quick buck.

And no master Biggins I am not naive, maybe not as eloquent a poster as your fine self but what I mean is that I believe he actually went out to do well for the country, he just thought he could do well for himself in the process.

Biggins wrote: »

No, you didn't.
You trotted out the usual too simplistic view that has been regurgitated wrongly by a few that haven't bothered to study in detail as to what actually went wrong!

I suggest you read "The Bankers" by Shane Ross as well as "Wasters"
When you finish them, read "Bertie Ahern and the Drumcondra Mafia" which explains in GREAT detail and backed up by evidence, how Mr Ahearn from his early outset, went out with his Drumcondra mates to use and abuse the political system and economic system to their own ends of gain - gain put first ahead of the public's needs and wishes!

Then come back being more factually aware and not just trot out inaccurate, too simplistic rubbish!

Whatever dude, you win. Maybe Im wrong about bertie aherne and he is a lot more sinister than I thought but it could not have been in his interest for the economy to go down the drain. I am also fully aware that bertie and co talked up the economy and shouted down the likes of McWilliams, Alan Ahern etc. My only point which you keep ignoring is that there was a lot of greed in Irish society, of which I am a part, and to point the blame at only a few is too easy.

Biggins wrote: »

I'm not ignoring it.
There is a lot of greed in Irish society - but the VAST majority of it was at white collar level. Upper management and higher in most cases.
To point the blame blankly at everyone too - is too easy, and quite frankly wrong.
Its far too (wrongly) simplistic and shows that more understanding is needed by many as to see how a clear minority did the damage they did - party by abusing the trust of the vast majority of the people.

Ya true, but while I did speak of ordinary people buying investment properties most of my examples were at white collar level. I worked as an intern in an accountancy firm for most of 2007 and there was a culture of waiting on that extra hour when you were out auditing a firm to make sure you got the extra 40 euro a day expenses for working past 7, on top of the tenner lunch expenses.

If we went auditing out of town it would always be a 120 euro a night hotel. I was a student doing my internship there so I didnt question any of this but they were charging my time at about 40 euro an hour....I got about 400 euro a week. We did work very hard though.

I could go on with examples and most of my classmates at the time had similar stories. The clients seemed happy to pay these expenses and our managers were getting huge bonuses etc.


And of course a tiny majority did the damage, that is well documented. Im not placing the blame on all of society, the government is there to advise the people and of course they did advise that house prices would have a soft landing etc. which the general public had no reason to disbelieve.

All I was saying is that money was flowing and and a lot of people were making hay while the sun was shining. I havnt read those books you provided links to but I was always under the impression that Bertie meant well by the country but was lining his pockets because he thought whats the harm everyones making money. Not excusable at all but I never saw him as the villan of the story.

Biggins wrote: »

I disagree with you on a number of points - but won't go on about them.
I've no genuine wish to be a pain to you.

I would humbly suggest that you read the suggested material or another one of the following:

* Who Really Runs Ireland?: The story of the elite who led Ireland from bust to boom

* Ship of Fools: How Stupidity and Corruption Sank the Celtic Tiger

He was and is a very central villain of the story.
Not one but two major independent European banking reports lays the blame right at his own doorstep - besides many other highly respected individuals at home and internationally.

Even Mike Murphy tonight on the Late Late said Ahern refuses to see what others see still, what he has done (and recognised by many).

Cool bud will do, especially interested in reading the shane ross book. Cheers