Status of Engineers in Irish society

Royal Seahawk wrote: »

My initial point is the person who installs it and maintains it correctly, not from behind a desk but from a hands on role, deserves the same credit as the person who designed it(not that one engineer designed water filters on his own).

Nobody is saying that non-engineers don't deserve credit. All that's being said is that they're not engineers.

Royal Seahawk wrote: »

Engineers also designed heating and plumbing systems but don't know a lot about them in a practical sense. If your heating stops working this winter who are you going to call first, your local engineer or your local plumber?

But that's the point: A plumber is not an engineer and vice versa.

Royal Seahawk wrote: »

No, I never said they did. My initial point is the person who installs it and maintains it correctly, not from behind a desk but from a hands on role, deserves the same credit as the person who designed it(not that one engineer designed water filters on his own).

Royal Seahawk, we are not trying to have an engineer vs. tradesman battle here. Both professions are equally valuable and actually contribute something useful to society. The best designed water treatment system will not work if there is nobody to install and maintain it. If my heating system breaks down you better believe I'm calling a plumber, well perhaps I'll try fix it myself first then maybe I'm calling the fire brigade but I digress.

My point is that most people understand what a plumber does. Most people do not know what an engineer does, and I think even you showed this in your response (no offence intended, correct me if I am way out of line here). The fact is even engineers struggle to explain their work to non-engineers. I haven't looked at water treatment in years, so I'll try to explain what I did in the context of my most recent role in road drainage.

I designed drainpipes, gullies, man-holes, culverts all that sort of thing. Do I know how to install them, a little I have stood and watched things being craned into place but I couldn't do it myself. So am I just this guy sitting behind a desk being paid for nothing?

In the case of a culvert it needs to be big enough to carry the stream from one side of the road to the other. Everyone knows this trickle can become a raging torrent in the winter so it needs to be big enough for when that happens. This is where I come in. I look at the rainfall records for the last 100 years. I look at a topographical map of the area and I figure out where the water in the stream is coming from. Using mathematical modelling I work out how big the stream will be if we have a week of rain, how big will the stream be if we have 12mm of rain in one hour? If the stream floods where will the water back up, will it flood local homes, will it overtop the road? What is the worst case scenario and how much will it cost to build to cater for it? Is that cost so high that it's not worth catering for every possible outcome and what is the best compromise? What type of traffic will be driving over this pipe and will it crush it? Not just the finished culvert that is bedded in with the proper cover, but when it is just after being installed can the JCB then drive back over it immediately?

This is just part of what I do, I haven't even mentioned catering for wildlife, lowering the risk to children, designing it so that litter wont get caught and generally trying to keep the maintenance over its lifetime down to as much of a minimum as possible. I then tell a technician to draw a culvert using a 1500mm pipe, and that drawing is sent to the labourers who install it. Do people really think my only job was to say "yeah a 1500mm pipe is grand" and that is what I get paid the big bucks for? If I did my job correctly, nothing will happen over the 50 year life of that culvert, and people will think they wasted money hiring me, sure it was grand it never flooded. If it does flood, then you hear about the engineer who screwed up, but do we get the credit when nothing happens? A labourer can do an absolutely perfect job of installing the culvert, but if he put a 1200mm in there it would fail. How can you say I'm not valuable?

If all the engineers upped and left Ireland tomorrow nobody would care. Then suddenly things that had been working effortlessly for years would start coming apart. And people would think, what are the odds just when all the engineers leave stuff stops working, still not making the connection.

I no longer work as an engineer. I enjoyed my job, I'd return in an instant if the work was there. I was good at my job, my designs are still working perfectly, yet that means that there is nothing else for me to do. Maybe if I did a bad job I'd get hired back for remedial works. Something wrong there.

Royal Seahawk wrote: »

In response to your last line I am a fully qualified plumber from an industrial backround with ten years experience dealing with engineers and I'm currently midway through studying for an engineering degree as a mature student. (Recession got to me too)

In that case then my apologies, I was out of line. Now lets get together and slag off the real wasters here, the financial industry

In discussing this topic with a colleague today he had an interesting take on our "problem"

Hi point was that the cause of the misuse / over-use of the title engineer is that the title is an often used, easily understood verb and a noun. An Engineer, engineers a solution, an Engineer spends his day Engineering, Engineering will resole the Engineering issue. Put simply, it is an easily understood word that accurately describes who and what is required in many situations where a problem exists. The use of any other word complicates the situation and therefore people naturally avoid "hard" words.

For the same reason that a Farmer, Farms and a Manager, Manages an Engineer, Engineers while those words fail to express the breadth of skill or expertise of the many specialties within those professions, the words are simple, well understood in their general sense and misunderstood in their detail.

So gentlemen, we are not alone, we walk shoulder to shoulder with many other professions with simple titles.

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

So gentlemen...

and ladies!

I'm a female engineer, we do exist!

I served my time as a mechanic, now working in a maintenance office, but I also have a level 7 ordinary degree in mechanical engineering.
Can I call myself a mechanical engineer?!
Or do I need a level 8 honours degree, or even chartership to qualify myself for the title?!

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

So gentlemen, we are not alone, we walk shoulder to shoulder with many other professions with simple titles.

What a sexist comment.......oh cr%p that was me:eek:

So gentlemenfellow engineering professionals, we are not alone, we walk shoulder to shoulder with many other professions with simple titles.[/QUOTE]

McFearless wrote: »

I was warned about engineers attitudes towards technicians (read electricians) while in fas by a lecturer...However I cant help but feel how differently ill look at engineers without a trade once I finish my degree. I guess everyone likes to think they have a better job or more important job then their peers.

I guess the thing is if you're a Plumber, you should be proud to say you're a Plumber. If you're a Technician you should be proud to say you're a Technician. If you're an Engineer, you should be proud to be an Engineer.

As an Engineer I've never claimed to be anything other than that and don't see the need to.

As for the engineersireland membership, don't bet on that unless you are civil background (nothing against civil folks). Level 9 qualification still was TechIEI.

Not strictly true - I'm a Mech Eng (L8) graduate and started at MIEI and now have CEng.