Ireland being RAPED... Norway lead by example!!

AlmightyCushion · 28-09-2011 12:03AM

Comparing us to one of the biggest oil and gas exporters in the world is completely ridiculous. The oil/gas reserves found to date in Ireland are nowhere near the amount found in Norway. Also, the guy who made the video is incorrect. We haven't given our oil away. We let people explore for oil in certain areas for free. We do charge tax on it (25-40% unlike the 0% he states). If we charged the same or similar taxes as Norway does, why the hell would any one bother looking for oil here when they can do the same in Norway where they have a better chance of finding oil a bigger amount of oil.

dj jarvis · 28-09-2011 12:10AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

More total bull**** about Ireland's alleged oil reserves. The type of thing that is propagated by those who either don't mind telling lies to try to persuade people, or those two stupid and lazy to look into the economics of the oil industry. :rolleyes:

apt avatar

oil company's would not touch Irish oil and gas unless they could make a BIG profit for its investors - no matter how hard it is to get at

price of oil is only going one way and that is up - thus making it even more valuable and profit making for big oil - negating the cost of recovery

our natural resources are ours , does not matter how small or large they are. we should hang any politician that does not back a law taxing 80% of AFTER extraction cost profit - oil company's will still make a profit - that is the economics of the oil industry

wild_cat · 28-09-2011 12:11AM

No one wants to pay nearly 4 euro for a loaf of bread or 14 euro for a big mac meal.

You thought 2006 Irish prices were high!!

John Doe1 · 28-09-2011 12:16AM

youtube! wrote: »

I think the big difference between ourselves and the Norwegians (or just about any other nation on the planet come to think of it) is that we will sit and moan and complain and rant and rave till were blue in the face,but will we actually get up off our collective arse and DO something about it?

Nah didnt think so.

Unless the english are involved, make up a story that the english are stealing the oil, problem solved

Guy:Incognito · 28-09-2011 12:16AM

dj jarvis wrote: »

price of oil is only going one way and that is up - thus making it even more valuable and profit making for big oil - negating the cost of recovery

The cost of recovering the oil you find is one thing. Another thing altogether is the cost of all the searches where you dont find anything to get to the one where you do.

ArmaniJeanss · 28-09-2011 12:23AM

dj jarvis wrote: »

apt avatar

oil company's would not touch Irish oil and gas unless they could make a BIG profit for its investors - no matter how hard it is to get at

price of oil is only going one way and that is up - thus making it even more valuable and profit making for big oil - negating the cost of recovery

our natural resources are ours , does not matter how small or large they are. we should hang any politician that does not back a law taxing 80% of AFTER extraction cost profit - oil company's will still make a profit - that is the economics of the oil industry

If the oil companies are getting such a mega deal from us, then why aren't they abandoning those high-tax Norwegian fields and doing major exploration off the coast of Ireland. Why are still bothering with the East coast of Scotland?
Why aren't they just moving every bit of equipment to Ireland - why doesn't the coast from Dingle to Donegal look like Kuwait?

Well the simple explanation is the deal we've given them is favourable, but not hugely so - neither are any reserves off the coast of Ireland proven to be there, or to be there in sufficient qualntity or ease of bringing ashore.

In the last round of 'free mega giveaway' licenses, 15 licenses were picked up.
There were 996 offshore fields available for license. So we 'gave away' 15. 15 of 996 hardly points to the oil companies tripping over themselves to take advantage of Irish stupidity.
If the oil companies hit big time (say 3 of the 15 fields strike oil/gas), they win.
But we will also win as we will still have 981 fields left, and thats when we can become like Norway.

dj jarvis · 28-09-2011 12:38AM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

If the oil companies are getting such a mega deal from us, then why aren't they abandoning those high-tax Norwegian fields and doing major exploration off the coast of Ireland. Why are still bothering with the East coast of Scotland?
Why aren't they just moving every bit of equipment to Ireland - why doesn't the coast from Dingle to Donegal look like Kuwait?

Well the simple explanation is the deal we've given them is favourable, but not hugely so - neither are any reserves off the coast of Ireland proven to be there, or to be there in sufficient qualntity or ease of bringing ashore.

In the last round of 'free mega giveaway' licenses, 15 licenses were picked up.
There were 996 offshore fields available for license. So we 'gave away' 15. 15 of 996 hardly points to the oil companies tripping over themselves to take advantage of Irish stupidity.
If the oil companies hit big time (say 3 of the 15 fields strike oil/gas), they win.
But we will also win as we will still have 981 fields left, and thats when we can become like Norway.

they would not be bothering unless money was to be made - simple.
no one is saying Ireland has the reserves of Norway or will be the next Kuwait - stop being so disingenuous

any reserves found now or in the future should have a new deal - one that benefits the Irish people in a way that reflects the value of the resource

peak oil has passed according to most experts - oil prices will rise and rise - the meager amounts of oil and gas we have will eventually become worth a lot of money. no matter the extraction costs , when this happens we should profit, not BP or its like

no matter how " harsh " the deal is for the oil company's if there is profit to be made they will come , maybe not now or in 20 years but it will be recovered - only question is - who will benefit ?

AlmightyCushion · 28-09-2011 12:46AM

dj jarvis wrote: »

when this happens we should profit, not BP or its like

No, both us and the oil company should profit from it. Why would an oil company explore if they didn't expect to make any money.

Chuck Stone · 28-09-2011 12:54AM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

No it shouldn't. If I happened to discover some oil on my land it shouldn't be other people right to just take it for themselves.

How deep do you think your poperty rights should extend? To the core of the Earth? Should you be able to prevent people from crossing your airspace?

If you nationalise oil and gas you'll be paying through the nose anyway.

I don't mean having it extracted by some state company but taking healthy royalties like Norway does.

marco_polo · 28-09-2011 12:55AM

dj jarvis wrote: »

they would not be bothering unless money was to be made - simple.
no one is saying Ireland has the reserves of Norway or will be the next Kuwait - stop being so disingenuous

any reserves found now or in the future should have a new deal - one that benefits the Irish people in a way that reflects the value of the resource

peak oil has passed according to most experts - oil prices will rise and rise - the meager amounts of oil and gas we have will eventually become worth a lot of money. no matter the extraction costs , when this happens we should profit, not BP or its like

no matter how " harsh " the deal is for the oil company's if there is profit to be made they will come , maybe not now or in 20 years but it will be recovered - only question is - who will benefit ?

And should exploration become more profitable in Irish waters, putting us in a better bargaining position, we always retain the option to revise the terms before any future licensing rounds into more favourable ones for the country (we can and have revised such terms both upwards and downwards in the past), so I fail to see the problem.

For the moment, because demand for Irish exploration rights is extremely low, 25-40% * something > 80% * nothing

The_Minister · 28-09-2011 01:03AM

It's funny that it took until the third page for someone to point out that the video was lying in a big way by saying that we were getting nothing for our oil.

DaveDaRave · 28-09-2011 01:15AM

unitedrover wrote: »

Hate the title word raped being applied to other situations....always seems offensive and disrespectful in my view.

but im sure murdered would be fine, because rape is worse than murder, right ?

:rolleyes:

Duggy747 · 28-09-2011 01:17AM

The_Minister wrote: »

It's funny that it took until the third page for someone to point out that the video was lying in a big way by saying that we were getting nothing for our oil.

Not really funny, I guess, considering I've had my newsfeed on Facebook swamped with ill-informed, over-zealous and part time anti-Shell protestors coming out of the woodworks to spout nonsense since this video was released.

The "Ireland are getting 0% for oil while Norway are living like a king amongst kings!" was the usual order of "topical and intellectual" discussion for them to **** over.

It's one thing when a filmmaker needs to raise a point on an issue, it's another when they have to exaggarate (or lie) to get people on their side.

AlmightyCushion · 28-09-2011 01:20AM

The_Minister wrote: »

It's funny that it took until the third page for someone to point out that the video was lying in a big way by saying that we were getting nothing for our oil.

Most people probably didn't watch the video or just watched the "what makes Norway so rich? Oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil" part. Most people believe we have massive oil reserves and have just let shell waltz in and take it. I thought so too when I read the stories and opinion pieces in newspapers that said it at the time. That changed once I looked into it for myself. If I hadn't looked into it myself, I'd probably be losing the plot here as well without watching any of that video.

upandcumming · 28-09-2011 01:28AM

naldface wrote: »

You'll have to work on your sentence structure. I don't think you're ready to create random sentences yet.

naldface wrote: »

Explain it in your own words, please. That is, if you don't mind doing so.

Just fuck off!

andrew · 28-09-2011 01:41AM

I had a read of a shell to sea leaflet today. Its done in the style of a faux news article reporting on the nationalisation of our gas fields (which are worth either 420 or 540 billion, I saw two figures). Anyway it has a faux quote from the minister for finance..."minister Brian Lenihan" :O

I think that the leaflet did have a point in that I don't see why the government lowered the tax rate on the oil. Did the lower rate actually induce more investment? Also, according to the leaflet, exploration costs can be claimed against tax, which again seems silly if its true. The problem is that even if there's a germ of truth in what the shell to sea crowd are saying, they're mostly nutters who don't know what theyre talking about.

marco_polo · 28-09-2011 02:05AM

andrew wrote: »

I had a read of a shell to sea leaflet today. Its done in the style of a faux news article reporting on the nationalisation of our gas fields (which are worth either 420 or 540 billion, I saw two figures). Anyway it has a faux quote from the minister for finance..."minister Brian Lenihan" :O

I think that the leaflet did have a point in that I don't see why the government lowered the tax rate on the oil. Did the lower rate actually induce more investment? Also, according to the leaflet, exploration costs can be claimed against tax, which again seems silly if its true. The problem is that even if there's a germ of truth in what the shell to sea crowd are saying, they're mostly nutters who don't know what theyre talking about.

What is really silly is the Norwegian model they are all fapping over reimburses something like 80% of exploration costs.

The tax take on profits was increased from 25% to between 25-40% a few years ago by the Greens I believe (Dependent on profitability) a good few years ago, nothing has changed in this regard recently, what did change was some other terms of the current licensing round as explained here .

All of which had the desired effect of increasing the number of applications from 4 the last time, to 15 this time.

AlmightyCushion · 28-09-2011 02:13AM

I've heard this 0.5 trillion euros of oil/gas reserves figure a few times. Does any one actually know where it came from?

Alan b. · 28-09-2011 02:16AM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

No it shouldn't. If I happened to discover some oil on my land it shouldn't be other people right to just take it for themselves. If you nationalise oil and gas you'll be paying through the nose anyway.

it's in the constitution that the resources of the state belong to the people of the state, so if you somehow managed to find an oil deposit deep underground under the footprintof your property, thats still not yours.

just as the port tunnel was able to go under ground without having to buy the land under property.

you dont own the space under your property, only a portion of it.

also, correct me if i'm wrong, but isnt the oil being extracted of the kind not really suitable for refining fuels? and more, for creating plastics and such???

Spacedog · 28-09-2011 02:28AM

What about option 3?

Leave the oil in the ground/under the sea until technology advancement and scarcity, make it more easy to find, safer to extract, and more valuable to sell for the future generations.

What's the hurry to get it out of the ground at knockdown prices?

I'm looking for an answer here. Where is the business sense in the fire sale, It's exactly the same as NAMA, portfolio of some of the worlds most iconic properties, forced to sell off in the middle of an unprecedented global recession within a restricted time frame.

It never ceases to amaze me how random boardsies will argue so passionately for the rights of the likes of Shell, there's playing the devils advocate, trolling, or even having a vested interest in the oil business doing well. But to sell out your own people to protect stupid old FF policies and deals, low corporation tax, is truly repulsive to decent hard working normal people.

Things are gonna get a lot worse for us all because of things like this, and if it takes a civil war to separate us from those here who suffer from social autism.

Alan b. · 28-09-2011 02:38AM

Spacedog wrote: »

What about option 3?

Leave the oil in the ground/under the sea until technology advancement and scarcity, make it more easy to find, safer to extract, and more valuable to sell for the future generations.

What's the hurry to get it out of the ground at knockdown prices?

I'm looking for an answer here. Where is the business sense in the fire sale, It's exactly the same as NAMA, portfolio of some of the worlds most iconic properties, forced to sell off in the middle of an unprecedented global recession within a restricted time frame.

It never ceases to amaze me how random boardsies will argue so passionately for the rights of the likes of Shell, there's playing the devils advocate, trolling, or even having a vested interest in the oil business doing well. But to sell out your own people to protect stupid old FF policies and deals, low corporation tax, is truly repulsive to decent hard working normal people.

Things are gonna get a lot worse for us all because of things like this, and if it takes a civil war to separate us from those here who suffer from social autism.

this is a very real possibility in the very near future as the eurozone is about to collapse.

marco_polo · 28-09-2011 02:56AM

Spacedog wrote: »

What about option 3?

Leave the oil in the ground/under the sea until technology advancement and scarcity, make it more easy to find, safer to extract, and more valuable to sell for the future generations.

What's the hurry to get it out of the ground at knockdown prices?

I'm looking for an answer here. Where is the business sense in the fire sale, It's exactly the same as NAMA, portfolio of some of the worlds most iconic properties, forced to sell off in the middle of an unprecedented global recession within a restricted time frame.

It never ceases to amaze me how random boardsies will argue so passionately for the rights of the likes of Shell, there's playing the devils advocate, trolling, or even having a vested interest in the oil business doing well. But to sell out your own people to protect stupid old FF policies and deals, low corporation tax, is truly repulsive to decent hard working normal people.

Things are gonna get a lot worse for us all because of things like this, and if it takes a civil war to separate us from those here who suffer from social autism.

It wasn't a firesale though it was a perfectly normal licensing round as takes place every few years, with slightly different terms to the previous one, designed to increase exploration levels (there were 4 aplications in the previous one). As was said on the previous page this resulted in a moderate increase in applications to explore 15 of the 996 available blocks.

The business sense in stimulating exploration is that firstly it increases the potential for substantial finds, which results in more tax revenues, and secondly any increase in the exploration sucess ratios would provide us with a much stronger position for setting more favourable terms for ourselves into the future.

4leto · 28-09-2011 03:47AM

We have given Europe 210 billion in fish, they have given us aspiration, and 50 billion in grants.

But our economy has changed, it has employed more people, and made us wealthier.

The thing about wealth and employment, it only matters when it employs people, and those people produce a saleable product, or when we are willing to be consumers of that industry, BUT like most Irish, personally I hate fish, Unless they are battered.

AS for our oil where exactly is that,? I am not saying there is none, there is barrels, but unlike Norway its deep oil, not northsea 100 metres deep oil rig which touches the sea floor, and you can send down a human diver to fix a problem. Ours is 1000 to 2000 metres deep, our rigs would have to float and be controlled in the rough north atlantic by computers.

We seen what happened when this drilling op goes wrong , we get a major leak, and NO irish power to fix it. America and Obama could barely fix that BP disaster.

So leave it alone till the tech is perfect to extract it. So give up the dream of an Ireland Saudi, it really is a risky venture and not worth doing. We have ourselves to create a future. We can, with no pipe dreams.

Monty Burnz · 28-09-2011 07:26AM

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

If I hadn't looked into it myself, I'd probably be losing the plot here as well without watching any of that video.

Yeah, but you can't be expecting people to educate themselves on how businesses work ('if they were taxed at 99%, they'd still be making a profit' :rolleyes:) and how the oil industry works - sure that's boring. Better to listen to a few soundbites or watch a propaganda video put together by a clown than to invest some hours in reading boring information.

JupiterKid · 28-09-2011 07:49AM

In Norway they are quite fond of burning churches to the ground. We In Ireland haven't followed suit...yet.

giles lynchwood · 28-09-2011 08:30AM

cml387 wrote: »

Do you know the price of a pint in Norway?

Well actully neither do I,but I bet it;s humungous.

Why does everything in this country relate to alcohol,why not ask about the cost of living in Norway.
Gombeen Irish at it´s best.
There is a theory that the best of the Irish,i.e. those with foresight,courage and motovation left Ireland during the fammine,and the runt´s stayed.

Monty Burnz · 28-09-2011 08:40AM

giles lynchwood wrote: »

Why does everything in this country relate to alcohol,why not ask about the cost of living in Norway.
Gombeen Irish at it´s best.
There is a theory that the best of the Irish,i.e. those with foresight,courage and motovation left Ireland during the fammine,and the runt´s stayed.

There's another theory that those who couldn't hack it here and who made a balls of their life were forced to slink away to other countries.

But I agree, the alcohol business does get very tiresome. So many times I've had to listen to people from other countries talking about my (presumed) great love for the drink, which I guess they heard about from that sad, loud minority of Irish people who think it makes us sound great (as if Ireland were a 13 year old child trying to impress it's peers) and that life revolves around alcohol.

Richard tea · 28-09-2011 09:28AM

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Most people probably didn't watch the video or just watched the "what makes Norway so rich? Oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil, oil" part. Most people believe we have massive oil reserves and have just let shell waltz in and take it. I thought so too when I read the stories and opinion pieces in newspapers that said it at the time. That changed once I looked into it for myself. If I hadn't looked into it myself, I'd probably be losing the plot here as well without watching any of that video.

May I be so bold as to ask how you went about looking into it?

marco_polo · 28-09-2011 09:42AM

4leto wrote: »

We have given Europe 210 billion in fish, they have given us aspiration, and 50 billion in grants.

Hate to break it to you but that 210 billlon fish is a mythical figure.

http://www.marine.ie/NR/rdonlyres/B274034C-8DCA-4CEA-ADD7-F0FC5652DA0B/0/Valueoflandings.pdf

The Irish share in volume from the waters
around Ireland is 15% and within the Irish EEZ this is substantial
higher (28%). In terms of values catches from the
waters around Ireland are worth around €800 million annually
of which around €460 million worth are taken from
the Irish EEZ. The Irish share is higher in terms of values
with 19% from the waters around Ireland and 30% from
the EEZ (given the assumptions made this might be an over
estimate of the true percentages and underestimate of the
values of the international landings)

Monty Burnz · 28-09-2011 09:42AM

Richard tea wrote: »

May I be so bold as to ask how you went about looking into it?

If you want a general idea of how to look into it rather than the specific means that Almighty Cushion used, I would suggest reading up on the business of oil investment. There are reams of information on the oil industry from the investor's perspective and it gives you an idea of how the oil industry works - the risks involved for investors (read: oil companies), the effects of regulation and tax regimes, incentivisation, upstream and downstream business, the process of 'proving' reserves, how reserves can be under or overestimated (you may recall that Shell got into a load of bother in the last decade having to revise downwards their proved reserves), reserve replacement ratios and so forth.

The large figures bandied around for the guesstimates of reserves in Irish waters seem to have been put out in Irish government publications - publications that they hope will win the attention of those with the skills, equipment and the cash required to hunt for this oil on our behalf. It's not surprising that they will try to talk up the amount of oil out there.

I guarantee you if you spend half a day reading up on this stuff you will come to the conclusion that those banging on about us being robbed of our oil birthright are ideologues talking out of their arses.

Ireland being RAPED... Norway lead by example!!

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