Who's getting the service jobs?

conorhal · 23-09-2011 12:56PM

COYW wrote: »

I'll give you a few good reasons, proper reasons :

- The eastern Europeans are far better workers than the Irish.

- During the boom years, the supermarket jobs were above the Irish. If the economy started growing again, the Irish people would be flocking out of the supermarket jobs and the company will have to hire and re-train a whole new roster of staff. They Eastern Europeans are experienced in the area.

- The level of customer service from Irish supermarket staff is appalling. They are more interested in yapping to their co-worker about going to the pub than serving the customer. If you ask an Irish staff member where something is located in the store, you will get an aisle number if you are lucky or a finger point in the general direction. The eastern European worker will bring you to the item location.

- Also, the eastern European will not turn up for work hungover or half-cut, thus spend half the morning in the toilet and the rest of the day stinking of a mix of stale drink and deodorant.

Right, I've just about had it with this stupid, intellectually lazy, self loathing meme.

Firstly, the reason that Eastern European's flooded the service industry over the past 10 years has feck all to do with 'lazy Irish people that were too snooty to do a service industry job', and more to do with the fact that there was an explosion of such jobs as the service industry expanded during the boom and an insufficient number of people to fill them. We did have near full employment at the time, if you care to remember? Thus we had to import labor to fill these jobs. And these jobs tend to be the first port of call for any migrant looking to start afresh in a new country in exactly the same way that the building site or the bar is the first place Irish people going to the US looked for a job.

Secondly, unlike my dad's generation where only a couple of students in a leaving cert class would go on to further education, the Irish have placed a premium on higher education over the past 25yrs with record levels of students going on to third level education after fees were 'abolished' and thus we have had the most qualified graduates of any generation of Irish citizens ever. Naturally these graduates filled out the jobs in expanding new sectors that were crying out for graduates. Most people, quite rightly, are going to look for jobs appropriate to their skills and educational level, of which there were plenty at the time.

Thirdly, my mum has often commented on how there was a time that all wait staff wore a tux, even in the lowly greasy spoon cafe on O' Connell St. that my gran managed. Being a waiter was an honorable profession with professional standards. Since the ‘McDonaldization’ of the service industry however, the emphasis for employers has been on creating jobs that are low paid, part time and semi-skilled with little or no hope of being described as a 'career'.
It may be fine for young, single Eastern European workers to work two minimum wage jobs, live eight to an apartment and never go out, because they are offsetting the low wage and crappy conditions by remitting the money to a lower cost home country where it will have greater purchasing power. If however you are Irish, and aspire to someday having a home, a family and a life, such jobs have little to offer other then indentured servitude. The reason such employers were constantly having to train and rehire is down to the fact that service industry workers often had the option of a better job with better terms and conditions to go to, and rather then trying to retain staff, the McJobs employers just accepted that high turnover was as the cost of running a minimum wage business, until of course they got the opportunity to import an entire under-class of cheap labor willing to work for crap pay and conditions for an extended period of time (or in some cases, couldn't move because their work visa was tied to their employer).

So stuff your daft generalization back up the hole it clearly spewed out of.

23-09-2011 01:05PM

That is a excellent post I think some times when people post here they are looking for a quick answer and don't want to understand that the answer is very complex.

mikemac · 23-09-2011 01:09PM

Superb post conorhal, the best so far on this thread

drdeadlift · 23-09-2011 01:11PM

Notorious wrote: »

This thread reeks of racism and ridiculous generalisations.

lol. Generalization.

draiochtanois · 23-09-2011 01:20PM

This post has been deleted.

SEPT 23 1989 · 23-09-2011 01:23PM

The euro stretches much further in India and Eastern Europe

draiochtanois · 23-09-2011 01:23PM

This post has been deleted.

mike kelly · 23-09-2011 01:32PM

mariaalice wrote: »

The problem I suspect is to do with how our social welfare is constructed and maybe a bit to do with childcare.

Tesco are not giving out full-time contracts, they want someone who is flexible enough to work 20 hours one week and 30 the next and to be very flexible about their working hours, the above is not a full-time job and is very hard to combine with any social welfare entitlements or childcare responsibilities.

I had a contract like this back in the day with dunnes stores. Some weeks you would only get 20 hours and honestly you would over 6 months earn nearly as much on the dole as with this kind of contract. People working in Tesco should have a guarante of a mimimum number of hours per week.

Murdstone · 23-09-2011 02:06PM

huge amount of stereotyping in this thread, I'm always amazed that people will state uniformed opinion as if it is a proven fact.

Regarding comments that Irish people are feckless, lazy and disagreeable:

I am Irish. I work in a large department store in Dublin. Vast majority of the staff there are Irish. Vast majority of the staff work hard and are pleasant to other staff and customers.

Regarding the necessity of experience to work in retail:

Depending on the specific job, yeah it's a bonus if you have it, but I got my current job despite having no retail experience (I have worked in pubs and admin previously).

Regarding comments that foreigners are getting all of the retail jobs because they work harder:

I haven't found this to be particularly the case, the foreigners I work with are ok at the job but they don't work any harder than they have to (like everyone else).

Anyway, to sum up: anyone who says all Irish are like this, all foreigners are like that... is a jackass.

Sooopie · 23-09-2011 02:23PM

cosmicfart wrote: »

yea i agree but when im shopping I like to see a smiling face on the other side of the counter not sum 'TUTTING little i dont want to be here bitch' usually Irish, unfortunately true.

if you want to see a miserable puss i find the polish women put us irish ladies to SHAME

23-09-2011 02:33PM

Every thread on this topic is page after page of generalisation and/thinly veiled racism. To say that during the boom Irish people were thinking themselves above working in a supermarket is rudicolous. I spent close ti three years saving up enough to go to college and during that time I worked in two supermarkets where the majority of my co-workers were Irish and everyone of us was grateful for the job.

Same goes for the claims that Irish likening are lazy. In my last job I worked 7 days a week from 9-7 and between August and February only had 1 and a half days off. Sure I was taken advantage of and it was illegal but as far as I was concerned every days wages was one day closer to being able to go off to college. Now that I'm finished college I'm applying for jobs all over the place, I dont care what it involves as long as I get paid. Most of the people whom I finished college with are the same. Only one or two see the dole as a career, they're the kind who during the boom didn't work and are the first to protest that it's the poorest if the poor who suffer whenever file cuts are mentioned. Doesn't stop them drinking 5 nights a week and betting on the soccer every week.

On the original point if this thread I have to say in the Tesco here in Galway it seems that most till staff are Irish with non-nationals packing shelves.

The Scientician · 23-09-2011 03:01PM

I think it's odd everyone going on about Irish people treating jobs as if they were "beneath them" etc. during the boom. The fact is, any rational person will go for the best job their abilities allow them to. It's not so much a case of turning your nose up at working at Tesco as why would you accept minimum wage there when you could be paid more elsewhere, often for less laborious work, and even sometimes with perks. You'd be stupid not to. There were a plethora of jobs available for educated native English speakers and for anybody who had anything to do with the building trade, most of which paid far more than a job stacking shelves.

7sr2z3fely84g5 · 23-09-2011 04:40PM

The Scientician wrote: »

I think it's odd everyone going on about Irish people treating jobs as if they were "beneath them" etc. during the boom.

i don't think its odd,i think it was true,during the boom there where still people sitting and drawing the dole whilst bertie and co decided to open the EU border for fellow workers much to delight of the hospitality sector,now maybe the gov at the time had no choice in that,but still it didn't change much in how the benefit system worked,in fact the last gov even increased payments.it only seems to be with this gov thanks to the severe state we in the benefit system is slowing saving the money from the clamp down on fraudulent claims.

A lot of these places hire staff on experience,im sure they would rather not spend time training an unemployed accountant/solicitor in stock/till work and knowing they would leave as quick if the business picked up again.

As someone else pointed out,the sad situation some people with kids etc cant afford to take on min wage jobs thanks to the high cost of living and supplements available such as the med card for doctor visits which they would lose if they took up such work.

msg11 · 23-09-2011 07:10PM

I call bull**** on this story. The store I work in hired 15 new staff, all 15 staff are Irish even the new night staff are Irish. Just a sign on the times.

Back when I started a couple of years ago, I started with about 2/3 Irish staff and the next 6-7 people where Non nationals. My mates took the piss out of me for working in Tesco back then, now there begging me to get them work. Working my way up, I now have decent hours, get paid decently by the hour and the work is not that hard once you get stuck into it.

As for the new stores opening up? You can request a transfer to a new store, staff with the company have priority if they want to move too a new store. Maybe alot of these non nationals live out that direction and it's easier for them to commute so they requested a transfer.

Or maybe the person that interviewed all the staff for the new store found some non nationals had more experience for the job.

There's a mate of mine on the dole for 6 years now, back when the boom was around he was blaming the non nationals saying he couldn't get a job. He is still jobless, blaming non nationals still only this time blaming them for the recession saying they are taking money out of the country and sitting on the dole. Even though the non national paided a hell of alot more tax than him and only on it for a little while compared to his 6 years. Some people will never work or change, cause they have it nice and easy, so why would he bother.

wild_cat · 23-09-2011 07:15PM

mikemac wrote: »

That's just terrible store management

Go to the likes of Marks and Spencers where the staff tend to be older and you get fantastic service from friendly people, doesn't matter what their nationality is. Well most of them are Irish.

The service is a lot slower though. That's what I love about lidl no slowness!!!

msg11 · 23-09-2011 07:22PM

wild_cat wrote: »

The service is a lot slower though. That's what I love about lidl no slowness!!!

Lidl is not a bad store, I don't like the shop because when you just want to go in and have a look around at the hardware bargains. You have to go threw the checkouts and they look at you with ten heads cause your not buying anything.

Sonnenblumen · 23-09-2011 07:31PM

Lumbo wrote: »

OK, I'm interviewing two people for a job.

One is Irish with no experience. One is non national with lots of experience.

Who do I choose?

What experience and how do you verify? Customer perception must also be considered.

I'm fed up getting fake CVs mainly from non Nationals.

Solnskaya · 23-09-2011 11:07PM

Feck away and sh1te all the Irish rubbishers. There's a recession on and people are hurting. No. 1 is loyalty to your own, so rule no.1 for every Irish firm should be -Hire Irish. "I'm the boss of this garage", and I've had both- Eastern Europeans and Irish. The Irish are better. More productive, harder working, more honest, better at relating to customers, more flexible, more pride in their work, more of an eye on the aims of the business. There can be no rule, due to euro-b0lloxology and it's "equal opportunities" crap, but I know, if I'm giving out a pay packet, I want to give it to a family I know, that I live near, and that are Irish people that were there as long as me. It kills me to see good Irish workers on the dole-hard working people who worked their ar5es off during the boom, and are now idle. At every turn, I try to hire Irish for whatever is going. You look after your own, and what goes around comes around.

munster_mafia · 23-09-2011 11:32PM

Mate of mine is a manager in Tesco and when they are hiring they are told to pick non-Irish to fill the positions. Simple really, they dont stay in the job as long racking up a higher wage rate.

For Forks Sake · 23-09-2011 11:33PM

msg11 wrote: »

Lidl is not a bad store, I don't like the shop because when you just want to go in and have a look around at the hardware bargains. You have to go threw the checkouts and they look at you with ten heads cause your not buying anything.

Try limboing out through the checkout and see the looks you'll get then

Corruptedmorals · 23-09-2011 11:34PM

I've worked in two branches of Tesco's rival. In the first out of about 60 drapery staff, there are 10 non-nationals. In the second, out of 20 drapery staff, there are 4 non-nationals. The percentage in the supermarkets are higher, because so few are willing to work the nightpack shifts, but it is still a quarter or less. They are not 'overrun' with foreign staff, and none of them are new- on average they've been there 3 years, often 5+.

I would not say they're far better than Irish workers, it would be equal. They can be surly and are quite cliquey, but in general they are extremely efficient. Not that Irish workers aren't all of those things.

pinky 06 · 23-09-2011 11:37PM

They took our jobs!!

OPENROAD · 23-09-2011 11:39PM

mikemac wrote: »

That's just terrible store management

Go to the likes of Marks and Spencers where the staff tend to be older and you get fantastic service from friendly people, doesn't matter what their nationality is. Well most of them are Irish.

Marks and Spencer are excellent..my local M&S does have a lot of young staff working there and they are really friendly...they tend to get a lot of visits from management from England so not surprised. But they always recognize regular customers.. great store to shop in.

Corruptedmorals · 23-09-2011 11:41PM

OPENROAD wrote: »

Marks and Spencer are excellent..my local M&S does have a lot of young staff working there and they are really friendly...they tend to get a lot of visits from management from England so not surprised. But they always recognize regular customers.. great store to shop in.

M&S Number 1 priority is customer service. For the others the priority is getting the stock out and selling it. There's a big difference and there's a reason why staff turnover is so high in the others.

mapaco · 24-09-2011 03:01PM

this is drivin me crackers!
would the irish be given priority in ANY other country for jobs???????? my a**e they would!!
i used to be one of those 'aw the craythers, give them a chance'....but after working with and dealing with eastern europeans in the health service for the last 9 years i've seen the-very harsh-light.
going to buy my lunch....no matter how smiley and polite i am-i have yet to get a pleasant server-i feel like i'm imposing by getting a sandwich.
to order a coffee same thing or they'll yap away in 'eastern european' while a queue forms until THEY are ready to serve.
the ones in the same job as myself-ask them for a hand(only when very very stuck due to the attitude) and they'll sigh loudly and plod along like the weight of the world has landed on them.

they work all the overtime and do ridiculous hours because
a)their families are in 'eastern europe' and they no draw to stay in their rented accomodation
b)they use their partners tax credits therefore paying NO TAX (legal-in this daft country-btw) so can AFFORD to work crazy hours.
if i do overtime its all gone on tax.
any one of them i've worked with is much higher qualified in their home country than the job they have here and do as little as possible-and have a smart answer for everything.

before anyone jumps on my back....ALL of my english, german, nigerian etc....colleagues agree with ALL of the above.

Nodin · 24-09-2011 03:50PM

mapaco wrote: »

..............

before anyone jumps on my back....ALL of my english, german, nigerian etc....colleagues agree with ALL of the above.

Well I'm glad thats settled then.

4leto · 24-09-2011 03:58PM

These statements are usually made by people who didn't apply for the job.

But here is a kind of explanation. During the boom us Irish did not want this type of work. But the foreigners were more then willing to do this work.

Now when a HR manager in these places are looking for staff, the ones with the most experience in the service industry are the foreigners. They are the ones with the best CVs for this work.

drdeadlift · 24-09-2011 04:06PM

4leto wrote: »

These statements are usually made by people who didn't apply for the job.

But here is a kind of explanation. During the boom us Irish did not want this type of work. But the foreigners were more then willing to do this work.

Now when a HR manager in these places are looking for staff, the ones with the most experience in the service industry are the foreigners. They are the ones with the best CVs for this work.

So how are you stacking the shelves making coffee cleaning the floor skills?Get a grip we know whats going on here

4leto · 24-09-2011 04:15PM

drdeadlift wrote: »

So how are you stacking the shelves making coffee cleaning the floor skills?Get a grip we know whats going on here

Dismal to be honest, my attitude to been asked to those jobs would suck, I also would not value that job and I would be sacked in no time.

It maybe low skilled work but if I was in HR I would still want the people with some experience in that sector. And right now its an employers market.

drdeadlift · 24-09-2011 04:24PM

4leto wrote: »

Dismal to be honest, my attitude to been asked to those jobs would suck, I also would not value that job and I would be sacked in no time.

It maybe low skilled work but if I was in HR I would still want the people with some experience in that sector. And right now its an employers market.

If you were the person in hr theres a good chance you would be on the scratcher.I wouldn't value those jobs either,i would loose my mind on the dole tho after three weeks i start to get a little suicidal.

Who's getting the service jobs?

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