Is hydrogen the future of motoring?

seamus · 21-09-2011 12:47PM

Vicxas wrote: »

How difficult is it to transfer from water to Hydrogen, because I wouldnt want your run of the mill garage attendant doing this if its dangerous...

It's quite easy actually. Effectively two wires running into a tank of water with a current flowing into them. It's done by junior cert students on a small scale in the lab.
Production on a station's scale would happen completely automatically - overnight or something similar. At the push of a button anyway. You wouldn't have a pleb standing there swirling a big wooden stick in the mixture

The production process isn't actually dangerous in the slightest, the most dangerous part is compressing and storing the oxegen and hydrogen gasses it creates.

jamieh · 21-09-2011 03:52PM

cormac_byrne wrote: »

What's being described above is simply a scam, if it worked it would be an example of a perpetual motion machine.

http://aardvark.co.nz/hho.shtml

Hi all,

I can assure you that the product 'hydrogenengine' has developed is not a scam.

He is a friend of mine and fit the unit into my 2005 BMW 320Cd MSport a number of months ago.

I have noticed a definite increase in MPG, ~18% and there is without doubt more poke.

I have seen the unit in other cars/jeeps/trucks and talked to the owners, who are all reporting similar results to me.

Don't ask me how it works because it's totally over my head

, but I can assure ye that he's a genuine guy with a serious product!

Matt Simis · 21-09-2011 04:03PM

Ive been looking at HHO Injection for a while now. Ive even bought a car to test it out on. Will update ASAP.

Hydrogenengine, if you are legit, contact me on this!

hydrogenengine · 21-09-2011 04:16PM

alias no.9 wrote: »

So how does this setup take account of varying engine speeds. A 12v electrolysis cell will be producing gas at a pretty constant rate. Volumetric air intake will vary almost proportionally with engine speed. You state yourself that too much gas increases the NOx, so how do you account for engine speed?
I don't doubt that you can get a cleaner burn by adding the gasses, I just dont see how that can be done in a balanced manner over the rev range with the setup you describe.

There are some electronics to control the gas input, the device has two cells in one, the first cell operates continuous from the time the engine is started, the second cell only operates when the engine reaches 2000rpm so town and motorway driving is considered.
For those of you interested in fuel cells check out www.thefuelcellstore.com
You will note the cost of producing pure hydrogen and then the amount of hydrogen that is required to run the cell to obtain electricity, I rest my case.
Metal Hydride is the safest means to store hydrogen and has a slow release rate but would be adequate for small engines. I will not disclose my experience in running an engine on hydrogen alone but I will state that ignition timing must be at close to TDC. This is difficult with some engines as they are difficult to remap. Ford developed a V10 hydrogen engine for F1 which was discounted due to sponsorship from oil companies.

hydrogenengine · 21-09-2011 05:14PM

Matt Simis wrote: »

I still suspect the fuel cell/EV approach will basically suck to drive though but yes, having read the Hydrogen7 Wiki page, the BMW car of 2007 is bizarrely limited.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

The best alternative I have seen is the Chevy Volt, the electric engine is the primary power drive train and the petrol engine is secondary and cuts in when battery is exhausted, this car is a prototype as yet and has not been put into production, currently due to high cost, Driving range on the electric motor is some forty miles which would suit a lot of people.

Before I answer any more questions on making hydrogen there are a few basis safety measures that must be considered for anyone intending to experiment.

Think of hydrogen as electricity going through a wire, its continuous, if you light a match to one end of a pipe the flame will immediately jump back to the source and cause explosion. The gas flame must be protected by a flashback arrestor or the pipe inserted into a water tank with an independent gas pipe at exit, the flame will not jump through water. There is no flame like petrol or diesel, its an instant flash, Develop a safety plan first.

opinion guy · 21-09-2011 05:28PM

hydrogenengine wrote: »

OK, here are some facts, Electrolysis of water is a lot easier than most believe, it just takes some low voltage electricity and some electrodes and of course an additive to make the water more electro conductive and I do not mean baking soda, it corrodes the electrodes.

Two years on my 08 Mercedes C220 is a hydrogen hybrid, mpg was at most 48 on a long journey but with a 50 euro conversion achieves 60mpg within ten miles and within twenty miles will achieve 65-70mpg with more power.
Experts will say the engine will blow but 60,000 miles later its running better than ever because its clean burning.
There is an optimum energy input, any excess will result in waste and heat up such a device. I have one on my oil fired boiler and efficiency has improved by 16%. I simply use less oil and one litre of water per month.
Let me put this in perspective, one litre of petrol currently will cost you one euro and fifty cent, this will also buy you 8kwh electricity and you can easily convert this into 2200 litres of a hydrogen/oxygen gas ( two thousand two hundred litres) is it any wonder the powers that be do not want this technology known. Testing on a Scania 420 has shown in excess of 20% improved fuel economy and I am now working on a highly efficient CHP which will provide heating and electricity for my home. Smart metering feed in tarrif is just ten cent a kw which will result in my fuel cost less than zero.Take the Prius Hybrid which has 27kw battery storage, the batteries are well capable of making hydrogen as the sole fuel for the engine and require recharge just once a week depending on mileage, The solutions are already known but the powers that be will tell you it simply cannot be done. Its about carbon tax and Revenue collection.
A prominent TV personality once told me, if you were from silicone valley everyone would say you are a genius but because you are Irish you are talking rubbish. I can imagine some of the comments I will get here but I will provide evidence when the time is right. Hydrogen injection despite all claims does actually increase emissions because more fuel is being burned that would otherwise go out through the exhaust, emissions are reduced by better mpg. Hybrid conversions are a possible retro-fit solution for all existing petrol and diesel engines and home heating and with rising fuel cost, Will our Government eventually tax rainwater ?

hydrogenengine wrote: »

There is no gas storage required, the gas is produced on demand with low voltage from the battery/charging voltage, and is then injected via the air intake just before the turbo. One litre of water decomposed will produce 1860 litres of gas so top up with a quarter litre of water every week, depending on mileage.
The particulate filter was due to burn off at 56,400km but when tested at 50,000 had just 1% carbon, possibly there since before installation at 20,000 miles. The setup/emissions are checked using Snap On exhaust gas analyzer
which is a must have to regulate the amount of gas input, too much gas is worse than less. When the gas burns o2 reduces but co2 will increase at optimum combustion, too much gas will increase Nox emissions.
The setup is a fairly exact science gained simply from experience and proper test equipment.

Okaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy

Could you please explain exactly what you are talking about here ? You are using a small hydrolysis unit to generate hydrogen and inject it into the air fuel mixture is that it ?

What does that do ?
How does this improve efficiency/increase power ?
Whats going on here chemically ?

cormac_byrne · 21-09-2011 05:38PM

hydrogenengine wrote: »

For those of you interested in fuel cells check out www.thefuelcellstore.com
You will note the cost of producing pure hydrogen and then the amount of hydrogen that is required to run the cell to obtain electricity, I rest my case.
Metal Hydride is the safest means to store hydrogen and has a slow release rate but would be adequate for small engines. I will not disclose my experience in running an engine on hydrogen alone but I will state that ignition timing must be at close to TDC. This is difficult with some engines as they are difficult to remap. Ford developed a V10 hydrogen engine for F1 which was discounted due to sponsorship from oil companies.

That's all very interesting, but has no relevance to the device you have outlined

i.e.

hydrogenengine wrote: »

There is no gas storage required, the gas is produced on demand with low voltage from the battery/charging voltage, and is then injected via the air intake just before the turbo

That device is useless as it will always take more energy (from the alternator) to generate the hydrogen than you will get back from later combusting it.

EI_Flyboy · 21-09-2011 06:46PM

TLDR: I have an awesome way to save you €€€€€€€, the economy and the planet BUT I'm not going to tell you how...

hydrogenengine wrote: »

Ask any of our experts, college professors, SEAI etc, they will all tell you hydrogen can only be regarded as an energy carrier and our hydrogen economy is possibly 50 years away. Check out the internet and you will see numerous people selling water for gas kits for engine conversions. I have been unable to find one manufacturer/supplier who will offer a money back guarantee or in fact tell you how to operate such a device, they are mostly referred to as hho kits,
not to be mistaken with an electric kettle but they can actually boil water too?
Do they work? none that I have bought but I have been foolish enough to part with my money for many such devices and some weeks later put in the skip.

I became interested in the subject some three years ago after becoming an unemployed professional, something to pass the time with. At first I contacted most of our third level Institutes to be told I was mad, Hydrogen is very difficult, expensive and very dangerous to produce, energy required is much greater than the energy output. I began to experiment.
The days become long when one is without a job and short of cash,
I had nothing to loose and if the professors were correct possibly my life but as always I am like a dog with a bone.

OK, here are some facts, Electrolysis of water is a lot easier than most believe, it just takes some low voltage electricity and some electrodes and of course an additive to make the water more electro conductive and I do not mean baking soda, it corrodes the electrodes.

Two years on my 08 Mercedes C220 is a hydrogen hybrid, mpg was at most 48 on a long journey but with a 50 euro conversion achieves 60mpg within ten miles and within twenty miles will achieve 65-70mpg with more power.
Experts will say the engine will blow but 60,000 miles later its running better than ever because its clean burning.
There is an optimum energy input, any excess will result in waste and heat up such a device. I have one on my oil fired boiler and efficiency has improved by 16%. I simply use less oil and one litre of water per month.
Let me put this in perspective, one litre of petrol currently will cost you one euro and fifty cent, this will also buy you 8kwh electricity and you can easily convert this into 2200 litres of a hydrogen/oxygen gas ( two thousand two hundred litres) is it any wonder the powers that be do not want this technology known. Testing on a Scania 420 has shown in excess of 20% improved fuel economy and I am now working on a highly efficient CHP which will provide heating and electricity for my home. Smart metering feed in tarrif is just ten cent a kw which will result in my fuel cost less than zero.Take the Prius Hybrid which has 27kw battery storage, the batteries are well capable of making hydrogen as the sole fuel for the engine and require recharge just once a week depending on mileage, The solutions are already known but the powers that be will tell you it simply cannot be done. Its about carbon tax and Revenue collection.
A prominent TV personality once told me, if you were from silicone valley everyone would say you are a genius but because you are Irish you are talking rubbish. I can imagine some of the comments I will get here but I will provide evidence when the time is right. Hydrogen injection despite all claims does actually increase emissions because more fuel is being burned that would otherwise go out through the exhaust, emissions are reduced by better mpg. Hybrid conversions are a possible retro-fit solution for all existing petrol and diesel engines and home heating and with rising fuel cost, Will our Government eventually tax rainwater ?

hydrogenengine wrote: »

There is no gas storage required, the gas is produced on demand with low voltage from the battery/charging voltage, and is then injected via the air intake just before the turbo. One litre of water decomposed will produce 1860 litres of gas so top up with a quarter litre of water every week, depending on mileage.
The particulate filter was due to burn off at 56,400km but when tested at 50,000 had just 1% carbon, possibly there since before installation at 20,000 miles. The setup/emissions are checked using Snap On exhaust gas analyzer
which is a must have to regulate the amount of gas input, too much gas is worse than less. When the gas burns o2 reduces but co2 will increase at optimum combustion, too much gas will increase Nox emissions.
The setup is a fairly exact science gained simply from experience and proper test equipment.

hydrogenengine wrote: »

Its all about Energy,

Our Energy providers are pricing themselves out of the market, the consumer has little choice but to pay up. The price of crude is falling due to reduced demand and yet the price at the pumps is rising, The Irish Government are taking advantage without having the courtesy of telling us, ask any oil distributer. Hydrogen is the cheapest abundant fuel available,
The short term future I believe will be micro chp wherby we can provide our own energy needs and at low cost compared to any other fossil fuel.

Hydrogen when burned reverts to water, it is non toxic and harmless to humans
and is zero emissions. It is actually less dangerous than petrol as it dissipates into the atmosphere extremely fast and once diluted cannot ignite, Would you light a match at your petrol tank, unlikely as the fumes alone would ignite, with hydrogen it will not ignite unless the flame is applied at source. High pressure storage of hydrogen can be dangerous therefore produce on demand and it is within reach for us all to make our own fuel.
Why do you think the experts will say it cannot be done?? Figure it out for yourself.

hydrogenengine wrote: »

There are some electronics to control the gas input, the device has two cells in one, the first cell operates continuous from the time the engine is started, the second cell only operates when the engine reaches 2000rpm so town and motorway driving is considered.
For those of you interested in fuel cells check out www.thefuelcellstore.com
You will note the cost of producing pure hydrogen and then the amount of hydrogen that is required to run the cell to obtain electricity, I rest my case.
Metal Hydride is the safest means to store hydrogen and has a slow release rate but would be adequate for small engines. I will not disclose my experience in running an engine on hydrogen alone but I will state that ignition timing must be at close to TDC. This is difficult with some engines as they are difficult to remap. Ford developed a V10 hydrogen engine for F1 which was discounted due to sponsorship from oil companies.

hydrogenengine wrote: »

The best alternative I have seen is the Chevy Volt, the electric engine is the primary power drive train and the petrol engine is secondary and cuts in when battery is exhausted, this car is a prototype as yet and has not been put into production, currently due to high cost, Driving range on the electric motor is some forty miles which would suit a lot of people.

Before I answer any more questions on making hydrogen there are a few basis safety measures that must be considered for anyone intending to experiment.

Think of hydrogen as electricity going through a wire, its continuous, if you light a match to one end of a pipe the flame will immediately jump back to the source and cause explosion. The gas flame must be protected by a flashback arrestor or the pipe inserted into a water tank with an independent gas pipe at exit, the flame will not jump through water. There is no flame like petrol or diesel, its an instant flash, Develop a safety plan first.

That's several minutes of my life I'm never going to get back...

Matt Simis · 22-09-2011 08:22AM

cormac_byrne wrote: »

That device is useless as it will always take more energy (from the alternator) to generate the hydrogen than you will get back from later combusting it.

Not that Im pro or against HHO injection (Id like to play with it myself and see) but the difference between the "run your car on water" scams and the theory of HHO injection is:

- HHO injection operates like a catalyst, it affects the flame front speed and burning efficiency of the fuel. Petrol cars operate at approx 9% efficiency (25% in theory on the motor alone), any increase in this has a large affect on MPG.
- HHO is not burned directly as an [alternative] fuel therefore the much lower calorific value isnt really a factor in this regard. HHO units typically consume 7-15amps which isnt a huge amount of loading.
- HHO Injection needs to be combined with significant leaning out of the stock fuel mixture (via O2 mods) to allegedly large MPG gains seen online.
- The idea of performance increases via Injection isnt new, I used Water/Meth intake injection to cool the combustion temps, reduce knock and effectively "clean out" the engine on cars before. Water/Meth primarily increases safe boost range but also has a small positive effect on MPG.
- Running an ICE entirely on Hydrogen is possible, but as BMW have shown, woefully inefficient, the amount of time/energy needed to do this from a 12v powered device would be absurd.

Here is an interesting paper (I havent finished reading it) on the effects of Hydroxy on diesel Engines:
http://dpenergy.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Effect-of-hydroxy-HHO-gas-addition-on-performance.pdf
I dont know how unbiased it is, but considered it was showing net losses as well as gains pending different scenarios, it seems kinda legit.

However the most suspicious thing about researching HHO Online is its biggest supporters all tend to be blow ins with less than 20posts on the forums I have read.

Soulja boy · 22-09-2011 08:30AM

Hydrogen is actually quite expensive to pressurise, I don't see it replacing oil, which itself is finite.

Oh well, even 100 years ago we barely had any cars on the road, it might be nice to go back to that.

opinion guy · 22-09-2011 08:39AM

I got that the hydrogen was intended to function as a catalyst, but the fact that poster hydrogenengine wasn't able to explain that and seems not to understand it himself makes me very suspicious. I would imagine developing such a system as he claims he did would require a good chemistry knowledge, mechanical knowledge and electrical knowledge - he demonstrates none of these.

I mean surely if this works - someone would be able to explain what chemical reactions are going on ? And surely if it did work it would be easy to prove and someone would be running a very successful business and the car manufacturers would be interested.

Matt Simis wrote: »

However the most suspicious thing about researching HHO Online is its biggest supporters all tend to be blow ins with less than 20posts on the forums I have read.

Exactly. The fact that there claims all seem cut and paste and not understood also doesn't help.

Hey Matt though if you get it to work yourself do let us know!!

Soulja boy · 22-09-2011 08:51AM

That's not entirely true, the fule pumps themselves require pressurised H, and that is expensive, I wasn't commenting on the car's efficiency which is admittedly superb.

opinion guy · 22-09-2011 09:05AM

Soulja boy wrote: »

That's not entirely true, the fule pumps themselves require pressurised H, and that is expensive, I wasn't commenting on the car's efficiency which is admittedly superb.

Are you talking to me ?

You should probably read the recent posts because we are not talkint about fuel cells at the moment.
Whats being discussed here is using a small electrolysis motor to generate small amounts of hydrogen to inject into a conventional engine to mix with the petrol/diesel and air and provide greater efficiency. Supposedly - thats what one shiller poster is claiming (we think). The rest of us are debating this.

Soulja boy · 22-09-2011 09:07AM

opinion guy wrote: »

Are you talking to me ?

You should probably read the recent posts because we are not talkint about fuel cells at the moment.
Whats being discussed here is using a small electrolysis motor to generate small amounts of hydrogen to inject into a conventional engine to mix with the petrol/diesel and air and provide greater efficiency. Supposedly - thats what one shiller poster is claiming (we think). The rest of us are debating this.

Actually I was quoting someone else, had the wrong page open, I thought I deleted my post.

seamus · 22-09-2011 09:50AM

cormac_byrne wrote: »

That device is useless as it will always take more energy (from the alternator) to generate the hydrogen than you will get back from later combusting it.

I just deleted a whole post because I was trying to figure out ways that it would be possible. But it's not.

It's a closed system; you cannot take power from the petrol-driven engine, insert it through the battery and use any process to then get more energy from that petrol-driven engine than you originally took. It's a physical impossibility.

You would have to have a *something* else involved, which is external to the loop. Even if you had a separate car battery doing in the electrolysis, this would be enough. Or a tank of something other than oxygen that you're burning the hydrogen with. But using the car's own electrical system to generate the hydrogen, cannot possibly cause it to yield more energy. It takes 286kJ from the engine to make a hydrogen atom. The absolute maximum amount of energy that you can get back is 286kJ.

There are ways of course that you could fool yourself into thinking that the engine is performing better. If you measure the power output, it will be higher. And if you aren't measuring the power drawn, you will think that you're getting more power to the pedal. You're not.

Any perceived effects are likely to be psychosomatic and drivers adjusting their driving behaviour when testing the hydrogen process.

If hydrogenengine has indeed a foolproof process for easily getting more out of an IC engine, then he should be happy to patent it and submit it for scientific scrutiny and on-track testing.

opinion guy · 22-09-2011 09:56AM

seamus wrote: »

I just deleted a whole post because I was trying to figure out ways that it would be possible. But it's not.

It's a closed system; you cannot take power from the petrol-driven engine, insert it through the battery and use any process to then get more energy from that petrol-driven engine than you originally took. It's a physical impossibility.

You would have to have a *something* else involved, which is external to the loop. Even if you had a separate car battery doing in the electrolysis, this would be enough. Or a tank of something other than oxygen that you're burning the hydrogen with. But using the car's own electrical system to generate the hydrogen, cannot possibly cause it to yield more energy. It takes 286kJ from the engine to make a hydrogen atom. The absolute maximum amount of energy that you can get back is 286kJ.

There are ways of course that you could fool yourself into thinking that the engine is performing better. If you measure the power output, it will be higher. And if you aren't measuring the power drawn, you will think that you're getting more power to the pedal. You're not.

Any perceived effects are likely to be psychosomatic and drivers adjusting their driving behaviour when testing the hydrogen process.

It isn't a closed system if the hydrogen pumped into the fuel/air mixture is actually changing the chemical reactions taking place. If doing this gives you a more complete or clean burn of the fuel then it is absolutely plausible......... in theory. Don't think of the hydrogen as fuel here - more as a catalyst to ensure you extract more energy from your petrol/diesel. Whether that actually happens in practice or not however, is another story.

If hydrogenengine has indeed a foolproof process for easily getting more out of an IC engine, then he should be happy to patent it and submit it for scientific scrutiny and on-track testing.

hydrogenengine didn't invent this - its all over the net. He also doesn't seem to understand what his own posts are trying to say

seamus · 22-09-2011 10:22AM

opinion guy wrote: »

It isn't a closed system if the hydrogen pumped into the fuel/air mixture is actually changing the chemical reactions taking place. If doing this gives you a more complete or clean burn of the fuel then it is absolutely plausible......... in theory. Don't think of the hydrogen as fuel here - more as a catalyst to ensure you extract more energy from your petrol/diesel. Whether that actually happens in practice or not however, is another story.

Yeah, got it now, found a link explaining it. My brain said it could work, but I couldn't figure it out.

Basically the same idea as replacing your spark plugs with lasers to get a better ignition.

Matt Simis · 22-09-2011 11:01AM

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, got it now, found a link explaining it. My brain said it could work, but I couldn't figure it out.

Basically the same idea as replacing your spark plugs with lasers to get a better ignition.

Or another analogy would be (and yes I know its not the same) a belt driven Supercharger. It runs off the engine directly, costing 20-80+HP. However it could give back about 250HP via increased Airflow and minimizing pumping loses, for a net plus. But at its core it still consumes petrol/power to make power.

cormac_byrne · 22-09-2011 11:47AM

Matt Simis wrote: »

- HHO injection operates like a catalyst, it affects the flame front speed and burning efficiency of the fuel.

Ok, and here is a HHO site which suggests exactly this

http://www.hhocarfuelcell.com/facts/hho_facts.php

It does seem quite plausible, however I would ask 2 questions.

1. Could the volume of gas generated by a tiny electrolysis unit be enough to make a measurable difference.

Most likely No.

2. Is the flame front speed of hydrogen actually faster than vapourised petrol.

No.

http://www.mb-soft.com/public2/hydrogen.html

"Even if all the other hurdles are overcome regarding using Hydrogen as a fuel, it seems to have yet another disadvantage, one that it shares with most other gaseous fuels: the speed at which a flame front travels is fairly slow for the purposes of conventional engines. With an ideal Hydrogen-air mixture, a flame front can travel at around 8 feet/second (at standard atmospheric pressure). Mark's Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers, Section 7, Gaseous Fuels, graph For comparison, a gasoline-air mixture (compressed) creates a flame front speed that ranges from around 70 feet/second up to around 170 feet/second in normal engines. Mark's Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers, Section 9, Internal Combustion Engines, Flame Speed."

hydrogenengine · 22-09-2011 12:38PM

opinion guy wrote: »

It isn't a closed system if the hydrogen pumped into the fuel/air mixture is actually changing the chemical reactions taking place. If doing this gives you a more complete or clean burn of the fuel then it is absolutely plausible......... in theory. Don't think of the hydrogen as fuel here - more as a catalyst to ensure you extract more energy from your petrol/diesel. Whether that actually happens in practice or not however, is another story.

hydrogenengine didn't invent this - its all over the net. He also doesn't seem to understand what his own posts are trying to say

Yes you are indeed correct, I didnt invent this, check out Faradays Law, it dates back to 1820. Also I do have a process patent, Someone here asked about the chemical reaction ? A well known Research Institute in Cork are carrying out an electro chemical analysis, this is being funded by a semi state
organisation to prove that the cell efficiency is what I believe it is.
This technology is not beyond most like minded people but to design a cell that will operate at a stable temperature with continuous consistent gas output has been my achievement. When you check out similar products on the net you will note the sellers are on a first name basis without a contactable address, Yes its a scam with most Ive seen, anyone who will tell you their cell gives out 10LPM at 20 amps do not know what they are talking about, buy one and see for yourself, you will in time realise you have just bought an electric kettle, A two litre diesel engine only requires a half litre per min and this can be achieved with just 5-6 amps, 70-80 watts.
The gas acts as a catalyst to increase flame spread with more complete combustion of the primary fuel. You dont have to take my word for it,
there are 17 vehicles in testing, an S320 Mercedes went from 25 to 37mpg driving on the M50, a Lexus G300 3LV6 petrol from 22/23 to 36+ motorway driving and this has been validated by the Lexus main dealer. People have very different driving habbits, most love the extra power and mpg is secondary, for the ones that wish to save fuel they have experienced up to 40% better mpg.
I now mostly supply HGVs simply because they drive at a consistent speed and usually over long distance and they get a better result.
The reason I previously referred to the Prius is because I was given one by a Toyota main dealer who explained that this car gets poor fuel consumption on motorway driving, around 35mpg, Testing was supervised by a main deal
and over seven days the mpg consistently improved to 62mpg.

I am not here to sell my product but merely to inform you that the technology does work when designed and installed properly and there are viable alternative renewables available..

Am I credible you may ask, in 2009 I was selected a participant in the Endeavour Entrepreneur Program at Tralee Institute,

The days of cheap energy is over, cost is rising to almost unaffordable levels, the future is in energy efficiency and until such time as our hydrogen economy evolves this can be considered an interim solution.

opinion guy · 22-09-2011 12:54PM

hydrogenengine wrote: »

Yes you are indeed correct, I didnt invent this, check out Faradays Law, it dates back to 1820. Also I do have a process patent, Someone here asked about the chemical reaction ? A well known Research Institute in Cork are carrying out an electro chemical analysis, this is being funded by a semi state
organisation to prove that the cell efficiency is what I believe it is.
This technology is not beyond most like minded people but to design a cell that will operate at a stable temperature with continuous consistent gas output has been my achievement. When you check out similar products on the net you will note the sellers are on a first name basis without a contactable address, Yes its a scam with most Ive seen, anyone who will tell you their cell gives out 10LPM at 20 amps do not know what they are talking about, buy one and see for yourself, you will in time realise you have just bought an electric kettle, A two litre diesel engine only requires a half litre per min and this can be achieved with just 5-6 amps, 70-80 watts.
The gas acts as a catalyst to increase flame spread with more complete combustion of the primary fuel. You dont have to take my word for it,
there are 17 vehicles in testing, an S320 Mercedes went from 25 to 37mpg driving on the M50, a Lexus G300 3LV6 petrol from 22/23 to 36+ motorway driving and this has been validated by the Lexus main dealer. People have very different driving habbits, most love the extra power and mpg is secondary, for the ones that wish to save fuel they have experienced up to 40% better mpg.
I now mostly supply HGVs simply because they drive at a consistent speed and usually over long distance and they get a better result.
The reason I previously referred to the Prius is because I was given one by a Toyota main dealer who explained that this car gets poor fuel consumption on motorway driving, around 35mpg, Testing was supervised by a main deal
and over seven days the mpg consistently improved to 62mpg.

I am not here to sell my product but merely to inform you that the technology does work when designed and installed properly and there are viable alternative renewables available..

Am I credible you may ask, in 2009 I was selected a participant in the Endeavour Entrepreneur Program at Tralee Institute,

The days of cheap energy is over, cost is rising to almost unaffordable levels, the future is in energy efficiency and until such time as our hydrogen economy evolves this can be considered an interim solution.

Well you will understand our skepticism i think ??

If all you say is true good luck. But do keep us informed ? Maybe some links to the electro chemical analysis results when they available ?
You must be getting interest from manufacturers also ?

Matt Simis · 22-09-2011 01:26PM

hydrogenengine wrote: »

You dont have to take my word for it,
there are 17 vehicles in testing, an S320 Mercedes went from 25 to 37mpg driving on the M50, a Lexus G300 3LV6 petrol from 22/23 to 36+ motorway driving and this has been validated by the Lexus main dealer. People have very different driving habbits, most love the extra power and mpg is secondary, for the ones that wish to save fuel they have experienced up to 40% better mpg.

Hmm, they are all very modern vehicles.
Where these vehicles modified in any manner (ie an EFIE to throttle O2 sensors to allow lean burn)?
What about a HHO controller to reduce output at low RPM and Idle?

Finally, considering this a small country.. how come no one here has heard of you and your experiments? How did these 17car owners come in contact with you?

cormac_byrne wrote: »

It does seem quite plausible, however I would ask 2 questions.
1. Could the volume of gas generated by a tiny electrolysis unit be enough to make a measurable difference.
Most likely No.
2. Is the flame front speed of hydrogen actually faster than vapourised petrol.
No.
http://www.mb-soft.com/public2/hydrogen.html

On point 1, thats the debate. We can theorise to no end here, but obviously one side presents data that contradicts the other's own data set.

On point 2, thats one ropey looking website (as ropey as the scammier HHO sites)! Everything I read suggested Flame Front speed was indeed faster. Have a look at this 1977-era NASA document, full of proper scientific analysis and methodology that specfically found the Flame speed to be faster with Hydrogen injection:

Adding hydrogen to gasoline significantly increased the apparent flame speed. This increase occurred at all equivalence ratios but was especially noticeable at lean equivalence ratios. At an equivalence ratio of 0.66, which is close to the lean-limit equivalence ratio of gasoline, the apparent flame speed was 61 percent faster with hydrogen enrichment.

Page 13:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19770016170_1977016170.pdf

Regardless, flame speed is just one factor.

hydrogenengine · 22-09-2011 01:40PM

opinion guy wrote: »

Well you will understand our skepticism i think ??

If all you say is true good luck. But do keep us informed ? Maybe some links to the electro chemical analysis results when they available ?
You must be getting interest from manufacturers also ?

I have been taking **** for a long while from skeptics but interest is steady now.,
Energy Efficiency seems to be the winner for now.
I have interest from an Irish/International PLC Company and strange as it may seem, an OIl Company, seems the margin on oil is small, there is more profit in an efficient means to create hydrogen as the origin fuel is just de ionised water and a cheap additive. gas production is currently 250L/kwh
solar and wind energy can also be used efficiently.
Rainwater can be harvested and treated, one does not have to dig it out of the ground and no refinement necessary either, in bulk it can be highly profitable, desalination is also possible using abundant seawater as the high temperature flame generated is well capable of the conversion.
Gas and oil burn at a temperature of just over 400 degC, Hydrogen burns at 600+ but on a particular substrate I cannot mention, again like a catalyst.
The possibilities are almost endless.
It has been an incredible journey getting this far, unlike the five years in college in a class of 40+. This time around my competition is small.
As Henry Ford once stated, Failure is only an opportunity to begin again more intelligently. In my endeavours I always think about that statement.

hydrogenengine · 22-09-2011 02:56PM

Matt Simis wrote: »

Hmm, they are all very modern vehicles.
Where these vehicles modified in any manner (ie an EFIE to throttle O2 sensors to allow lean burn?)
What about a HHO controller to reduce output at low RPM and Idle?

Finally, considering this a small country.. home come no one here has heard of you and your experiments? How did these 17car owners come in contact with you?

Matt,

Now that you are getting more technical let me shed some light here,

Anyone that tells you an EFIE is necessary dont have a clue what they are talking about, from 86 onwards most vehicles have an ECU, a computer that controls the fuel air mixture ratio into the engine, this HCU is further enhanced by an air sensor on the air intake and oxygen sensors on the exhaust manifold and or exhaust downstream. The air sensor sends a low voltage signal to the ECU
which varies depending on air volume/trottle position and the ECU changes the air/fuel mixture. Some so called experts will tell you that more oxygen is created by improved combustion and sensed by the sensor on the exhaust so to prevent the HCU from adding more fuel to match the air fuel ratio an EFIE is needed. Kane International in UK sell an exhaust gas analyzer called Snap ON, I use it all the time. This tells me when hydrogen is introduced into the system the oxygen level actually reduces, it does not increase at all so no modification is required, in fact there are no electronic modifications whatsoever required. The trick is to inject the correct amount of hydrogen, I got an add on piece of software as an optional extra, it measures NOx gas emissions which are not normally present but when you put in too much Hydrogen the NOx gas does appear.
Its just another scam, like someone stealing your money.
My Merc was tested at AIT automotive dept and using Mercedes computer software, diesel fuel injection reduced when the hydrogen was injected.
what does this tell you, and with no modifications at all. All Im doing is changing the air quality into the engine, its like on a wet day, have you ever heard people say, my car runs better on a wet day, well my system has an add on feature, the cell operates at a preset temperature and also generates a water vapor and this in turn has a latent cooling effect on combustion.
the computer engine testing had shown a lower engine temperature by just one degree.
They all thought it should have been at a higher temperature because of the hydrogen. By leaning out an engine fuel air ratio you can expect engine damage. I would not go there.
With the help of an electronics Engineer in UK we developed a piece of kit which allows me to remotely control the cell operation from inside the vehicle,
I drive the vehicle at say 100km/hr and can optimise the gas input for better mpg and or performance, this has given the the edge, I can tune for whatever requirements you may have. The gas input is precisely matched to each engine type and capacity. When the correct amount of hydrogen is matched to a particular engine the emissions read almost the same as without gas.
For your own sake dont believe anything you see on the internet, you will just waste your money.

Matt Simis · 22-09-2011 03:06PM

hydrogenengine wrote: »

For your own sake dont believe anything you see on the internet, you will just waste your money.

I hope the irony of delivering the message "do not believe anything read on the internet".. via an internet forum post is not lost on you!

Lets get down to it then, do you sell a kit that would be suitable for an enthusiast to mount to a car? You can PM me specifics if you like.

The fact you are saying Oxygen levels decrease and artificially leaning out the fuel is bad is both interesting and more in line with established automotive theory. However it flys in the face of many of the more "exceptional" claims from HHO advocates who claim this is a must have.. infact the NASA doc and the several other studies I have found did show that (like Ethanol) HHO mixes do "like" lean burn and perform much better in that environment. One cannot switch to Ethanol (which has a different Stoich.) without significant changes to Fuel supply and O2 control, hard to believe HHO is different.

And some specific questions if you will:

In your opinion, whats the correct amount of HHO to inject (L/min) to a 4.0Litre V8 and how have you measured and arrived at this value?
Regarding injection opening/nozzle, what is your view on the how HHO should be delivered (dripped, flow, misted via water injection nozzle etc)?
Again, how are you altering the HHO delivered pending engine load, it cannot be correct to always supply the same amount, not more than its correct to do so with petrol.

opinion guy · 22-09-2011 03:09PM

hydrogenengine wrote: »

For your own sake dont believe anything you see on the internet, you will just waste your money.

Are you aware of the irony of this statement ?

opinion guy · 22-09-2011 03:11PM

hydrogenengine wrote: »

..... This tells me when hydrogen is introduced into the system the oxygen level actually reduces, it does not increase at all so no modification is required, in fact there are no electronic modifications whatsoever required.

By leaning out an engine fuel air ratio you can expect engine damage. I would not go there.

Um....are these two statements not in contradiction to each other?

Matt Simis · 22-09-2011 03:19PM

opinion guy wrote: »

Um....are these two statements not in contradiction to each other?

Ill answer for him, they are not in conflict with each other as an oxygen reduction implies a rich condition, not a lean burn.

hydrogenengine · 22-09-2011 03:54PM

Matt Simis wrote: »

Ill answer for him, they are not in conflict with each other as an oxygen reduction implies a rich condition, not a lean burn.

Matt,

You mentioned a 4L, is it petrol or diesel and what make??

You have asked some questions that I will not answer here
IM not giving away any more than I have too in public
so perhaps direct contact may be a means to a better end.

I recently fitted for an old mate, a 5L v8 petrol engine
in a pick up truck, one of those US imports.

He is not interested in mpg but he did tell me that when driving he hardly needs to put his foot on the pedal, it seems to want to go by itself
but he did state lots more poke which was his primary interest achieved.

I also fitted on a Range Rover 2.7D,auto, mpg is up from 28 to 37
on motorway driving.
This system is the perfect solution for those of us that love what we drive but change because of poor mpg and later settle for less comfort.

If your vehicle does not tell mpg I have a scan gauge that plugs into the OBD2 port under the steering column and that tells any code faults before fitting the system and when calibrated to engine size and fuel type tells mpg
fairly accurately.
Im not getting much work done since I joined this site, smileeeeeeeeeeee

opinion guy · 22-09-2011 03:57PM

hydrogenengine wrote: »

Im not getting much work done since I joined this site, smileeeeeeeeeeee

LOL that happens.....welcome to boards

Is hydrogen the future of motoring?

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