Homophobia in Sports - Keeping Players in The Closet

LH Pathe · 19-09-2011 11:54PM

Football has been all about money since the bosman ruling. worst decision ever to give players total control, and so it proved. They only feel allegiance with the highest wage they can muster now. not so much an issue / risk of loss in GAA obviously. But in a team sport in particular you're talking about individuality discouraged when all must be on the same page. If there was even any there to begin with - but again it's a tough call in that environment where I'd otherwise urge folk to come out, come out. whatever you are

randylonghorn · 19-09-2011 11:56PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I remember when that GAA lad came out a while ago every fan of the GAA i spoke to about it called him either "the faggot" or "the queer" and were pretty much disgusted by it.

Really?

My father is a former county footballer and coached at local level. He's no longer young, and I wouldn't hold him up as a prime example of moving with the times or "political correctness", whatever that means.

Yet his only reaction to the news about Donal Óg was to shrug his shoulders and say "It's his own business!"

Neither did any other GAA person I spoke to refer to him in those terms. I wouldn't say they were all very supportive, but the only arguments I heard were about whether he was right to make it public or not.

You might need to look at the type of people you hang around with tbh.

JupiterKid wrote: »

People might ask why should gay sportspeople be out and that's it's a "private" matter - I loathe this point of view.

With straight sportspeople - you get to hear plently about their private lives - the WAGS, the "celeb" life, gossip etc. Yet gay players are supposed to remain closeted? Talk about a case of double standards!

Also, from the perspective of being good role models to young gay people struggling with coming to terms with their sexuality, it's a good thing to have out and proud sportsmen and women who can be those role models. So many youngsters look up to sports stars as role models.

I do see where you're coming from, but I think it has to be up to the person themselves whether they want to make their business public.

Just as gay sportspeople shouldn't be under pressure from clubs / managers / peers (if they are) to remain in the closet, neither should they be under pressure to come out and act as role models. Ofc, the courage of those who do is admirable (since unfortunately it is still an issue at some level), but it has to be the individual's decision.

TylerIE · 19-09-2011 11:59PM

mikemac wrote: »

The good people of Kildare North returned Emmett Stagg and he was involved in some seriously dodgy behaviour over a decade ago

Such behaviour was certainly more acceptable than being gay. That was just criminality, not "immorality". Kinda proves my point - a criminal is elected a decade before a gay man.

In the eyes of the good Catholics of the country you can turn away from criminality but once a gay always a gay.

TylerIE · 20-09-2011 12:06AM

randylonghorn wrote: »

Neither did any other GAA person I spoke to refer to him in those terms. I wouldn't say they were all very supportive, but the only arguments I heard were about whether he was right to make it public or not.

What was the general opinion on whether or not he was right?

Is it up to people to discuss whether or not he should talk about his relationship status, seeing as it would be a non issue for "straight" players?

Unique User Name · 20-09-2011 12:08AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-3cuCEt9k8

That is all..

mikemac · 20-09-2011 12:10AM

TylerIE wrote: »

Such behaviour was certainly more acceptable than being gay. That was just criminality, not "immorality". Kinda proves my point - a criminal is elected a decade before a gay man.

It's both realy, are you remembering it as I do?

STAGG IN THE PARK In 1994 Emmet Stagg, a Minister of State in the Fianna Fail and Labour coalition government, openly admitted indiscretion with a rent-boy in the Phoenix Park.

For weeks Stagg's resignation seemed imminent but eventually salvation came in the form of support from Tanaiste Dick Spring and Taoiseach Albert Reynolds who said "charity and restraint" should be shown to the government minister.

The Labour Party demanded a Garda inquiry into who told the press about Mr Stagg's late-night trips to the Phoenix Park. Emmet Stagg is still Labour TD for Kildare.

Was big news at the time but faded away and he has been reelected ever since.
http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/az-of-sex-scandals-119664.html

TylerIE · 20-09-2011 12:15AM

mikemac wrote: »

It's both realy, are you remembering it as I do?
Was big news at the time but faded away and he has been reelected ever since.
http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/az-of-sex-scandals-119664.html

Lol cheers for that, I wasnt aware of that incident.

I thought it was just the paramilitary links that you were referring to, but I see they were even more distant than I thought.

Still he was hardly a political role model.... and I see now hes married with kids, so theres enough leeway for the head in the sand types to ignore his sexuality.

mikemac · 20-09-2011 12:18AM

You're thinking of Frank Stagg, his brother
Active in the IRA and died in a British jail

randylonghorn · 20-09-2011 12:38AM

TylerIE wrote: »

What was the general opinion on whether or not he was right?

Mixed.

In fairness, the reasons advanced were mostly whether it would make life difficult for himself / whether he would regret it.

TylerIE wrote: »

Is it up to people to discuss whether or not he should talk about his relationship status, seeing as it would be a non issue for "straight" players?

Fair question, but people will do it anyway.

And I would suggest that Donal intended the whole issue to be talked about and discussed, in all its facets and aspects; that that was his whole purpose, in fact.

(Mind you, it's not always a non-issue for straight players either. The fact that they are straight is, yes. But the relationship status of sportspeople often hits the headlines, and in a much more negative way than Donal Óg's did. We don't even have to go across the channel to English soccer etc. ... one of the "gods" of Donal's own sport found his name being dragged through the national media a few years back, and he certainly didn't consent to it or intend it to happen).

tonycascarino · 20-09-2011 01:55AM

Cianos wrote: »

afaik the manager of Sankt Pauli is openly gay.

No he's not. It's the former club president who is.

im invisible · 20-09-2011 02:16AM

artanevilla wrote: »

It's Justin Fashanu.......

sorry,,

i wonderd when i heard that is right,
yer man of Gladiators never stood out as gay, but you'd believe it...

Another thanks-whoring post gone for ****, such is life.

blackwhite · 20-09-2011 10:37AM

TylerIE wrote: »

They are there and serve a purpose for those who wish to play with other LGBT individuals in an LGBT friendly environment. Its a social forum - just like the various Garda Sports Clubs and Work based sports clubs.

Genuine question on this point.

If someone started a team avdertised as for heterosexual people, how long would it take before there were protests claiming that it was discriminatory? And how would it be any different from forming a LGBT team?

Not intended as having a go at LGBT teams specifically, just seems to be double standards in play where it's OK to discriminate against the perceived majority (i.e. the Black Policemen's Associaton in UK - imagine the outcry if someone tried to start a White Policemen's Association; National Women's Council is ok - but a National Men's Council would be sexist).

4leto · 20-09-2011 11:45AM

blackwhite wrote: »

Genuine question on this point.

If someone started a team avdertised as for heterosexual people, how long would it take before there were protests claiming that it was discriminatory? And how would it be any different from forming a LGBT team?

Not intended as having a go at LGBT teams specifically, just seems to be double standards in play where it's OK to discriminate against the perceived majority (i.e. the Black Policemen's Associaton in UK - imagine the outcry if someone tried to start a White Policemen's Association; National Women's Council is ok - but a National Men's Council would be sexist).

Because its about exclusivity and inclusiveness, minorities feel they are on the outside looking in, they have a separate culture and there are real discriminations, so they group together to fight that, to fit in. So they find each other to feel included with-in a group with-in a group.

As for homophobia in sport, I agree with the OP, years ago in the stands of a football match the racist taunts was disgusting. Thankfully that has being reduced, but you still get the disgusting homophobic taunts.

The football racism campaign was a success, there should be similar for homophobia.

c_man · 20-09-2011 12:22PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I remember when that GAA lad came out a while ago every fan of the GAA i spoke to about it called him either "the faggot" or "the queer" and were pretty much disgusted by it.

Sounds like bull tbh. It was well known, I don't think any cared that much until it got out to the general public. Reaction I encountered was that he made a big deal out of it to up his books sales.

biko · 20-09-2011 12:29PM

Well if there is about 9% gay men then that means there's a least a few on every single sports team.
About 5% of women are gay (don't believe the porn) so a few in those teams too.

mickydoomsux · 20-09-2011 12:37PM

c_man wrote: »

Sounds like bull tbh. It was well known, I don't think any cared that much until it got out to the general public. Reaction I encountered was that he made a big deal out of it to up his books sales.

Well i'm glad i have you to tell me what i experienced in my own life

I live in a rural area, the folks around here were far less forgiving than the majority who genuinely didn't care.

I'd feel sorry for any fella/girl coming out in rural Ireland.

rugbug86 · 20-09-2011 12:41PM

blackwhite wrote: »

Genuine question on this point.

If someone started a team avdertised as for heterosexual people, how long would it take before there were protests claiming that it was discriminatory? And how would it be any different from forming a LGBT team?

Not intended as having a go at LGBT teams specifically, just seems to be double standards in play where it's OK to discriminate against the perceived majority (i.e. the Black Policemen's Associaton in UK - imagine the outcry if someone tried to start a White Policemen's Association; National Women's Council is ok - but a National Men's Council would be sexist).

It's advertised as a gay club but it's also straight friendly. It's not exclusively gay. I know of at least one straight guy who plays on a gay rugby team as it was the closest team to him for training. He didn't have an issue and either did any of the other lads on the team.

It's about inclusion. You don't HAVE to be gay to play on a gay team.

Jimoslimos · 20-09-2011 12:53PM

Wondering why this isn't in the LGBT forum but perhaps its to gauge reaction from general public.

Firstly I think a distinction needs to be drawn between team and individual sports.

Team players must;
1) Kiss the club/country badge at every opportunity
2) Acknowledge the fans
3) Not be gay

Interesting to note that most of the gay sportspersons who are out tend to play sports like tennis - individual sportsmen and women tend to have a different mindset to team players and don't feel the pressure to conform to 'team spirit' or 'not let the fans down'.

Also the tabloid media play a huge part in keeping players in the closet - look at the furore over top premiership players' private affairs, Cole, Giggs, Rooney, Beckham, etc have been front-page fodder before - imagine the hounding a player (especially a married one) would have if they were 'outed'

im invisible wrote: »

sorry,,
i wonderd when i heard that is right,
yer man of Gladiators never stood out as gay, but you'd believe it...

It was his brother, they both played professional football so easy mistake to make i guess.

blackwhite · 20-09-2011 02:07PM

rugbug86 wrote: »

It's advertised as a gay club but it's also straight friendly. It's not exclusively gay. I know of at least one straight guy who plays on a gay rugby team as it was the closest team to him for training. He didn't have an issue and either did any of the other lads on the team.

It's about inclusion. You don't HAVE to be gay to play on a gay team.

Fair enough. I've no real problem with having teams to cater for any specific grouping, be it racial, sexual orientation or whatever. We've
Just still think that if somebody set up a team and advertised it as a hetero team then there'd be massive outcry about it.

Jimoslimos wrote:

Interesting to note that most of the gay sportspersons who are out tend to play sports like tennis - individual sportsmen and women tend to have a different mindset to team players and don't feel the pressure to conform to 'team spirit' or 'not let the fans down'.

Just on that, my own GAA team has one openly homosexual player on the team. Nobody on the team really passes any heed to it (although he doesn't get subjected to as much of the slagging/banter that every other member of the team gets, probably down to fear of offence being taken). He's taken some abuse over his orientation from opposition during games (not too often TBH), but usually when he gets guff from the sidelines is for being a lanky string of p*** as opposed to anything else.

In team sports opposing players and supporters will pick up on anything that they think will rile their opponents. Players taking abuse regarding their sexuality isn't always based on homophobia, it's more likely due to opponents picking up on something that they believe the person is sensitive about, and will put them off.
Wayne Rooney and Frank Lampard get called fat, David Beckham has to endure countless chants about his wife & children and Fernando Torres gets called a ladyboy. All are just opposition fans trying to get into their heads and put them off their game.
Fans chanting that Wayne Rooney is a fat ******* doesn't mean that these fans are discriminatory against fat people, it's (a pretty poor form of) gamesmanship.

sunflower27 · 20-09-2011 02:18PM

The story about Justin is really sad. Such a promising career cut short.

Had not heard of that before.

4leto · 20-09-2011 02:23PM

blackwhite wrote: »

Fair enough. I've no real problem with having teams to cater for any specific grouping, be it racial, sexual orientation or whatever. We've
Just still think that if somebody set up a team and advertised it as a hetero team then there'd be massive outcry about it.

In team sports opposing players and supporters will pick up on anything that they think will rile their opponents. Players taking abuse regarding their sexuality isn't always based on homophobia, it's more likely due to opponents picking up on something that they believe the person is sensitive about, and will put them off.
Wayne Rooney and Frank Lampard get called fat, David Beckham has to endure countless chants about his wife & children and Fernando Torres gets called a ladyboy. All are just opposition fans trying to get into their heads and put them off their game.
Fans chanting that Wayne Rooney is a fat ******* doesn't mean that these fans are discriminatory against fat people, it's (a pretty poor form of) gamesmanship.

That's a good point, BUT what if the crowd start calling Rio Ferdinand a

Ni**er or a black bastard

or in the old days making monkey chants, that IMO is disgusting and totally unacceptable. I would say the same for any homophobic chant.

blackwhite · 20-09-2011 02:43PM

4leto wrote: »

That's a good point, BUT what if the crowd start calling Rio Ferdinand a
Ni**er or a black bastard
or in the old days making monkey chants, that IMO is disgusting and totally unacceptable. I would say the same for any homophobic chant.

Fair point.

I don't think that the abuse of this sort (or any really) is acceptable. More pointing out that the mass-branding of fans as racist/homophopic/etc is often misguided and lazy.

daveyboy_1ie · 20-09-2011 02:53PM

sunflower27 wrote: »

The story about Justin is really sad. Such a promising career cut short.

Had not heard of that before.

It was a disgrace and personally I think its the main answer to the OP's question. I read somwhere recently that Gareth Thomas is one of the only openly gay team players in world sports. There are quite a few inidividual sports players openly gay, but team sports its still a taboo subject.

4leto · 20-09-2011 03:00PM

blackwhite wrote: »

Fair point.

I don't think that the abuse of this sort (or any really) is acceptable. More pointing out that the mass-branding of fans as racist/homophopic/etc is often misguided and lazy.

I am not sure about that, you don't get more denigrating or racist then monkey chants. What if you where a blackman in the crowd listening to that anytime your hero/rolemodel had the ball. Pretty soon you would not want to attend the game, you would feel excluded from the beautiful game, The same would be true for a gay fan.

A little off topic, I use to go to the Ireland games when I could during and the Jack era and we use to chant "oooh agh Paul Mc Grath I say Ooh Agh Paul Mc Grath" to our national hero.

But I was reading in Tony Cascarino's book that in the early day Paul Mc Grath interpreted that as a monkey chant :eek: I had no idea and it definitely wasn't.

myself69 · 20-09-2011 03:05PM

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

I know of two gay football teams and a gay rowing club in Dublin and that's without being particularily interested in the issue or participating in either sport, so I'm guessing there plenty more and the exclusion and homophobia is probably a bit exagerrated.

Never heard of a gay rowing club in Dublin. What's the name?

Edit:
Found it. Phoenix Rowing Club. Was jogging past the municipal boathouse recently and wondering what the commotion was.

TylerIE · 20-09-2011 04:01PM

blackwhite wrote: »

Genuine question on this point.

If someone started a team avdertised as for heterosexual people, how long would it take before there were protests claiming that it was discriminatory? And how would it be any different from forming a LGBT team?

As stated already most LGBT Teams are generally for LGBT individuals or their allies / supporters (ie gay friendly people). As opposed to some comments about LGBT teams being self segregating, straight players are very welcome on most. As one poster stated Emerald Warriors have some (I believe a good few) straight players.

LGBT teams are minority groups, where people who face similar issues can be supported in a safe environment.

Fromthetrees · 20-09-2011 04:49PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iroF9r2AeIU

JupiterKid · 20-09-2011 08:09PM

It's pretty heartening to see that many of the posts on this thread I started about homophobia in sports and closeted players are supportive of changing the status quo. Very impressive for After Hours!:D

The culture in sport needs to change - there is little room for sportspeople to come out in a very macho and homophobic environment where many supporters chant the most disgusting and hate-filled words and put downs, where team managers and club owners foster an environment of secrecy and are unsupportive and indeed pretty hostile to gay and lesbian team players.

If racism can be kicked out of sport - then homophobia can too. But it's up to the clubs an sporting organisation to take a lead in this, and the onus should not just be on the sportsmen and women who take the very brave decision to come out.

Will I Amnt · 21-09-2011 12:15AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

If racism can be kicked out of sport - then homophobia can too. But it's up to the clubs an sporting organisation to take a lead in this, and the onus should not just be on the sportsmen and women who take the very brave decision to come out.

The difference and why I think it will never change is a player can hide their sexuality,it's obviously a different story with race.

Racism was more of less kicked out because it was a problem that people witnessed.
Because of the lack of openly gay players there is no evidence of homophobia therefore you can't really do anything about a problem that on the surface doesn't exist.

JupiterKid · 21-09-2011 12:19AM

cambo2008 wrote: »

The difference and why I think it will never change is a player can hide their sexuality,it's obviously a different story with race.

Racism was more of less kicked out because it was a problem that people witnessed.
Because of the lack of openly gay players there is no evidence of homophobia therefore you can't really do anything about a problem that on the surface doesn't exist.

Are you really serious? You're saying that homophobia is a "problem that on the surface doesn't exist?" Really? I think you'll find that it IS a problem, and one that needs to be tackled.

The sort of attitude that "it'll never change" is morally bankrupt. It can change and I sincerely hope that it does - becuase there are dozens, probably hundreds of closted gay sportspeople whose being in the closet is eating them up inside.

I know, I've been there myself.

Homophobia in Sports - Keeping Players in The Closet

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