Arrested for murder after killing burglar.. England.

[Deleted User] · 2011-09-18 16:35:25

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/18/suspected-burglar-stabbed-death-stockport Shouldn't he arrested for manslaughter? It was hardly premeditated.. And then he should be acquitted for it and given a medal.

#32 18-09-2011 06:49PM

Biggins

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strobe wrote: »

It's not just about material possessions though is it? If someone breaks into your home they might just want to rob your DVD player but they might want to rape your daughter or slit your wife's throat or smash your brains in...

I live alone so would have a certain amount of restraint should someone break into my gaff but if I had kids or if a girlfriend was staying over I would put anyone entering my home illegally down in a way where I was 100% certain that they would be completely out of commission for the immediate future without any hesitation. In my opinion someone is completely justified and ethically sound in taking that stance.

I agree - as a husband and father of four, I have to think of their lives, not just my own.
I certainly wouldn't care to take the gamble that a person breaking in might be still the gentlest creature in the world.
Sorry, I (like most here if possible I suspect) would defend first and be willing to pay for the consequences later, knowing my family are then safe from the person intruding.

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#33 18-09-2011 06:50PM

Son Of A Vidic

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Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Gotta love Ironic usernames!

Are you confusing Ghandee with Gandhi?

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#34 18-09-2011 06:52PM

Son Of A Vidic

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It really has to be a case of fight and defend, then ask questions later.

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#35 18-09-2011 06:56PM

Guy:Incognito

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hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Killing another human being is not ok. Vigilantism is not ok.

The only time it's ever acceptable is if you're directly saving someone else's life by doing so. I don't mean "he MIGHT have pulled a knife and stabbed me", I mean "I know he had a knife and he was going to use it."

Material possessions are not worth a human life.

Material posession are not worth MY life. Some scummer breaking in to the house? Meh.

Ask people who's houses have been broken in to if its as simple as just forgetting about it afterwards. Plenty of people are scared ****less for a long time.

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#36 18-09-2011 07:06PM

mackg

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evercloserunion wrote: »

Here we ****ing go.

There's nothing in the OP to suggest to me that he can't be charged for murder. If he intended to kill or cause serious harm to the guy, and he did kill him, then he is guilty of murder. He doesn't have to have planned the killing in advance for it to be murder, that's a common myth.

It could be manslaughter, if the guy didn't intend to kill him or cause serious injury, or if he was provoked. And no, the fact that the victim broke into his house doesn't mean he was provoked (legally speaking); he would have to be so angry that he essentially flipped out and lost control of himself.

Self-defence is an important part of our law and I would not hestitate to do everything necessary to protect a loved one, but self-defence does not extend to exacting violent retribution out on someone just because they messed with you and you want to teach them a lesson or prove your matcho credentials. No civilised society should allow that. (I'm not making any judgement as to what happened in this case, but people in this thread are defending the latter.)

Where?

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#37 18-09-2011 07:11PM

amacachi

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Ditch wrote: »

As far as I know, it's just standard procedure. They make an arrest so that statements can be compiled and the whole thing investigated properly in the usual way.

Aye, being arrested for something is completely different from being charged with something.

Anyway, with the way the law is in the UK only a gimp could actually get done for murder of an intruder. Real life isn't like CSI and proving a murder when the person who did the killing has a big part of the law on their side is extremely difficult.

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#38 18-09-2011 07:26PM

Liam Byrne

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hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Material possessions are not worth a human life.

Well if the scumbags get that message then they might reconsider trying to get other people's material possessions.

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#39 18-09-2011 07:31PM

The_Thing

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Burglars are nothing but scum and should be put to death.

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#40 18-09-2011 07:40PM

evercloserunion

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mackg wrote: »

Where?

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#41 18-09-2011 07:44PM

Outkast_IRE

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hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Material possessions are not worth a human life.

Get a haircut hippy

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#42 18-09-2011 07:44PM

Biggins

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evercloserunion wrote: »

...To be fair, a lot of people here aren't espousing that line, but at the same time most people don't seem to be aware of the concept of proportionality.

So you retract what you have said earlier?

I would say all of us are aware of the concept of proportionality - we will defend our home/lives and can only judge what force to be used as and sadly when such events occur.
The point you seemed to have missed being said is that we would react towards someone coming in - not going outward.
We DO have the brains the tell the difference and with that would use the concept of proportionality as you put it.

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#43 18-09-2011 07:50PM

evercloserunion

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Biggins wrote: »

So you retract what you have said earlier?

No--some people are taking the extreme view, some aren't.

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#44 18-09-2011 07:54PM

opinion guy

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Ok this:

strobe wrote: »

I would put anyone entering my home illegally down in a way where I was 100% certain that they would be completely out of commission for the immediate future without any hesitation.

- does not equal killing them.

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#45 18-09-2011 08:08PM

hollypink

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amacachi wrote: »

Anyway, with the way the law is in the UK only a gimp could actually get done for murder of an intruder. Real life isn't like CSI and proving a murder when the person who did the killing has a big part of the law on their side is extremely difficult.

I'm not so sure, theres the case of Tony Martin, a Norfolk farmer who killed an intruder, and was convicted of murder in 1999. It was dark and he shot the intruder in the back.

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#46 18-09-2011 08:14PM

looky loo

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come into my house uninvited I will introduce you to my rolling pin...end of.

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#47 18-09-2011 08:17PM

Kadongy

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More bloodlust.

Not judgemental of the man. His family were going to be home and he had no way of knowing what the burglars might do. The instinct is to protect and he acted on that. Doubt he feels like he should be given a medal though. He's probably horrified.

I think the appropriate response here is sadness rather than jubilance.

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#48 18-09-2011 08:21PM

strobe

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opinion guy wrote: »

Ok this:

- does not equal killing them.

Oh don't get me wrong. If I cracked them as hard as humanly possible in the back of the head with a lump hammer I would really really genuinely prefer if they both survived and suffered no lasting permanent injuries. But should they die, well, that would be unfortunate but acceptable to me.

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#49 18-09-2011 08:23PM

amacachi

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hollypink wrote: »

I'm not so sure, theres the case of Tony Martin, a Norfolk farmer who killed an intruder, and was convicted of murder in 1999. It was dark and he shot the intruder in the back.

12 years ago, in the back, quite a distance away from the house.

I should've been more specific and said "in the house". :pac:

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#50 18-09-2011 08:24PM

michael999999

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Any scum bag that breaks into a house deserves any beating they get!

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#51 18-09-2011 08:32PM

galwayrush

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strobe wrote: »

Oh don't get me wrong. If I cracked them as hard as humanly possible in the back of the head with a lump hammer I would really really genuinely prefer if they both survived and suffered no lasting permanent injuries. But should they die, well, that would be unfortunate but acceptable to me.

Better they die, cheaper on you and the state. Injuring a burgler only means the low life piece of **** gets to rob you through the courts for damages.

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#52 18-09-2011 09:02PM

hollypink

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amacachi wrote: »

12 years ago, in the back, quite a distance away from the house.

I should've been more specific and said "in the house". :pac:

No, in the Tony Martin case, the shooting took place in the house (maybe you're thinking of Padraig Nally?). He shot into the darkness so it seemed unfair to me that he was done for murder (changed to manslaughter on appeal). Actually a lot of things about that seemed unfair, especially that one of the other intruders tried to sue Martin for shooting him in the leg.

Maybe the law in the UK changed since then though?

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#53 18-09-2011 09:08PM

Kidchameleon

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Lad I know from Cabra, someone was climbing up his drainpipe to get in an upstairs window. The drainpipe came off and he broke his arm, sued my friend, madness!

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#54 18-09-2011 09:10PM

amacachi

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hollypink wrote: »

No, in the Tony Martin case, the shooting took place in the house (maybe you're thinking of Padraig Nally?). He shot into the darkness so it seemed unfair to me that he was done for murder (changed to manslaughter on appeal). Actually a lot of things about that seemed unfair, especially that one of the other intruders tried to sue Martin for shooting him in the leg.

Maybe the law in the UK changed since then though?

Could've sworn it was on the land. But yeah, the law was changed or it's interpretation was anyway. The level of "premeditation" has to be higher than for "normal" murder charges so to speak.

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#55 18-09-2011 09:22PM

Retrovertigo

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When are people going to learn that all cutlery should be banned?

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#56 18-09-2011 09:35PM

Biggins

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Kidchameleon wrote: »

Lad I know from Cabra, someone was climbing up his drainpipe to get in an upstairs window. The drainpipe came off and he broke his arm, sued my friend, madness!

I would have counter-sued for him causing the damage, to be honest.

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#57 18-09-2011 09:41PM

Liam Byrne

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Kadongy wrote: »

More bloodlust.

Bloodlust implies that the householder would want this to happen to satisfy their bloodlust.

We'd actually just prefer that all of the scumbags either (a) stopped being thieving scumbags or (b) walked themselves off a pier.

Their choice.

If they choose (c) - continuing to be thieving scumbags, then it's hardly our fault.

Anyone innocent or law-abiding should never, ever be harmed.

But if someone makes up their own rules, then all bets should be off.

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#58 18-09-2011 09:42PM

Kidchameleon

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Biggins wrote: »

I would have counter-sued for him causing the damage, to be honest.

I'm pretty sure my friend found out where your man lived, went around and threatened him and that was the end of it.

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#59 18-09-2011 09:49PM

Gummy Panda

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looky loo wrote: »

come into my house uninvited I will introduce you to my rolling pin...end of.

Sounds hawt

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#60 18-09-2011 10:06PM

Tony Full Lifesaver

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problem with going crazy to defend your family is that you're then in jail next time someone breaks in to attack them

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#61 18-09-2011 10:45PM

Kadongy

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Liam Byrne wrote: »

Bloodlust implies that the householder would want this to happen to satisfy their bloodlust.

We'd actually just prefer that all of the scumbags either (a) stopped being thieving scumbags or (b) walked themselves off a pier.

Their choice.

If they choose (c) - continuing to be thieving scumbags, then it's hardly our fault.

Anyone innocent or law-abiding should never, ever be harmed.

But if someone makes up their own rules, then all bets should be off.

You quoted me out of context and ignored most of my post.

The bloodlust I was referring to was in some of the responses on this thread. I said the guy who did it would probably have been horrified.

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