The Junior/Leaving Certificate state exams are rubbish

XxMCRxBabyxX · 14-09-2011 11:59PM

languagenerd wrote: »

I think the Irish system produces more well-rounded people, actually. If you do all higher-level subjects, you leave with seven Level 5 qualifications in subjects that could be as wide-ranging as from French to Home Ec to Agricultural Science. The English system forces you to specialize a lot earlier. Many people at age 16 don't know what they want to do with their lives. At least with the LC, you have the option of changing course to something completely different; you're not restricted to a certain faculty or field.

This.
For those who don't go to college, they have a well rounded education. For those who do they are provided with a lot more choice in what they may want to specialise in. No one knows what they want to do at 18. Not properly. The LC gives you a chance to have a better idea

I do think that bringing in a weighting system in the CAO would be a good idea.

KungPao wrote: »

That's fucking outrageous. To think he could be learning a language that isn't a waste of time.

I must ask my sister if he can at least dump Religion...

The education system in this country saddens me.

I don't see it as outrageous at all tbh.

It is currently a compulsory subject. And nothing to do with the OP. Deal with it.

And you don't have to do religion as an exam subject in the LC

KungPao · 15-09-2011 12:14AM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

This.
For those who don't go to college, they have a well rounded education. For those who do they are provided with a lot more choice in what they may want to specialise in. No one knows what they want to do at 18. Not properly. The LC gives you a chance to have a better idea

I do think that bringing in a weighting system in the CAO would be a good idea.

I don't see it as outrageous at all tbh.

It is currently a compulsory subject. And nothing to do with the OP. Deal with it.

And you don't have to do religion as an exam subject in the LC

Imo, Irish should be a module in Transition Year and nothing else.

Religion should be a transition year module too. like Irish, relatively interesting to be aware of, but ultimately unimportant.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 15-09-2011 12:18AM

KungPao wrote: »

Imo, Irish should be a module in Transition Year and nothing else.

Religion should be a transition year module too. like Irish, relatively interesting to be aware of, but ultimately unimportant.

In your opinion....

Personally, I think Irish should be studied.

And you do realise that a lot of of the religion course is based on studying other religions? It's not all bout the Catholic religion

Niles · 15-09-2011 01:28AM

KungPao wrote: »

Slightly OT...but still relevant to the rubbishness of JC/LC...

Can a student at the beginning of 2nd level be exempt from "learning" Irish?

My nephew is Irish, born here, parents from here and all that....but any way he can ditch it?

And Religion for that matter...

??

I went to a CBS, where religion was mandatory in theory. However, there were non-Catholic students, they were not required to participate in religion class, although they did have to attend simply for supervision purposes (they usually did their homework or whatever). There weren't any examples of Catholics not doing religion but I suppose if the parents really didn't want their child to learn it they would have got an exemption.

KungPao wrote: »

Imo, Irish should be a module in Transition Year and nothing else.

Religion should be a transition year module too. like Irish, relatively interesting to be aware of, but ultimately unimportant.

It would be very hard to compress all the complexities of the language into one year...

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

And you do realise that a lot of of the religion course is based on studying other religions? It's not all bout the Catholic religion

Very true. I didn't do exam religion, but even in ordinary religion I distinctly remember learning about Islam in 3rd year.

kincsem · 15-09-2011 04:29AM

http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/73843-taught-thought.html

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 15-09-2011 08:05AM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

This.
For those who don't go to college, they have a well rounded education. For those who do they are provided with a lot more choice in what they may want to specialise in. No one knows what they want to do at 18. Not properly. The LC gives you a chance to have a better idea

I do think that bringing in a weighting system in the CAO would be a good idea.

I don't see it as outrageous at all tbh.

It is currently a compulsory subject. And nothing to do with the OP. Deal with it.

And you don't have to do religion as an exam subject in the LC

Completely disagree with the LC being well rounded - it's almost entirely intellectual with very little scope for practicaliy (eg, things like driving, personal accounting, computer litteracy) or creativity. Yes, I know, you could say that these things should be studied outside of school, but why is that when the whole idea of school is to prepare you for life?

Even in the subjects that do offer this, scope is still limited: I did two years of LC English, and did ONE Shakespeare play, ONE Irish play and ONE novel? If you want a well rounded syllabus, bring in a lot more variety and don't waste two years studying a single item of literature.

I also disagree that ANY subject should be mandatory after JC. You might not know what you want to do, but you will certainly have an idea of what you don't want to do. When I was that age, I knew I wanted to travel and live abroad, yet still had to do Irish instead of a foreign language. All for the preservation of the language, but that's just stupid.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 15-09-2011 11:44AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

This.
For those who don't go to college, they have a well rounded education. For those who do they are provided with a lot more choice in what they may want to specialise in. No one knows what they want to do at 18. Not properly. The LC gives you a chance to have a better idea

I do think that bringing in a weighting system in the CAO would be a good idea.

I don't see it as outrageous at all tbh.

It is currently a compulsory subject. And nothing to do with the OP. Deal with it.

And you don't have to do religion as an exam subject in the LC

Completely disagree with the LC being well rounded - it's almost entirely intellectual with very little scope for practicaliy (eg, things like driving, personal accounting, computer litteracy) or creativity. Yes, I know, you could say that these things should be studied outside of school, but why is that when the whole idea of school is to prepare you for life?

Even in the subjects that do offer this, scope is still limited: I did two years of LC English, and did ONE Shakespeare play, ONE Irish play and ONE novel? If you want a well rounded syllabus, bring in a lot more variety and don't waste two years studying a single item of literature.

I also disagree that ANY subject should be mandatory after JC. You might not know what you want to do, but you will certainly have an idea of what you don't want to do. When I was that age, I knew I wanted to travel and live abroad, yet still had to do Irish instead of a foreign language. All for the preservation of the language, but that's just stupid.

Most transition year programmes include all those things that you mention: driving, it, etc

Also how did doing Irish stop you doing a foreign language most people do both? Or even do 2 languages and Irish!

StephenHendry · 15-09-2011 11:58AM

karaokeman wrote: »

I am only starting university now but there is no question in my mind that the two state exams in secondary school are useless and misleading for young students.

What you learn in secondary school for most subjects is completely irrelevant. In university, what you learn is thought from a different perspective, its thought a different way. I know a girl who hated plants in Biology for the LC and then loved it in university because she had a great lecturer.

And all work you put in for the JC/LC is really not worth the stress of end-of-year exams really. In university marks in second year account to your degree and even for first year what you make out of it accredits to studying abroad in third year.

Secondary school really doesn't prepare you for life in any way or other. It only teaches you how to learn information, cram and pass an exam. What you achieve in university is a gift for life.

If you asked me the British have a much better system with the A-levels. In their system they are "pre-degree" courses, something the LC could never qualify for.

i agree that they should certainly look at both, maybe they should be more continuous assessment , certainly there seems to be a big gap to 3rd level where the onus is on the student to take a more DIY approach to learning/studying where from my own experience of the LC is that you are spoonfed most of the time

languagenerd · 15-09-2011 12:41PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Completely disagree with the LC being well rounded - it's almost entirely intellectual with very little scope for practicaliy (eg, things like driving, personal accounting, computer litteracy) or creativity. Yes, I know, you could say that these things should be studied outside of school, but why is that when the whole idea of school is to prepare you for life?

I suppose I took a loose definition of well-rounded, but what I meant was that students don't leave school with just a specialist qualification in English and literature, or just Maths, or just Science or whatever. Doing seven diverse subjects does teach you different skills and different methods of learning/thinking. The way you learn languages is completely different from the way you learn Maths, for example.

As for practical skills, I learned a lot of those in TY. Not driving, they couldn't get someone in for that... but we did do personal accounting, I got a qualification in Microsoft Office, I learned how to speak in public, how to cook and sew, and how the legal system works here etc.

Even in the subjects that do offer this, scope is still limited: I did two years of LC English, and did ONE Shakespeare play, ONE Irish play and ONE novel? If you want a well rounded syllabus, bring in a lot more variety and don't waste two years studying a single item of literature.

I did LC English from 2007 to 2009 - we studied a Shakespeare play, an Irish play, a novel, a film and six poets - as well as essay-writing, short stories and five styles of writing (aka things like newspaper articles, speeches, letters, reviews.) How you can write that off as "two years studying a single item of literature" I don't know. It was hard to get the course finished, we had to do extra classes before school in the mornings!

yet still had to do Irish instead of a foreign language. .

What? I did Irish and two foreign languages for LC. No-one does it INSTEAD of one...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 15-09-2011 04:40PM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Most transition year programmes include all those things that you mention: driving, it, etc

Also how did doing Irish stop you doing a foreign language most people do both? Or even do 2 languages and Irish!

Basically, they wouldn't let me do French because my Irish was poor. I should really have put my foot down in retrospect.

languagenerd wrote: »

As for practical skills, I learned a lot of those in TY. Not driving, they couldn't get someone in for that... but we did do personal accounting, I got a qualification in Microsoft Office, I learned how to speak in public, how to cook and sew, and how the legal system works here etc.

But it's not mandatory. Not saying it should be, but a lot of the elements above should be a part of the main curriculum, even if on a non-exam level.

I did LC English from 2007 to 2009 - we studied a Shakespeare play, an Irish play, a novel, a film and six poets - as well as essay-writing, short stories and five styles of writing (aka things like newspaper articles, speeches, letters, reviews.) How you can write that off as "two years studying a single item of literature" I don't know. It was hard to get the course finished, we had to do extra classes before school in the mornings!

Considering the wealth of literature out there, no it isn't. Why not do a variety of plays and novels instead of just one?

What? I did Irish and two foreign languages for LC. No-one does it INSTEAD of one...

Yeah, I explained that at the top, they basically wouldn't let me.

Niles · 15-09-2011 05:11PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Basically, they wouldn't let me do French because my Irish was poor. I should really have put my foot down in retrospect.

That's a pity. Seems rather backward thinking on the school's part. The way Irish is taught means that a lot of students struggle with it in ways they don't in other languages, ones ability at Irish need not be indicative of their ability at French, certainly I was better at the latter than the former.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Considering the wealth of literature out there, no it isn't. Why not do a variety of plays and novels instead of just one?

Surely it would be quite difficult to fit in numerous texts in the to the timespan (two school years) of the course? I'm not saying it is a bad idea in principle. I studied English in college and I remember there were people who were hard pressed to cover all the set texts (with only one other subject to worry about). I can't see how this would work out in a Leaving Cert situation, possibly fit in one extra text but I'd say any more would be pushing it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 15-09-2011 05:14PM

Niles wrote: »

Surely it would be quite difficult to fit in numerous texts in the to the timespan (two school years) of the course? I'm not saying it is a bad idea in principle. I studied English in college and I remember there were people who were hard pressed to cover all the set texts (with only one other subject to worry about). I can't see how this would work out in a Leaving Cert situation, possibly fit in one extra text but I'd say any more would be pushing it.

Six or seven novels from different eras and different genres, one every two or three months. Just not as much bloody detail.

Downlinz · 15-09-2011 05:21PM

Junior Cert was the biggest load of rubbish. Having to go through mocks, the stress of everyone talking up a big exam. When your 15 and its your first so called "Big exam" you dont know any better but to assume that this is really important and you should work your ass off for it. Its undue stress for no real reward you realise in years to come looking at the bigger picture.

Not to mention 2-3 weeks less in your summer holidays. Could really do with more because the JC is stressful and is made stressful by teachers and parents. Not really fair to go through that and be expected to start into 5th year 9 weeks later, which is a difficult year where everything really steps up from what you're used to.

15-09-2011 05:35PM

Okay, super-patronising post alert, even though I do agree in theory that the LC needs a total overhaul in terms of teaching practice and curriculum.

karaokeman wrote: »

I am only starting university now

So how is it that you can comment so much on university level learning? It's not half as idealistic as you seem to think it is.

What you learn in secondary school for most subjects is completely irrelevant.

Not true in my opinion. You might never want to make a budget or work in a shop, but for most people maths is pretty important, if not at least useful in life. I've also used loads of what I learned in music class, home economics, chemistry, biology, geography, Irish and French. And that's even with having only taken Home Ec. and geography to JC level. If you choose not to use any of the skills that have been given to you, that's your choice.

In university, what you learn is thought from a different perspective, its thought a different way.

It's taught.

And all work you put in for the JC/LC is really not worth the stress of end-of-year exams really.

I didn't stress over end-of-year exams at all, it's no one else's fault if you were stressed. Given that it gets people into college and educates them, I would say it is worth the effort.

In university marks in second year account to your degree and even for first year what you make out of it accredits to studying abroad in third year.

That's not the case for all or most university courses. You shouldn't use one course as an example of the entire college experience.

It only teaches you how to learn information, cram and pass an exam. What you achieve in university is a gift for life.

Learning and cramming are skills I've used to their fullest in college, and as for university being a gift for life, it's the LC that got you there so it must be a gift too.

I do agree that second level education needs to have some serious work done to make it a better system, but I think you're not appreciating that secondary school has done a lot for you, it's even what got you into this perfect college experience you seem to love so much.

languagenerd · 15-09-2011 07:18PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Basically, they wouldn't let me do French because my Irish was poor. I should really have put my foot down in retrospect.

That's actually ridiculous, I know people who've got As in French while just scraping a pass in Irish! But surely that's down to your school rather than the entire LC system?

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Six or seven novels from different eras and different genres, one every two or three months. Just not as much bloody detail.

So, you're saying that, in order to have a "well-rounded" course, you'd get rid of the poetry, the plays, the essay-writing and the different language styles in favour of just doing novels? Or are you adding in 5 extra novels on top of what's one of the biggest courses? I agree with you that the course isn't perfect, but there just isn't time!

Downlinz wrote: »

Not to mention 2-3 weeks less in your summer holidays. Could really do with more because the JC is stressful and is made stressful by teachers and parents. Not really fair to go through that and be expected to start into 5th year 9 weeks later, which is a difficult year where everything really steps up from what you're used to.

Are you serious? 9 weeks isn't enough?!! It's longer than the holidays in many other countries... and if you were working, even the most stressful jobs, you'd only get 4 weeks holidays a year!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 15-09-2011 11:48PM

languagenerd wrote: »

That's actually ridiculous, I know people who've got As in French while just scraping a pass in Irish! But surely that's down to your school rather than the entire LC system?

So, you're saying that, in order to have a "well-rounded" course, you'd get rid of the poetry, the plays, the essay-writing and the different language styles in favour of just doing novels? Or are you adding in 5 extra novels on top of what's one of the biggest courses? I agree with you that the course isn't perfect, but there just isn't time!

1 - Most definitely so - but hey, I was 15 years old. What the eff did I know?

2 - Strawman argument - I did not say that. Not even close. What I said was more variety in the content. I never once mentioned getting rid of essay writing or poetry -those are your words, not mine. I most certainly did NOT suggest six novels on the same level of detail!! Exactly the opposite, I specifically stated :

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Six or seven novels from different eras and different genres, one every two or three months. Just not as much bloody detail.

languagenerd · 16-09-2011 06:44PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

2 - Strawman argument - I did not say that. Not even close. What I said was more variety in the content. I never once mentioned getting rid of essay writing or poetry -those are your words, not mine. I most certainly did NOT suggest six novels on the same level of detail!! Exactly the opposite, I specifically stated :

Apologies, I misunderstood. I was asking whether you were replacing the entire course with these novels or adding them in. Variety is a good idea, but even with less detail, I just don't think there's time! Poetry, in particular, takes months even though it's worth the least marks in the end.

AgileMyth · 16-09-2011 07:22PM

KungPao wrote: »

Imo, Irish should be a module in Transition Year and nothing else.

Religion should be a transition year module too. like Irish, relatively interesting to be aware of, but ultimately unimportant.

Whatever about your opinion on Irish you are very wrong about Religion. Rightly or wrongly Religion still shapes the world we live in.

Nolanger · 16-09-2011 08:12PM

AgileMyth wrote: »

Whatever about your opinion on Irish you are very wrong about Religion. Rightly or wrongly Religion still shapes the world we live in.

Yep, let's teach kids religion in school and wonder why we have so many IT jobs that can't be filled!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-09-2011 12:04AM

languagenerd wrote: »

Apologies, I misunderstood. I was asking whether you were replacing the entire course with these novels or adding them in. Variety is a good idea, but even with less detail, I just don't think there's time! Poetry, in particular, takes months even though it's worth the least marks in the end.

Plenty of time. Two years, for heaven's sake. When was the last time it took you two years to read one book?

Why does the poetry take months? A short poem can't take more than a few hours. A long one, a couple of days.

I think the problem here is the same problem with a lot of Leaving Cert syllabusses: the aim is to pass an exam, not to pass on knowledge or appreciation. And in that context, the Leaving Cert is not well rounded.

The Junior/Leaving Certificate state exams are rubbish

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