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Fine Gael's Brian Walsh attacks transgender people, surgeries shouldn't be funded!

  • 14-09-2011 12:43PM
    #1
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0914/1224304082329.html
    NEW FIGURES from the Health Service Executive show 14 people were approved to travel abroad for gender reassignment surgery over a five-year period.
    The surgery is not available in Ireland, but under the E112 scheme it can be arranged abroad and funded by the executive.
    Gender reassignment surgery is part of a treatment for gender identity disorder and involves the reconstruction of genitalia to resemble that of the opposite sex.
    The E112 scheme, or Treatment Abroad Scheme, provides a fund for treatments not currently available in Ireland which have been proven to be medically necessary.
    They can be carried out in any EU country or in Switzerland.
    Figures from the executive show 14 patients travelled outside the State for gender reassignment surgery from 2005 to 2010. Most of the operations were carried out in the UK, and none of the applications for treatment under the scheme were rejected.
    Female-to-male transgender operations can cost up to €60,000, excluding travel expenses and post-operative therapy costs. Male-to-female procedures cost about €30,000.
    Fine Gael deputy for Galway West Brian Walsh called on the executive to stop funding the operations.
    He said private healthcare insurers do not cover sex-change operations on the basis the procedures are not considered to be medically necessary.
    “There is a body of opinion within the medical profession that considers the surgery to be entirely inappropriate for the treatment of gender identity disorder,” he said.
    Patients in “overstretched emergency departments” would be outraged to discover the executive had been paying for people to undergo sex-change operations abroad while it cannot provide a hospital bed for those who need it most at home, he said.
    Mr Walsh said he was aware of patients with “very serious conditions” who had been denied funding for treatment abroad under the E112 scheme. “Yet the HSE are financing what many clinicians consider to be essentially cosmetic procedures,” he said.
    “If, in fact, the surgery is within the definition of what is medically necessary, the question must be asked why the procedures are not provided within the State at present?”
    In a statement, the executive said before a patient travels abroad medical evidence must be provided to it by the referring hospital consultant.
    The consultant must recommend the patient be treated in another EU country, and certify the treatment is medically necessary and a proven form of medical treatment.
    The treatment must also take place in a recognised hospital or other institution.
    The executive said the total cost of the procedures to the State was not available as the information was “commercially sensitive”.


    I'm ****ing fuming :mad:


«134567…16

Comments

  • #2
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    How does surgery in general work in this country? If someone has major surgery do they have to pay for it?


  • #3
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    How does surgery in general work in this country? If someone has major surgery do they have to pay for it?

    Depends on their insurance as far as I know.

    To be honest, I would like to see gender reassignment surgery being covered by private insurance, so that if it's not being paid by the state at least those who have private insurance can still get the surgery.


  • #4
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    Depends on their insurance as far as I know.

    To be honest, I would like to see gender reassignment surgery being covered by private insurance, so that if it's not being paid by the state at least those who have private insurance can still get the surgery.

    Is elective surgery covered under health insurance and surely they would cost a holy fortune.

    Plus I know that all "pre-existing conditions" are not covered in policies and isn't getting okay for that surgery something that takes years to get cleared by all the right people?


  • #5
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    Depends on their insurance as far as I know.

    But for those with no insurance?


  • #6
    Meesared
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭Meesared


    Does this guy have a Facebook page like most politicians seem to these days?


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  • #7
    Meesared
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭Meesared


    It should be available to everyone regardless of their income, not everyone can afford insurance. The current system works for a country our size, like only 14 people a year? Its not that much


  • #8
    Asry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    There is this part - “There is a body of opinion within the medical profession that considers the surgery to be entirely inappropriate for the treatment of gender identity disorder,” he said.

    I mean, is that true? I know that in psychiatric care there is a large divide between opinions of what is right and what is wrong as regards treatment practice.

    I know that things like cancer treatment surgeries are free because my dad had one without insurance when he had prostate cancer.

    Is sexual reassignment operation necessary the way having an operation to stop you dying would be seen as being?

    I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. But then I've had multiple operations on my ears and I don't think they were stop me from dying, just to stop me going completely deaf. As for insurance or no insurance for those, I don't know. They were done in different countries and I sure as s*** didn't need government approval to get them.

    Would the big one (as I refer to that particular operation in my head, because it's such a big thing and life-changing) be the same as that? It's not like those operations would stop you dying but they would dramatically help you keep living.

    If you see what I mean?

    [edit - if I said something offensive, it was really, really unintentional and I'm sorry. I don't really know the right terms and things and sometimes say things wrong anyway]


  • #9
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Asry wrote: »
    There is this part - “There is a body of opinion within the medical profession that considers the surgery to be entirely inappropriate for the treatment of gender identity disorder,” he said.

    I mean, is that true?

    No, this is NOT true.

    To quote something I posted in another thread,
    This is one study that's been referred to in the UK, I'll just quote the relevant bits, look under the chapter "The Efficacy of surgical techniques":
    A comprehensive review of post-surgical follow-up studies on transsexuals, spanning a period of thirty years, concluded, “In over 80 qualitatively different case studies and reviews from 12 countries, it has been demonstrated during the last 30 years that the treatment that includes the whole process of gender reassignment is effective.” 31

    Later studies have provided further evidence in support of this conclusion. Rates of regret are consistently low: one study32 calculated a regret rate of 3.8%, and found that regrets were commonly associated with poor surgical results rather than with any desire to de-transition. Another study33 found that 98% of patients expressed no regrets post-operatively. In addition, 91.6% were satisfied with their overall appearance; the other 8.4% were neutral. In a group that had previously suffered from extreme gender dysphoria, it might be considered quite remarkable that, following surgery, not one patient’s physical appearance had given cause for personal dissatisfaction.

    Similar results were obtained in a study34 that observed a satisfaction rate of over 90%: “Male-to-female surgery can achieve excellent cosmetic and functional results... None of the present patients claimed to regret their
    decision to undergo gender-transforming surgery.” Here again, as in other studies35, any dissatisfaction was generally associated with poor surgical results, many of which could easily be corrected through secondary surgery. Furthermore, as the quality of surgical procedures improves, it can be expected that rates of dissatisfaction should decrease over time – certainly, the most recently published study36 showed an especially high rate of satisfaction at 98%.

    This is the treatment for transgender individuals because it is very effective.

    There is no "body of opinion" blah blah blah, this is the treatment, and slandering it as "cosmetic" is flat-out bull****.


  • #10
    IngazZagni
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭IngazZagni


    Meesared wrote: »
    It should be available to everyone regardless of their income, not everyone can afford insurance. The current system works for a country our size, like only 14 people a year? Its not that much

    If we were to take your attitude on finances for everything, we would be in a bigger economic mess than we already are. It doesn't matter how many or little people opt for procedures like this, the bottom line is that this is non essential surgery and it should not be covered by the tax payer in any way. There are hundreds of patients with legitimate health problems on trolleys in hospital corridors around the Country and Mr Walsh is absolutely right in saying how people would be angry to find out non essential surgeries were being performed with tax payer money when legitimate essential surgeries are delayed because of a lack of resources due to financing.


  • #11
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Meesared wrote: »
    It should be available to everyone regardless of their income, not everyone can afford insurance. The current system works for a country our size, like only 14 people a year? Its not that much
    it's not even 14 people a year, it's 14 people over 5 years!
    IngazZagni wrote: »
    If we were to take your attitude on finances for everything, we would be in a bigger economic mess than we already are. It doesn't matter how many or little people opt for procedures like this, the bottom line is that this is non essential surgery and it should not be covered by the tax payer in any way. There are hundreds of patients with legitimate health problems on trolleys in hospital corridors around the Country and Mr Walsh is absolutely right in saying how people would be angry to find out non essential surgeries were being performed with tax payer money when legitimate essential surgeries are delayed because of a lack of resources due to financing.

    This is not non-essential surgery, and for citizens of an EU country, not having access to these surgeries (I think) would be a violation of their human rights.


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  • #12
    skregs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 746 ✭✭✭skregs


    Don't be hating just because he's right.


  • #13
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    skregs wrote: »
    Don't be hating just because he's right.

    I'm hating because he's a bigot picking on an extremely small minority that don't even have much in the way of rights in this country, and what he's talking about is effectively violating our human rights. :mad:


  • #14
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Links234 wrote: »
    This is not non-essential surgery, and for citizens of an EU country, not having access to these surgeries (I think) would be a violation of their human rights.

    There was a piece in the news 2 nights ago stating that people are having to wait several months for colonic biopsies, surely these would rate higher than what is seen by the larger part of society as non-essential surgery. I am not brushing it under the rug and ignoring the issues of people who are stuck in the wrong bodies, but merely saying that in the grand scheme of things, it is more an infringement of a persons human rights to not provide them with essential life saving treatment.


  • #15
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Links234 wrote: »
    what he's talking about is effectively violating our human rights. :mad:

    Can I ask where is it in the charter of human rights that states that a person has to be given gender altering surgery funded by their government? Not trying to demean a sector of society, but I would not think that you are placing a want as a need.

    It is not fair that people who wish to have these surgeries have to leave Ireland, but there are others who argue this about their cases in other medical related topics.

    The HSE is far above budget and if a ward was closed in Crumlin to facilitate 14 every 5 years, there would for the most part, be public out roar.


  • #16
    Asry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    I agree with wolfpawnat I'm afraid. I'm not saying that it's not a legitimate health concern as was suggested earlier, I know that it's appalling, but like a friend of mine on the continent said that us not having abortion is a violation of our human rights and....it's not, either.

    I mean, we're talking about a form of augmentation. If we follow the argument then I should be allowed a boobjob. I could only get one courtesy of the tax payer if my exquisite breasts were damaging my back or something.


  • #17
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    There was a piece in the news 2 nights ago stating that people are having to wait several months for colonic biopsies, surely these would rate higher than what is seen by the larger part of society as non-essential surgery. I am not brushing it under the rug and ignoring the issues of people who are stuck in the wrong bodies, but merely saying that in the grand scheme of things, it is more an infringement of a persons human rights to not provide them with essential life saving treatment.

    As far as I know, surgeries provided for transgender people under the treatment abroad scheme are funded by the EU in part, so even if the wildly exaggerated figures for the cost of these surgeries were true, the Irish medical system only pays a part of that cost.

    That's a complete red herring about the colonic biopsies. having people seek medically necessary treatment abroad has NOTHING to do with an overworked system... did the show actually point to a causation for the waiting times, and were transgender people that cause? No! no more than paying for treatment for any number of non-life threatening ailments is the cause for a wait of several months for a colonic biopsy.

    hey, why stop at the medical needs of trans people? why not stop treating people with broken bones? it's absurd.


  • #18
    emzolita
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭emzolita


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    How does surgery in general work in this country? If someone has major surgery do they have to pay for it?

    I had major brain surgery and have no insurance. I didn't have to pay, but I was on a waiting list for ages, which then got moved closer cause the problem became more dangerous.
    After the surgery I had to get plates and screws taken out of my skull but was on a waiting list for 5 years, cause it wasnt dangerous. (I ended up getting done in a private hosp on the National treatment Purchase Fund) cause I was waiting so long.


    This is an outrage though, are they gonna start saying that anorexics and people with depression are not going to be medicated because it's not a physical illness, disgusting!


  • #19
    Shakti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭Shakti


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    There was a piece in the news 2 nights ago stating that people are having to wait several months for colonic biopsies, surely these would rate higher than what is seen by the larger part of society as non-essential surgery. I am not brushing it under the rug and ignoring the issues of people who are stuck in the wrong bodies, but merely saying that in the grand scheme of things, it is more an infringement of a persons human rights to not provide them with essential life saving treatment.

    how long do you think transgender patients wait for surgery?


  • #20
    Shakti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭Shakti


    skregs wrote: »
    Don't be hating just because he's right.

    troll


  • #21
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Can I ask where is it in the charter of human rights that states that a person has to be given gender altering surgery funded by their government? Not trying to demean a sector of society, but I would not think that you are placing a want as a need.

    It is not fair that people who wish to have these surgeries have to leave Ireland, but there are others who argue this about their cases in other medical related topics.

    The HSE is far above budget and if a ward was closed in Crumlin to facilitate 14 every 5 years, there would for the most part, be public out roar.

    European Convention on Human Rights Article 13, Right to an effective remedy.

    my post here on the subject shows that this IS the effective treatment.


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  • #22
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    skregs wrote: »
    Don't be hating just because he's right.

    Please read the charter before posting again.


  • #23
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Asry wrote: »
    If we follow the argument then I should be allowed a boobjob.

    :rolleyes:

    not even gnna... :mad:


  • #24
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Links234 wrote: »
    As far as I know, surgeries provided for transgender people under the treatment abroad scheme are funded by the EU in part, so even if the wildly exaggerated figures for the cost of these surgeries were true, the Irish medical system only pays a part of that cost.

    That's a complete red herring about the colonic biopsies. having people seek medically necessary treatment abroad has NOTHING to do with an overworked system... did the show actually point to a causation for the waiting times, and were transgender people that cause? No! no more than paying for treatment for any number of non-life threatening ailments is the cause for a wait of several months for a colonic biopsy.

    hey, why stop at the medical needs of trans people? why not stop treating people with broken bones? it's absurd.
    But we are not stopping the needs of trans people:confused: if they need an x-ray, they get an x-ray. Colon biopsies are are not being stopped by trans gender members of society society and no where in ANY of my posts have I EVER stated that!!!!:mad: I merely gave it as an example as I was watching it on the news earlier this week.

    My posts state that the hospitals are backed up with people requiring essential, life saving tests and procedures and that these are not getting done, and the reason, there is not the funding to provide for these, so if there is not the extra funding for them, there is definitely not the extra funding for anything less than life saving.
    Shakti wrote: »
    how long do you think transgender patients wait for surgery?

    I am not an expert and never have looked into it myself, but I would have assumed a minimum of a few years. A person I know started their hormone treatment over a year ago and though I have not really discussed the matter with them (I frankly don't see it as an issue worth discussing as it doesn't bother me), but the impression I got is that it is a terribly long process.


  • #25
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Transitioning saves lives and SRS is part of that for many. 14 surgeries over 5 years is not very much at all, to cut that out does not save a large amount for the health service and sends a message to the transgender community that their needs are not important to this government.


  • #26
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Links234 wrote: »
    hey, why stop at the medical needs of trans people? why not stop treating people with broken bones? it's absurd.

    They are not medical needs. I have long-term illness - I have medical needs. What they have is cosmetic needs. And while I'm wholly sympathetic to their cause - What other cosmetic alterations does the state fund? I'd be interested to know.

    Your logic does your case no justice to be honest. You come across as intolerant to anyone who doesn't view this situation in the same light as you.

    All medical needs of trans-gender people are covered, just like any other citizen of this state. You feel that they have a right to receive transformational surgery. Therefore if you believe that the state should fund it - instead of getting angry, and posting obscenities - it might benefit you to outline to the casual reader why you believe this should be the case.


  • #27
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Links234 wrote: »
    European Convention on Human Rights Article 13, Right to an effective remedy.

    my post here on the subject shows that this IS the effective treatment.

    I have no doubt after a person has the surgery that they are more than satisfied, I watched the "Ladyboys" documentary 2 weeks ago and those who had the surgery were crying in happiness at the results, as I am sure that it makes them as though they are more a complete person.

    An Effective Remedy, is not stating that the country's government, and in the tax payers should fund body altering surgery. I wish Ireland had the money to help with getting people the surgery they want but we just can't do it. We as a nation are f*cked financially.


  • #28
    catch me if you can
    Closed Accounts Posts: 150 ✭✭catch me if you can


    Gender reassignment surgery should be funded by the government. i have no experience of it but i can see it as a basic human right for transgender people. and as a taxpayer i would hope my taxes would go towards things like this. Also on a seperate note childless couples should get one free round of ivf.


  • #29
    emzolita
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭emzolita


    dlofnep wrote: »
    They are not medical needs. I have long-term illness - I have medical needs. What they have is cosmetic needs. And while I'm wholly sympathetic to their cause - What other cosmetic alterations does the state fund? I'd be interested to know.

    Hi i'm just interested to know do you consider the likes of anorexia or bulemia, or self harm etc a medical problem or are they cosmetic problems, It's gonna be a debate forever I know with transgender issues. I also have a LTI and I although I feel I shouldnt have to wait 5years on surgery, I do consider their plight just as bad tbh.
    don't wanna open a Boards debate, just curious. x Em


  • #30
    IngazZagni
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭IngazZagni


    Links234 wrote: »
    it's not even 14 people a year, it's 14 people over 5 years!



    This is not non-essential surgery, and for citizens of an EU country, not having access to these surgeries (I think) would be a violation of their human rights.

    It is not essential, there is no physical reason to have this done, it's a mental thing. Having access and having the surgery (part) funded are two different things. Of course I believe these surgeries should be allowed but only at private facilities and with no public financing. This is what we are talking about here.


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  • #31
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    Transitioning saves lives and SRS is part of that for many. 14 surgeries over 5 years is not very much at all, to cut that out does not save a large amount for the health service and sends a message to the transgender community that their needs are not important to this government.
    Without sounding harsh, this gov couldn't give a hoot about anyone! A tad OT I know, but it is true, SNA's are being cut showing that Special Needs students are not important to the government, People left unemployed by the recession are having their JSA cut showing they are no concern to the government.

    I agree that something should be there to help people transition, but in the grand scheme of things, not many others will agree when wards are being shut, children being left behind academically, many thousands left to flee Ireland because of lack of work.


This discussion has been closed.
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