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Cannonball Run in the Leaf

1…457910

Comments

  • #182
    Hiace.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭Hiace.


    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    The EV1 was never sold only leased. It's also a fairly small two seater by the looks of those videos. It was also never mass produced and GM is only one manufacturer. Now just looking at what's on the market and extremely close to market:

    Nissan:
    Leaf

    Renault:
    Fluence, Kangoo, Zoe and others
    http://www.renault.ie/electric-vehicles/electric-vehicles/

    Ford:
    Ford Focus Electric
    http://www.ford.com/electric/focuselectric/2012/

    Volvo:
    C30 Electric

    Interesting plugin hybrids as well like this new Volvo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhZa3mlOI3w&feature=share

    I'll let those with deep pockets iron out the manufactures mistakes for them first.
    It'll be 10 years at least before such cars make economic sense.


  • #183
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    Hiace. wrote: »
    I'll let those with deep pockets iron out the manufactures mistakes for them first.
    It'll be 10 years at least before such cars make economic sense.

    If you watch the Nissan Leaf production video you'll see they're not quite reinventing the car with the Leaf. Take out fuel tank and add battery pack. Take out engine and add electric motor.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saPWgjsRcAQ

    That's why it's built on the same production line as other Nissan cars. Electric motors were invented before ICE. We have used them for a long time in transportation e.g. submarines, ships, trains etc. They are a refined and mature technology. While the battery technology hasn't been around as long or as refined, it's definitely not a leap into the unknown. In the video you'll see the Nissan people discuss the battery pack as a joint venture between Nissan and NEC. There is experience behind the design of the battery pack.

    All that is just to say the Leaf is simply a car, similar to other cars in most aspects. IMO the Leaf will still be going strong in 10 years.


  • #184
    Hiace.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭Hiace.


    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    If you watch the Nissan Leaf production video you'll see they're not quite reinventing the car with the Leaf. Take out fuel tank and add battery pack. Take out engine and add electric motor.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saPWgjsRcAQ

    That's why it's built on the same production line as other Nissan cars. Electric motors were invented before ICE. We have used them for a long time in transportation e.g. submarines, ships, trains etc. They are a refined and mature technology. While the battery technology hasn't been around as long or as refined, it's definitely not a leap into the unknown. In the video you'll see the Nissan people discuss the battery pack as a joint venture between Nissan and NEC. There is experience behind the design of the battery pack.

    All that is just to say the Leaf is simply a car, similar to other cars in most aspects. IMO the Leaf will still be going strong in 10 years.

    I can buy two new family cars for the price of one leaf.
    Or one new family car with €16,000 left for petrol.


  • #185
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    Hiace. wrote: »
    I can buy two new family cars for the price of one leaf.
    Or one new family car with €16,000 left for petrol.

    What car are you comparing the Leaf against? Please take a close look at the standard specifications for the Leaf:

    http://www.nissan.ie/NissanLeaf/BuyingALeaf/Specifications.aspx

    Then note it has telematic features like scheduled/remote climate control that are simply not available on any ICE car. I explained these features more fully in a previous post:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73691736&postcount=21

    The car I drove previously was a 2000 Audi A6 Avant Quattro Sport 2.5TDI. I only mention this because interior passenger space is comparable in the Leaf to my old A6 Avant. Boot space is smaller of course, it's not an estate, but is still plenty to fit buggy for baby, changing bag and a weeks shopping.

    Bearing that all in mind, can you tell me what car you're comparing the Leaf against?


  • #186
    Shane732
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,006 ✭✭✭Shane732


    I love the bit about the Cruise control with speed limiter; -

    It's a 100 bhp car - I wouldn't be too worried about needing a speed limiter!

    There are some nice features in it though. Ignoring the whole electric argument for a minute - do you actually like the look of the car though?


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  • #187
    Shane732
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,006 ✭✭✭Shane732


    Sesshoumaru wrote: »

    Bearing that all in mind, can you tell me what car you're comparing the Leaf against?

    A Skoda of course!!!


  • #188
    Shane732
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,006 ✭✭✭Shane732


    Can I ask you a couple of questions:

    Why did you buy the Leaf?

    Did you buy it purely because you think it'll be cheaper in the long run?

    How long do you intend to keep it for?

    Have you considered when you will need a new battery? How much will a new battery cost you?

    .


  • #189
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    Back on topic I guess, robbed these from ESB ecars FB page:

    The Leaf drawing attention from the public. I can honestly say when people do realise it's electric, a lot of people express genuine curiosity about the car. It's rare (for now) and people are interested, reasons enough to have it on the Cannonball run I feel.

    174117.jpg

    Crossing finishing line under it's own power ;)

    174116.jpg


  • #190
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    Shane732 wrote: »
    I love the bit about the Cruise control with speed limiter; -

    It's a 100 bhp car - I wouldn't be too worried about needing a speed limiter!

    There are some nice features in it though. Ignoring the whole electric argument for a minute - do you actually like the look of the car though?

    It's 110bhp or 80kw with 280nm of torque. It quite handily exceeds 160kph. I find the speed limiter handy when entering 30 to 60 kph zones. You generally can't use cruise control in these areas. Under manual throttle control it's easy enough to slip over the speed limit and get speeding points these days.

    Speed limiter may sound silly, especially when you put it as you do ;) But it's a useful function for everyday urban driving.


  • #191
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    Shane732 wrote: »
    Can I ask you a couple of questions:

    Why did you buy the Leaf?

    Did you buy it purely because you think it'll be cheaper in the long run?

    How long do you intend to keep it for?

    Have you considered when you will need a new battery? How much will a new battery cost you?

    .

    I could give you lots of reasons as to why I bought it. I'm not a climate hippy or anything, but from a scientific standpoint the debate over human induced climate warming is over. A couple of nutjob "scientists" out of 10's of thousands of scientists worldwide don't count as a credible opposition to man made climate change theory.

    Higher on the priority list for me personally are geopolitical reasons like not supporting despotic oil producing regimes. Along with the sure knowledge that as BRIC countries develop there will be massive demand for more cars and hence more oil. You can't argue with two basic facts, oil is a finite resource and demand for oil is increasing.

    Taking both of those together I still wouldn't have bought the car if I thought it would actually cost me more in the long run compared to a similar size and spec of ICE car.

    I intend to keep it for a minimum of 5 years, but 10 years is the goal.

    The battery pack in my car contains 4kg of lithium. If future battery packs are still using some lithium based technology, my pack will still be worth a good bit of money (trade in value). So my plan is to get a new battery pack for the car in 3 to 5 years time. But only because I would like to utilise a larger capacity pack to extend the range of the car. The new battery pack would have to be 48 kilowatt hours or greater to justify upgrading IMO.

    Plan B would be to have the battery pack refurbished in Sunderland whenever the capacity drops to 80% of original. You'll get conflicting opinions on when the batteries capacity will fall to 80%, however RAV4 EV's in the US have been easily getting over 150,000 miles on original battery packs without serious degradation. Each Leaf has a built-in internet connection as well, so Nissan is constantly monitoring the health of each of the 48 cells in my battery pack. Same for every other Leaf in the world, they've stated a private Leaf in Tokyo has done over 10,000 miles with 326 DC fast cahrges and battery capacity is still 100%. So I'm confident about the longevity of the battery pack in my car.


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  • #192
    keithclancy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,208 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    A Polo bluemotion uses 3.4 litres of fuel per 100km. So the 5 euro in your example would get you 100km of range per week. 5 euro electricity will get me 400km per week in my Leaf. Adding to that, the Leaf is bigger, has more gadgets and is more powerful. I was going outside to plug in the car and took this picture for you:

    Indeed, but the Petrol Tank in the Polo doesn't cost a fortune and doesn't 'wear out' either.

    You made some other points like a bus being more eco friendly, is it? It emits carbon gases, it also takes energy to get and process the fuel for the bus. How many people need to be on a bus in order to make it more eco friendly? In Ireland during the Celtic Tiger years we built lots of low density housing spreading out in all directions LA style. That's exactly the wrong way to build housing if you want to improve the efficiency of public transport. Buses and other public transport vehicles having to travel longer distances with fewer passengers on-board between stops.

    Yup, a bus is far more eco friendly than your Electric car, simply becuase most Generation is done with Gas Fired Turbines.
    I probably wouldn't argue against peak time buses (morning and evening commuters) being slightly more efficient (in cities like Dublin anyway), but what about the majority of the time when buses are doing all those long journeys to our far out housing estates with only 1 or 2 passengers on-board? It would be interesting to see if anyone has done calculations on this.

    Well I would say the initial footprint of manufacturing the Leaf in the first place and the disposal of those nasty batteries after your done with them would put the public transport only commuter in a fairly good head start.
    All that bus stuff is academic for me though. I'm currently averaging 2000km a month in my Leaf at a cost of €20pm. It's also a far far simpler machine with much fewer moving parts. It's possible you might mention batteries as others have done, I've said my piece on batteries before. Lets just wait and see, I'm confident it will work out for me in the long run.

    It's not 20 euros per month though is it ? you'll need to replace those batteries in a few years at quite a cost, the real cost =
    The cost to replace the entire battery pack after 5 years divided by the total amount of kilometers travelled + the cost per km you pay at the moment.

    That is the real cost per kilometer

    The most environmentally friendly thing you could do is keep your own car for as long as possible thereby saving the need for manufacture of a new vehicle, this also saves you money because your new car will lose most of its value in the first 5 years.

    Or on the other hand go out and buy an electric car, but please do not try to sell it as some sort of ultra cheap/ultra clean method of transportation, when its not.

    A. The electricity its powered from comes from Non Renewable sources
    B. The initial manufacture of the vehicle has an enviromental cost.
    C. The Battery Disposal has an environmental cost
    D. Manufacturing new batteries has an enviromental cost.
    E. Batteries are consumable and this is a large cost later on in the life of the vehicle and while Electric cars are mechanically simpler, the electrics are far more complicated (a failure point on a lot of cars equipped with internal combustion engines).

    Its a great idea but at the moment there is no environmental benefit or really much of a cost saving due to the initial high cost of investment and again high cost of re-investment in 5 years time.

    Just my 2 cents anyway after looking at the whole thing from a commuting point of view, i'm into buying second hand cars to let someone take the depreciation hit and that will never really be possible with electric/hybrid cars because you have to replace the battery pack anyway.


  • #193
    keithclancy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,208 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    Paparazzo wrote: »
    I don't need to point out the advantages of a car over a bike or public transport in the motoring forum! Add in a child and a car is pretty much essential. And you're forgetting about the people who want to pretend they're saving the planet. Actually, now the celtic tiger is dead there's a lot less of these gobshítes about.

    They do just fine in other countries without a car.
    5919767394_d7c470a342.jpg

    Just to point that out, I know a rake of families in the Netherlands that don't own a car, or just use the Greenwheels Car Sharing scheme when they do want to use one.


  • #194
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    All that bus stuff is academic for me though. I'm currently averaging 2000km a month in my Leaf at a cost of €20pm.

    Do you get a grant for that or something? Because surely my washing machine uses a lot less energy yet it costs a lot more to run!


  • #195
    krissovo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭krissovo


    This thread is hilarious, its quite shocking the lengths that people are going to to slate this car and the arguments against it are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Its as if this electric car is a threat to peoples manhood :D

    This event has opened my eyes to the possibility of owning one. It will fit my daily commute needs very well, its actually quite a good looking car and well spec'd. I would also enjoy getting one up on the tax man as I would drive past petrol stations on the way to work. I am not green or anything but I like to think I would do my bit even if its only to enjoy a petrol engined car for fun in my and my sons lifetime.

    We would still have two oil based cars in the family, a 1977 VW camper so thats my green bit and large family saloon.


  • #196
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    keithclancy wrote: »
    Indeed, but the Petrol Tank in the Polo doesn't cost a fortune and doesn't 'wear out' either.




    Yup, a bus is far more eco friendly than your Electric car, simply becuase most Generation is done with Gas Fired Turbines.



    Well I would say the initial footprint of manufacturing the Leaf in the first place and the disposal of those nasty batteries after your done with them would put the public transport only commuter in a fairly good head start.



    It's not 20 euros per month though is it ? you'll need to replace those batteries in a few years at quite a cost, the real cost =
    The cost to replace the entire battery pack after 5 years divided by the total amount of kilometers travelled + the cost per km you pay at the moment.

    That is the real cost per kilometer

    The most environmentally friendly thing you could do is keep your own car for as long as possible thereby saving the need for manufacture of a new vehicle, this also saves you money because your new car will lose most of its value in the first 5 years.

    Or on the other hand go out and buy an electric car, but please do not try to sell it as some sort of ultra cheap/ultra clean method of transportation, when its not.

    A. The electricity its powered from comes from Non Renewable sources
    B. The initial manufacture of the vehicle has an enviromental cost.
    C. The Battery Disposal has an environmental cost
    D. Manufacturing new batteries has an enviromental cost.
    E. Batteries are consumable and this is a large cost later on in the life of the vehicle and while Electric cars are mechanically simpler, the electrics are far more complicated (a failure point on a lot of cars equipped with internal combustion engines).

    Its a great idea but at the moment there is no environmental benefit or really much of a cost saving due to the initial high cost of investment and again high cost of re-investment in 5 years time.

    Just my 2 cents anyway after looking at the whole thing from a commuting point of view, i'm into buying second hand cars to let someone take the depreciation hit and that will never really be possible with electric/hybrid cars because you have to replace the battery pack anyway.

    1. The polo has hundreds of moving parts in its engine that wear out. Electric motors have 3 to 5 moving parts.

    2. You'll have to provide some figures to back up your claim. You have to account for the energy used to extract oil from the ground/seabed, transport it, refine it and transport it again (possibly several times) before it ever gets inside a fuel tank of any ICE vehicle. I can also if I choose to power my leaf as Gerry Wrixon has done down in Cork:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2011/0601/1224298200715.html

    It is also possible to sign up with Airtricity and only purchase energy from renewable sources.

    3. Firstly why do I need to replace it? Why can't it simply be refurbished in Sunderland to bring it back to 100% capacity if I need it? The battery pack doesn't stop working either, it will simply gradually reduce in capacity.

    4.

    * 14% of our electricity currently comes from renewables. 40% is our target by 2020.

    * All manufacturing currently has an environmental cost. To suggest we stop producing new cars and rely on our existing stock of cars (ICE or EV) is not a practical option. ICE cars especially have hundreds of moving parts in their engines, these wear and maintenance costs will increase over time as you get to replacing the expensive parts of a drive system.

    * You say disposal, I say recycle or reuse. A 24kwh battery pack that still has 80% capacity has many potential uses in industry or perhaps as storage for renewables. It also still contains 4kg of lithium, so no Leaf battery pack is ever going to end on the scrap heap, it will be completely recycled to extract the rare earth minerals from it.

    People could also keep their old battery packs and use them as part of an investment in a home photovoltaic system. People currently only go for water heating solar panels because the energy (heat) can be stored in your immersion tank. The battery pack from a Leaf could do the same job for a home photovoltaic solar panel system. The Leaf has already been demonstrated to power your home and a commercial product for this is due out early next year from Nissan.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/williampentland/2011/08/05/nissan-leaf-to-power-homes/

    The ESB is investing in smart metering for all homes and a smart grid. These battery packs can be charging at night helping to improve our energy efficiency and then during the day helping to meet peak demand.

    You writing them off as a liability is not correct. Those packs could still be money earners in the second half of their lives.

    * Everything has a manufacturing cost. I'm not trying to prove now or previously that the Leaf has no impact on the environment. If you're saying it has a significantly higher environmental impact compared to a similar spec and size ICE car, I'd ask you to prove it?

    * You'll have to clarify when you think the batteries will need to be replaced and why? I've already stated they don't simply stop working some day. You gradually lose capacity. You'll also have to give me a reason why an EV owner wouldn't simply refurbish instead of purchase a new one? I also have to ask you to justify that the electrics are far more complicated?

    5. I simply don't agree with your opinion. I also accept it's unlikely I'll be able to sway your opinion. So all I'll say is lets pick this up in 5 years time. Good or bad I'll let people know how I got on.


  • #197
    Hiace.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭Hiace.


    My one and only criteria is total inclusive cost over 5/10 years in comparison to buying a new petrol / diesel over 5 years.

    Not gizmo's or toys.

    Would anyone have the true cost comparison figures of both ?

    Taking all costs into account, inc. loss of interest of money on deposit.


  • #198
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    Hiace. wrote: »
    My one and only criteria is total inclusive cost over 5/10 years in comparison to buying a new petrol / diesel over 5 years.

    Not gizmo's or toys.

    Would anyone have the true cost comparison figures of both ?

    Taking all costs into account, inc. loss of interest of money on deposit.

    I have a straight forward point. It is not a fair comparison to compare the Leaf against a Bentley Continental GT or against a Nissan Micra. Neither of those cars are in the same segment as the Nissan Leaf. A fair comparison is the Leaf versus another new car of similar size, refinement level and specification.

    You can try to wriggle out of it by changing "specification level" to "gizmo's or toys". However most people want those "toys" as you put it and a cars secondhand value is affected by its specification level.

    You still have not answered what car you used in your comparison example?


  • #199
    dynamick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    Leaf may be worth importing from the UK in a couple of months.
    There is no VRT so you just pay currency change say 15%. I imagine you would get one for below €22K after christmas.

    Compare to say qashqai auto which starts at 30K. Price is not so mental after all.

    I do <5 trips over 150km per year. The lure of 16 euro a month for fuel is pretty strong.

    I guess you are taking a risk with battery life/cost but what is the experience with say prius battery pack? This has been around since 04 and they've sold millions. You can balance battery price risk with not having engine troubles. Diesel part failures can be very dear.


  • #200
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Any chance you can answer my question above http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74354287&postcount=194


  • #201
    krissovo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭krissovo


    smash wrote: »
    Any chance you can answer my question above http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74354287&postcount=194

    Sesshoumaru has posted plenty of evidence of the running costs, even the bloody car keeps a record of the costs. The question is pointless, your washing machine I expect is on during the expensive electricity rate and the car is charged using a night rate. So even if the car uses more energy its charged at night when there is little demand for electricity.


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  • #202
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    smash wrote: »
    Do you get a grant for that or something? Because surely my washing machine uses a lot less energy yet it costs a lot more to run!

    Night rate electricity is cheaper because power stations can't be turned off at night. This means we generate a lot of electricity at night that is wasted. Hence it is offered at a lower rate to consumers. We bought these timer things (very technical I know (= ) that we plug into our socket and then plug our dryer and washing machine into. We can turn on the dryer and washing machine, but the plug timer thingy doesn't let the juice start flowing until after midnight, which is when we get cheaper night rate electricity.

    The Leaf has a charging timer as well. I come home and plug my car in and it talks to the charger on my wall. But currently it is set not to draw charge from the charger until 00:10 every night. So my car uses electricity that would otherwise be wasted, increasing our efficiency and I get cheaper night rate electricity to power my car.

    The car keeps track of all energy taken in and generated by itself. Using the cars built-in data connection it uploads this data online daily and you can login via portal and check for yourself how much its been costing you.

    173651.jpg


  • #203
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    krissovo wrote: »
    Sesshoumaru has posted plenty of evidence of the running costs, even the bloody car keeps a record of the costs. The question is pointless

    The question is anything but pointless. If you get a reduced rate because of a grant then it's a false economy for short term running costs. The price of electricity is rising constantly. Once these cars become more popular the grants will disappear.

    Even working out the costs based on the chart here: https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/5485/173651.jpg

    At a full unit rate of 16c (March 2011 so it's more expensive now) then those 220kw would have cost €35. Not €15 as shows. It's a 50% reduction ffs.
    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    The Leaf has a charging timer as well. I come home and plug my car in and it talks to the charger on my wall. But currently it is set not to draw charge from the charger until 00:10 every night. So my car uses electricity that would otherwise be wasted, increasing our efficiency and I get cheaper night rate electricity to power my car.
    But disregarding the night time rate. Do you get a grant for it at all?


  • #204
    stimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,864 ✭✭✭stimpson


    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    You can try to wriggle out of it by changing "specification level" to "gizmo's or toys". However most people want those "toys" as you put it and a cars secondhand value is affected by its specification level.

    You still have not answered what car you used in your comparison example?

    OK, I was curious.

    Skoda Octavia Greenline 1.6 TDI is 21K. It does 3.8l/100km (around 5.7c/km) and comes with similar toys (cruise, bluetooth etc.) and has a similar power output(77 kW vs 80 kW). I can't find any specs for the boot size of the Leaf, so lets assume they are comparable. Both are band A road tax.

    100,000 miles in the leaf will cost 30,000 plus 223/19000*160000 = around €31,877

    100,000 miles in the Greenline will cost 21,745 plus 0.57*160000 = 30,865

    (based on numbers here: http://www.nissan.ie/NissanLeaf/BuyingALeaf/PricingAndRunningCosts.aspx

    and here: http://www.skoda.ie/IRL/Documents/PricingAndSpecs/26July2011/Octavia_Aug2011%20DDB.pdf)


    Oh, and the range of the Skoda is over 1000 miles per tank.


  • #205
    krissovo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭krissovo


    stimpson wrote: »
    100,000 miles in the Greenline will cost 21,745 plus 0.57*160000 = 30,865

    A basic Octavia Greenline is a desperate spec:p

    I did a similar comparison yesterday with a Golf Blue Motion, worked out that with my driving its a 3 year payback even with the leaf at €32k.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74342016&postcount=144


  • #206
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    krissovo wrote: »
    This thread is hilarious, its quite shocking the lengths that people are going to to slate this car and the arguments against it are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Its as if this electric car is a threat to peoples manhood :D

    This event has opened my eyes to the possibility of owning one. It will fit my daily commute needs very well, its actually quite a good looking car and well spec'd. I would also enjoy getting one up on the tax man as I would drive past petrol stations on the way to work. I am not green or anything but I like to think I would do my bit even if its only to enjoy a petrol engined car for fun in my and my sons lifetime.

    We would still have two oil based cars in the family, a 1977 VW camper so thats my green bit and large family saloon.

    in all fairness while most of us are not fans of electric cars were not trying to entirely dismissing the electric car , just trying to reason as to why the ESB is trying to sell this to everybody and claim it can currently compete with any car across a range. Even car manufacturers wont do that, ive never opened a paper to see ' hey, you in the 4x4 doing mega miles towing, buy a golf instead' the esb pulled this stunt to get some publicity for electric cars and try and dispel the notion that they are no use for long range driving , the only thing they did was re-enforce that.

    once enough people inside a close commute to a city(the exact people that for the last 10 years the government has been pleading with to use public transport) buy these electric cars then suddenly both the esb and the government will turn around and go 'fcuk , suddenly these charging points are costing us more money , and the people who would previously have considered the bus are now always taking their green-machines so its time to rise the price of parking and electricity for charging EV's to discourage them again'.

    That coupled with the esb having to run 3 phase lines to all these DC quick chargers, the inevitability of the EV's being taxed at the same rate as the A or B cars and the one day eventually that some scummers light one of these on fire and the batteries cause an explosion that takes out the nearest 4 cars around it , then suddenly youll have every EV driver asking themselves why did I buy this, the electricity costs make a polo cheaper to fuel , the tax is the same, and my insurance is huge because of the damage if one of these goes on fire.

    also a 30 minute quick charge - after the government takes away the subsidys it will probably be what, a 10er maybee , possibly more . but lets say your out in the bog arse of meath some day , theres only 1 charger, and some lads just pulled up, you have 2km left on your EV so you cant leave , so now you have to wait at a petrol station for an hour, what are you going to do for an hour ...... probably buy a coffee and a muffin , or a pack of smokes, if you have kids with you probably sweets to shut them up , so now your 10 euro has turned into 20 or more easily on things you wouldnt have bought otherwise. So you leave and set off out of there just as broke as you would have been with a polo , the diference is your time has been wasted and you know if you leave the m50 belt this will most likely happen again


  • #207
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    smash wrote: »
    The question is anything but pointless. If you get a reduced rate because of a grant then it's a false economy for short term running costs. The price of electricity is rising constantly. Once these cars become more popular the grants will disappear.

    Even working out the costs based on the chart here: https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/5485/173651.jpg

    At a full unit rate of 16c (March 2011 so it's more expensive now) then those 220kw would have cost €35. Not €15 as shows. It's a 50% reduction ffs.


    But disregarding the night time rate. Do you get a grant for it at all?

    There is no grant for home charging. If I charge it at home during the middle of the day I will pay the same rate day rate as everyone else. If I charge it at night I pay the same night rate as everyone else. DC rapid charging is currently free as is the slower on street charging.


  • #208
    stimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,864 ✭✭✭stimpson


    krissovo wrote: »
    A basic Octavia Greenline is a desperate spec:p

    Just an example. You could get a top spec Octavia with 4.5l/100km for 23k

    Hell, you could have a mid spec estate with 4.2l/100km for 23k.


  • #209
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    in all fairness while most of us are not fans of electric cars were not trying to entirely dismissing the electric car , just trying to reason as to why the ESB is trying to sell this to everybody and claim it can currently compete with any car across a range. Even car manufacturers wont do that, ive never opened a paper to see ' hey, you in the 4x4 doing mega miles towing, buy a golf instead' the esb pulled this stunt to get some publicity for electric cars and try and dispel the notion that they are no use for long range driving , the only thing they did was re-enforce that.

    once enough people inside a close commute to a city(the exact people that for the last 10 years the government has been pleading with to use public transport) buy these electric cars then suddenly both the esb and the government will turn around and go 'fcuk , suddenly these charging points are costing us more money , and the people who would previously have considered the bus are now always taking their green-machines so its time to rise the price of parking and electricity for charging EV's to discourage them again'.

    That coupled with the esb having to run 3 phase lines to all these DC quick chargers, the inevitability of the EV's being taxed at the same rate as the A or B cars and the one day eventually that some scummers light one of these on fire and the batteries cause an explosion that takes out the nearest 4 cars around it , then suddenly youll have every EV driver asking themselves why did I buy this, the electricity costs make a polo cheaper to fuel , the tax is the same, and my insurance is huge because of the damage if one of these goes on fire.

    also a 30 minute quick charge - after the government takes away the subsidys it will probably be what, a 10er maybee , possibly more . but lets say your out in the bog arse of meath some day , theres only 1 charger, and some lads just pulled up, you have 2km left on your EV so you cant leave , so now you have to wait at a petrol station for an hour, what are you going to do for an hour ...... probably buy a coffee and a muffin , or a pack of smokes, if you have kids with you probably sweets to shut them up , so now your 10 euro has turned into 20 or more easily on things you wouldnt have bought otherwise. So you leave and set off out of there just as broke as you would have been with a polo , the diference is your time has been wasted and you know if you leave the m50 belt this will most likely happen again

    I think the point of the ESB publicity run was that you don't lose the capability of taking a longer journey if and when the necessity arises. I think they proved this point. I don't recall the ESB or anyone else saying EV's are suitable for regular long distance journeys.

    I hate repeating myself, but currently we produce more electricity at night time than we use. In other words we waste a lot of electricity. Night time is when most EV users would charge. Can you explain how increasing efficiency by using electricity that is otherwise wasted will cost us money?

    DC rapid chargers are installed in large petrol stations. These stations already have 3 phase power, that's why they're ideal for DC rapid chargers. I'm not going to debate exploding batteries again, especially your example. Scummers setting fire to a fully loaded petrol car would be dangerous as well.

    The DC rapid chargers are currently free and petrol stations are not licensed to sell electricity. I do however have a RFID card from the ESB which is used for authenticating and operating the slow chargers. Eventually the DC rapid chargers will also use RFID cards. As I understand it you'll be billed for the electricity you use at the appropriate tariff for the time of day. This will appear on your home ESB/Airtricity/BG bill. I don't know where you're getting this grant stuff from?


  • #210
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    stimpson wrote: »
    OK, I was curious.

    Skoda Octavia Greenline 1.6 TDI is 21K. It does 3.8l/100km (around 5.7c/km) and comes with similar toys (cruise, bluetooth etc.) and has a similar power output(77 kW vs 80 kW). I can't find any specs for the boot size of the Leaf, so lets assume they are comparable. Both are band A road tax.

    100,000 miles in the leaf will cost 30,000 plus 223/19000*160000 = around €31,877

    100,000 miles in the Greenline will cost 21,745 plus 0.57*160000 = 30,865

    (based on numbers here: http://www.nissan.ie/NissanLeaf/BuyingALeaf/PricingAndRunningCosts.aspx

    and here: http://www.skoda.ie/IRL/Documents/PricingAndSpecs/26July2011/Octavia_Aug2011%20DDB.pdf)


    Oh, and the range of the Skoda is over 1000 miles per tank.

    You're leaving out a lot of important factors. The Leaf is operating at 100% efficiency the second you hit the start button. The car in your example is using a combined figure for fuel economy that you only achieve once the engine warms up and you reach optimal operating parameters. In reality the short school run, popping out to the local newsagent etc will be trips that are undertaken when engine conditions are not optimal.

    You also assume electricity and diesel stay the same price over those 160k kilometers. Diesel IMO will rise more than electricity. I posted earlier about smart grids, smart metering and the role EV's can play in those. You can look it up in this thread if you want to argue against electricity not rising as fast as diesel. Oil is finite and demand is increasing.

    Another important consideration is that the Leaf has no oil, filters, spark plugs etc and because it uses regenerative braking, the brake pads will wear less. There are hundreds of moving parts in the Greenline's engine that can go wrong. In fact normally in Motors I seem to recall most posters arguing that these ultra fuel efficient diesels will have reliability issues in later years. It's ironic now that most people pick them out now as weapon against EV's :D

    Speaking of super efficient diesels, don't expect the current crop to stay in the same tax band as the Leaf for much longer. There are newer diesels coming to the market soon that will have lower emissions. I would expect the government at the very least to create a new tax band that accounts for these newer super efficient diesels. There is a possibility then that EV's will get another lower tax band.

    All that said, the Leaf is a way nicer car than the Octavia Greenline. It revs almost silently to over 10k RPM in a single gear transmission. That is smoothness and refinement an Octavia Greenline can't beat. I took a Greenline Superb for test drive before buying the Leaf, I'd recommend anyone arguing against the Leaf at least take the opportunity for a free test drive of one.


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  • #211
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,875 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    I hate repeating myself, but currently we produce more electricity at night time than we use. In other words we waste a lot of electricity. Night time is when most EV users would charge. Can you explain how increasing efficiency by using electricity that is otherwise wasted will cost us money?

    This excess power is used to recharge Turlough Hill, the output from which is then fraudulently claimed to be "renewable" in our current figures.
    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    I'm not going to debate exploding batteries again

    You never debated them in the first place, other than a "lalalala I'm not listening" to anything about the lack of safety of advanced lithium batteries.

    You didn't respond to Eric's point about arriving at a station with its charger occupied either. Takes about three minutes to fill an ICE car, and stations are not going to have space for 10x the number of positions.
    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    The DC rapid chargers are currently free ... I don't know where you're getting this grant stuff from?

    That, possibly? And that the prices quoted do not tie in with (usage x unit rates) by any means. Night rate power is not as much cheaper as you seem to believe and having the two meters costs more money - unless the ESB is subsiding that for you too? Like I assume they spent our money installing a charge point for you too.


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