The luck of the Irish

Tiocfaidh Armani · 12-09-2011 12:23PM

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Apparently it began in the USA and initially meant bad luck. In the 19th century the Irish were at the bottom of the American social ladder. An Irishman was much more likely to be poor, unemployed, illiterate, homeless etc. They were seen as unlucky. At that stage, if you had the luck of the Irish, everything would be going wrong for you.

Later, after the American Civil War, the social status and attitude towards the Irish improved. The meaning of the phrase changed accordingly, helped by confusion between the four leaved clover (a symbol for luck) and the shamrock (a symbol for Ireland).

That's not quite right, unless the documentary The Irish in America was wrong.

It's a British colonial invention to explain away any success in politics, business, sports, academia or arts by a supposedly simian underclass of thick Paddies.

Pretty much correct. The Irish did well for themselves despite the claims by the Brits we were stick, ignorant, stupid bogmen.

The term The Fighting Irish came from the same period because of the Irish immigrants willingness and eagerness to fight the British to free America because of their hatred of all things British.

py2006 · 12-09-2011 12:36PM

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

Pretty much correct. The Irish did well for themselves despite the claims by the Brits we were stick, ignorant, stupid bogmen.

The term The Fighting Irish came from the same period because of the Irish immigrants willingness and eagerness to fight the British to free America because of their hatred of all things British.

I don't think the fighting Irish term came from our willingness to fight the British. It was more to do with the immigrants reputation for drunken brawls.

The Irish had a very bad reputation in America in the late 1800's and early 1900's. In fact, it was the golden age of Hollywood were there were some significant Irish stars that changed that attitude towards the Irish.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 12-09-2011 01:01PM

py2006 wrote: »

I don't think the fighting Irish term came from our willingness to fight the British. I was more to do with the immigrants reputation for drunken brawls.

The Irish had a very bad reputation in America in the late 1800's and early 1900's. In fact, it was the golden age of Hollywood were there were some significant Irish stars that changed that attitude towards the Irish.

I can only say what I see on the documentary while living in the US for the Summer. It was a documentary on the History Channel called The Irish in America. It was two hours long and was superb and that was the explanation it gave. The leader of the South while surrendering to the North said "you only won because you had so many Irish fighting for you". We were reknowned after the War of Independence because of our eagerness for battle against the British. Can imagine I'd have been the same if I was about then:D They had a chance of a fair fight against the British, something they didn't have at home, and they jumped at the chance.

Like I say though, I'm just posting what the documentary said.

Robdude · 12-09-2011 02:56PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Army#Ethnic_groups
The Union army consisted of some 2.2 million people....

45% were American whites
23% were German
10% were American blacks or ex-slaves
9% were Irish (200,000)
4% were Dutch
2% were Canadian
2% were English
2% were French
etc, etc....

Given the numbers, I'm not sure why the general would attribute the victory to the 9% of Irish troops when the Union army had more blacks, many more Germans, and consisted primarily of white Americans.

I don't have a break down of the Confederate Army but according to this:
http://www.florida-scv.org/Camp1316/Minorities%20in%20the%20Confederate%20Army.pdf

Nearly all of the same ethnic groups were represented in the Confederate army (there was an entire brigade of Irish and several German regiments along with a bunch of other groups). According to the paper, there were 40,000 Irish serving in the confederate army.

That number is also supported by this book, 'Irish Americans in the Confederate Army' (http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/book-2.php?id=978-0-7864-2998-1)

So ummm....

1.) The North had more Germans, Blacks, and Whites than Irish
2.) The South had twice as many Irish than the North

As best as I can tell, the North did have a mostly Irish brigade (Fighting 69th) but from what I can gather they didn't play a disproportionately significant role in the war. They were involved in more defeats than victories, suffered heavy casualties and eventually rolled into the 3rd and 4th Brigades of the 1st Division, II Corps.

Tiocfaidh Armani · 12-09-2011 03:03PM

Take it up with the documentary makers:D

deathrider · 12-09-2011 03:10PM

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

At present this is the luck of the oirish. But the glass is always half full where I come from so

Eh... That's not actually a glass, and I wouldn't advise drinking from it.

MugMugs · 12-09-2011 03:15PM

As luck would have it, it actually means we are not lucky at all at all at all

Caliden · 12-09-2011 03:45PM

In Vegas recently and my buddy (who wasn't evening playing) was always given the dice by this guy from Texas we got talking to whilst I was playing craps.
He highest streak was 20.

I got the dice twice and got a 2 on my first roll and 12 on my second....

fontanalis · 12-09-2011 03:58PM

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

It stems from the day of the Irish in the US. We weren't seen as very bright yet we always seemed to do well for ourselves so they would say it was the luck of the Irish. Seen it on a documentary on the History Channel.

Well if it was on The History Channel it must be true (a dig at the history channel, not you). There wasn't a fella with crazy hair saying it was aliens by any chance?

Tiocfaidh Armani · 12-09-2011 04:05PM

fontanalis wrote: »

Well if it was on The History Channel it must be true (a dig at the history channel, not you). There wasn't a fella with crazy hair saying it was aliens by any chance?

It seemed a well researched show from what I could see, I really enjoyed it. I loved the bit about the Fenian invasion of Canada to hold Canada to ransom until Britain left Ireland. As usual it was a fecking disaster:D Intersting stuff though.

The luck of the Irish

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