Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

Permabear · 12-09-2011 01:30AM #1

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ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 09:45AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yes lets destroy the lives of some of our most vulnerable citizens for the benefit of the market, great idea....

wolfpawnat · 12-09-2011 09:52AM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Yes lets destroy the lives of some of our most vulnerable citizens for the benefit of the market, great idea....

You forgot to mention lets cripple our vulnerable so we can pay banks back for idiotic lending and now they will not give families the loan of money for xmas and for back to school meaning they are going to lending firms instead which are often very harsh.

Of course a Banker in the ECB would say that, he is a money hungry a-hole only interested in what he can do for himself and his own, I would LOVE to see him live on €188 a week!!!!

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 09:59AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

You forgot to mention lets cripple our vulnerable so we can pay banks back for idiotic lending and now they will not give families the loan of money for xmas and for back to school meaning they are going to lending firms instead which are often very harsh.

Of course a Banker in the ECB would say that, he is a money hungry a-hole only interested in what he can do for himself and his own, I would LOVE to see him live on €188 a week!!!!

Yeah there is a lot of "I'm alright so **** you" going around at the moment. Very easy for comfortable middle/upper class to pontificate on what savage cuts to be taken when they will not affect them.

12-09-2011 10:00AM

Alright chrome, what's your idea then? Where is all the money going to come from to pay our highest-wages&benefits-in-europe rates?

wiseguy · 12-09-2011 10:00AM

Did anyone tell Jürgen Stark (winter is coming? :P) about our recent mortgage forgiveness ruckus

Yes lets destroy the lives of some of our most vulnerable citizens for the benefit of the market, great idea....

Yet its ok to hurt the "vulnerable" by:

Cutting welfare to maintain high public sector wages and pensions?
Or bailing out banks?
Or helping reckless borrowers who piled on debt like no tomorrow??

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 10:08AM

bluewolf wrote: »

Alright chrome, what's your idea then? Where is all the money going to come from to pay our highest-wages&benefits-in-europe rates?

Lets start looking at the wealthy of society rather than then the poor for a start.

Stuff like the bonuses being awarded to people in state owned banks, the payouts to politicians, the tax breaks being given to the already wealthy etc etc. If the state was willing to make decisions based on fairness rather than political points with the elite, we wouldn't have such a problem.

wolfpawnat · 12-09-2011 10:10AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The cost of living here is actually higher than 2007. Gas and Electricity have gone higher, food is more expensive, etc. Food in England is cheaper than here so of course they can have cheaper welfare rates and wages.

Make my weekly shop cheaper and the cost of my electricity and heating lower and I will gladly take a significant cut to my SW! The government have decided to allowed a 20% mark up in prices so they have to accept that people will need more money to pay them!!!

wiseguy · 12-09-2011 10:14AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The cost of living here is actually higher than 2007. Gas and Electricity have gone higher, food is more expensive, etc. Food in England is cheaper than here so of course they can have cheaper welfare rates and wages.

Make my weekly shop cheaper and the cost of my electricity and heating lower and I will gladly take a significant cut to my SW! The government have decided to allowed a 20% mark up in prices so they have to accept that people will need more money to pay them!!!

Have you considered for a minute that things could be expensive here because welfare is setting an artificial high floor under everything? A form of price/wage spiral inflation

The same UK that you mentioned has a much lower welfare than here, just cross the border and ask our neighbors

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 10:15AM

wiseguy wrote: »

Have you considered for a minute that things could be expensive here because welfare is setting an artificial high floor under everything?

The same UK that you mentioned has a much lower welfare than here, just cross the border and ask our neighbors

Jesus christ really? you are attributing inflation to the level of social welfare payments....

BTW I live in London and the social welfare here is far better than whats in Ireland, you are not comparing like with like.

wolfpawnat · 12-09-2011 10:18AM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Lets start looking at the wealthy of society rather than then the poor for a start.

Stuff like the bonuses being awarded to people in state owned banks, the payouts to politicians, the tax breaks being given to the already wealthy etc etc. If the state was willing to make decisions based on fairness rather than political points with the elite, we wouldn't have such a problem.

My ideas to save moola (FG/Labour feel free to use any of these in the Budget:D)

- No expenses for politicans, they are well enough paid, they don't need that too.
- No Child Benefit for households earning over €150,000 a year after tax.
- Stomp out ALL welfare fraud.
- 1% tax on people with assets over €2 million.
- All state, and semi-state body Board of Directors, CEO's, etc must take an immediate cut to their salaries, no one should be earning over €100,000 a year post tax!
- Rather than debt forgiveness, realistic talks between banks and people, if a person can only afford to pay back €100 a month, they that's all they can afford.

I am a genius I know, but I am too honest for Leinster House so I'd never get in!!!!!:D;)

wiseguy · 12-09-2011 10:20AM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Jesus christ really? you are attributing inflation to the level of social welfare payments....

Erm yes the two are very much related, remove rent supplement and watch rent prices plummet for example

ChRoMe wrote: »

BTW I live in London and the social welfare here is far better than whats in Ireland, you are not comparing like with like.

Really some figures so would be interesting to see..

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 10:20AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

My ideas to save moola (FG/Labour feel free to use any of these in the Budget:D)

- No expenses for politicans, they are well enough paid, they don't need that too.
- No Child Benefit for households earning over €150,000 a year after tax.
- Stomp out ALL welfare fraud.
- 1% tax on people with assets over €2 million.
- All state, and semi-state body Board of Directors, CEO's, etc must take an immediate cut to their salaries, no one should be earning over €100,000 a year post tax!
- Rather than debt forgiveness, realistic talks between banks and people, if a person can only afford to pay back €100 a month, they that's all they can afford.

I am a genius I know, but I am too honest for Leinster House so I'd never get in!!!!!:D;)

You are on the right track mate

wolfpawnat · 12-09-2011 10:21AM

wiseguy wrote: »

Have you considered for a minute that things could be expensive here because welfare is setting an artificial high floor under everything? A form of price/wage spiral inflation

The same UK that you mentioned has a much lower welfare than here, just cross the border and ask our neighbors

So what do you suggest, the gas and electricity price rises are coming into effect in the next few weeks. If we cut welfare people will have no heating this winter, and they will have no electricity because they will be behind in their payments. So they will freeze while waiting for a elitist government to reduce the price of living.

Tell you what, hold your breathe for that one, I'll attend your funeral

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 10:21AM

wiseguy wrote: »

Erm yes the two are very much related, remove rent supplement and watch rent prices plummet for example

Really some figures so would be interesting to see..

Rent plummet LOL, you are hysterical, thanks I needed a giggle on monday morning.

You are capable of using boards so I presume you know how to use google?

What should be done is a social housing setup like the UK, which over time would remove the requirement for rent supplement and overall save the government money.

wolfpawnat · 12-09-2011 10:24AM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Jesus christ really? you are attributing inflation to the level of social welfare payments....

Yes, they are also the reason the cockroaches will survive the end of the world and why water flows in different directions in toilets on the two sides of the equator

Forgetting of course that inflation is the main decider in the rates of SW, not the other way round, but there is no room for logic in some peoples lives!

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 10:26AM

ChRoMe wrote: »

Yes lets destroy the lives of some of our most vulnerable citizens for the benefit of the market, great idea....

Why bother discussing things when you can throw out mindless cliches?

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 10:26AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Yes, they are also the reason the cockroaches will survive the end of the world and why water flows in different directions in toilets on the two sides of the equator

Forgetting of course that inflation is the main decider in the rates of SW, not the other way round, but there is no room for logic in some peoples lives!

"I've made up my mind dont confuse me with facts"

Diarmuid · 12-09-2011 10:26AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I am a genius I know, but I am too honest for Leinster House so I'd never get in!!!!!:D;)

How much is that going to raise?

wiseguy · 12-09-2011 10:27AM

ChRoMe wrote: »

"I've made up my mind dont confuse me with facts"

What facts would those be or would you go tell me to use google again breaking the politics forums guidelines with your postings over and over?

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 10:27AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Why bother discussing things when you can throw out mindless cliches?

ITs not a mindless cliche its a very serious point and it ****ing scares me the blatant disregard many people in Ireland have for the welfare of the poor in society.

wolfpawnat · 12-09-2011 10:28AM

Diarmuid wrote: »

How much is that going to raise?

I'll take a ministerial position for national industrial wage with no expenses, so I will save about €200,000 a year!

syklops · 12-09-2011 10:30AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The cost of living here is actually higher than 2007. Gas and Electricity have gone higher, food is more expensive, etc. Food in England is cheaper than here so of course they can have cheaper welfare rates and wages.

Make my weekly shop cheaper and the cost of my electricity and heating lower and I will gladly take a significant cut to my SW! The government have decided to allowed a 20% mark up in prices so they have to accept that people will need more money to pay them!!!

Dole in the UK is 65GBP or about 71 euros a week. In Ireland it is 196 euro. While the cost of living might be less than Ireland, it is definitely not a half of what Irelands is. So is the UK meaner to its people or is Ireland overly generous? Its obviously the latter.

Diarmuid · 12-09-2011 10:30AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I'll take a ministerial position for national industrial wage with no expenses, so I will save about €200,000 a year!

My mistake. I should have quoted your whole list. How much are all your proposals going to raise?

wiseguy · 12-09-2011 10:31AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I'll take a ministerial position for national industrial wage with no expenses, so I will save about €200,000 a year!

Thats

28,900,000,000
-
200,000

28,899,800,000 to go

great start :rolleyes:

Current%252520Transfer%252520Payments.jpg

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 10:31AM

syklops wrote: »

Dole in the UK is 65GBP or about 71 euros a week. In Ireland it is 196 euro. While the cost of living might be less than Ireland, it is definitely not a half of what Irelands is. So is the UK meaner to its people or is Ireland overly generous? Its obviously the latter.

The dole part is only one aspect of an overall UK social welfare system. You are also eligible for a variety of other payments specific to your situation

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 10:34AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

My ideas to save moola (FG/Labour feel free to use any of these in the Budget:D)

- No expenses for politicans, they are well enough paid, they don't need that too. This will save a few million.
- No Child Benefit for households earning over €150,000 a year after tax. This will also save a few tens of millions.
- Stomp out ALL welfare fraud. This will meet lots of opposition from people who 'aren't rats' :rolleyes: and will cost money to do. Hard to know how much can be saved net of costs - possibly half a billion, for argument's sake
- 1% tax on people with assets over €2 million. - tax on their assets? Or their income? Because I don't have €2 million or anything near it, but I'd move all my assets out of the state for sure if that happened (well, I already did).
- All state, and semi-state body Board of Directors, CEO's, etc must take an immediate cut to their salaries, no one should be earning over €100,000 a year post tax! That will save a few million alright.
- Rather than debt forgiveness, realistic talks between banks and people, if a person can only afford to pay back €100 a month, they that's all they can afford. This won't bring any savings as we don't have debt sharing now.

I am a genius I know, but I am too honest for Leinster House so I'd never get in!!!!!:D;)

I don't disagree with any of your ideas (except taxing wealth - that will just drive wealth out of the country overnight). But if you add up all your savings, they still only come to under a billion in my guesstimate. We still need to find another 10 billion or 15 billion.

ChRoMe · 12-09-2011 10:34AM

I'm actually going to step out of this thread, as it appears that with the prevailing attitudes here, you all deserve the mess you are in.

You would make the right wing conservatives in the UK blush.

Monty Burnz · 12-09-2011 10:37AM

ChRoMe wrote: »

I'm actually going to step out of this thread, as it appears that with the prevailing attitudes here, you all deserve the mess you are in.

You would make the right wing conservatives in the UK blush.

I know, it's so hard to actually make a coherent argument when you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Best not to bother.

sarumite · 12-09-2011 10:38AM

ChRoMe wrote: »

BTW I live in London and the social welfare here is far better than whats in Ireland, you are not comparing like with like.

Ah, now..anyone who works in the UK knows of the "london allowance". I worked for the HPA (part of the NHS) in the southwest of England. The exact same position in London had a £5k a year 'london allowance' and even that wouldn't cover the difference in cost of living. Now you are guilty of not comparing like with like.

Godge · 12-09-2011 10:40AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

My ideas to save moola (FG/Labour feel free to use any of these in the Budget:D)

- No expenses for politicans, they are well enough paid, they don't need that too. Will save maybe €10m per year?
- No Child Benefit for households earning over €150,000 a year after tax.
- Stomp out ALL welfare fraud. So gross earnings would have to be over €250,000. How many people earning that much have children? very few, or kids have grown up, maybe save another €5m
- 1% tax on people with assets over €2 million. Are you taxing family homes? Is the % tax based on the asset value, so an old couple with a large home, a decent pension fund and some savings, would they have to pay it? Anyone with that amount of liquid assets would move it abroad, giving us a run on the banks, well done, just what we need. You can only tax property, something I would welcome, so agree that a proper property tax including the family home would raise €1 bn, if a fantasy tax on assets over €2m would be lucky to raise €2m
- All state, and semi-state body Board of Directors, CEO's, etc must take an immediate cut to their salaries, no one should be earning over €100,000 a year post tax! Little effect, there is not that many of them anyway (unless you include professors and consultants). Many will retire so the cost of pension plus replacement would cost more. The professors and consultants are in international demand so would move abroad reducing the quality of our health service and higher education. Saves no money at all.
- Rather than debt forgiveness, realistic talks between banks and people, if a person can only afford to pay back €100 a month, they that's all they can afford. Net cost to the taxpayer as everyone with a mortgage says they can only pay €100 per month is estimated at €20-30 bn.

I am a genius I know, but I am too honest for Leinster House so I'd never get in!!!!!:D;)

So even if your assets tax works you end up increasing the budget deficit.

Brilliant, just what we need.

Jürgen Stark: Abandon the Croke Park Agreement, cut welfare

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