Why do children have to go to school?

Aoifey! · 12-09-2011 01:29AM

whywonder wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, you can choose to home-school your children.

You can, but it's very rare in Ireland.

Chuck Stone · 12-09-2011 01:29AM

hondasam wrote: »

So chuck you just want to argue with someone.

No Ma'am.

El Weirdo · 12-09-2011 01:30AM

whywonder wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, you can choose to home-school your children.

Indeed, you can.

WindSock · 12-09-2011 01:30AM

digme wrote: »

why would he do something stupid like that? he seems smarter than you, so i doubt he will take you up on that.

Why is it stupid? They might have more answers in there that the op is looking for. And why make an unprovoked dig at me, digme?

hondasam · 12-09-2011 01:31AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Nope.

I wouldn't ask the question if I knew the answer.

I was thinking of googling it but I thought it might be better as a conversation on AH (poor judgement perhaps).

poor judgement yes it's 01.30, who wants a serious discussion on schools.
you sound rather annoyed in your posts, maybe you should go to bed.

hondasam · 12-09-2011 01:32AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

No Ma'am.

Yes sir you do.

Biggins · 12-09-2011 01:33AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

...I'm surprised nobody has picked up on the most important word in the title of this thread.

'have' i.e. forced by threat of sanction to attend a state run school.

It's bit 'Soviet' don't you think?

Read your post and honestly the first thought that came to mind was just "sometimes you do have to be 'cruel' to be kind."
School tries to give you further awareness and some answers to questions that as of yet, might not have even occurred to you.
With as little of that knowledge that you wish to pick up, after that the rest is up to you.
At least you can say the state (or someone) to some degree, tried its best in setting you off with a bit of knowledge so that you could take an eventual first step into the world after your schooling, on your own.

Chuck Stone · 12-09-2011 01:34AM

hondasam wrote: »

poor judgement yes it's 01.30,

Fair enough.

who wants a serious discussion on schools.

I'm not asking about schools. I'm asking why children are forced to go to school by threat of sanction.

you sound rather annoyed in your posts, maybe you should go to bed.

No Ma'am. I'm not annoyed at all.

Fremen · 12-09-2011 01:35AM

Let's come at this logically.

Is it reasonable to ask that every adult in modern society is literate and numerate? I'd say yes, more than reasonable.

The question then becomes how does one ensure that that happens. One possibility is to require that parents teach their kids. That's a bit inefficient, and some parents would definitely do a shít job. One very sensible solution is school. This has the side effect of socializing the kids at the same time.

Obviously, that's not the only solution. You could probably do something using the internet, but there's a certain cultural inertia involved here, too.

El Weirdo · 12-09-2011 01:36AM

Isn't it also better to have someone that is supposedly qualified to teach children than parents who may never have attained any formal qualifications doing it themselves?

If you were born to parents that couldn't read or write then you'd be at a bit of a disadvantage, wouldn't you?

Aoifey! · 12-09-2011 01:37AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I'm not asking about schools. I'm asking why children are forced to go to school by threat of sanction.

Because children start school at the age of 4/5. At that age they are not mature enough to make a decision on whether to attend school or not, so it's better make them all go so they can learn, mature, and in the future make a decision about whether they attend school or not when they are 15/16.

digme · 12-09-2011 01:38AM

WindSock wrote: »

Why is it stupid? They might have more answers in there that the op is looking for. And why make an unprovoked dig at me, digme?

You went to school yourself. Perhaps you can tell him what it did for you?

Chuck Stone · 12-09-2011 01:40AM

Biggins wrote: »

Read your post and honestly the first thought that came to mind was just "sometimes you do have to be 'cruel' to be kind."
School tries to give you further awareness and some answers to questions that as of yet, might not have even occurred to you.
With as little of that knowledge that you wish to pick up, after that the rest is up to you.
At least you can say the state (or someone) to some degree, tried its best in setting you off with a bit of knowledge so that you could take an eventual first step into the world after your schooling, on your own.

Yay \o/. Someone actually chewed on the question. Thank you Sir.

I would answer that children didn't have to go to school for centuries and there was plenty of progress made.

Actually, if you think about it, since children were forced to go to school there have been massive world wars where millions and millions of people have been killed.

So could I make the argument that school failed to teach people not to kill each other on an industrial scale?

Greentopia · 12-09-2011 01:40AM

Real answer?

Because it's an institution that while seemingly has fine, noble and egalitarian motives like the education of our young people actually is instrumental in ensuring the widespread submission to authority essential to the success and ongoing survival of the capitalist wage-labour system that began with the industrial revolution.

Schools, like prisons, and factories was simply one aspect of what Michael Foucault* calls the 'carceral system; the all-encompassing, all-powerful dominant mechanism which created-and recreates- modern society.

He argues persuasively that the disciplinary systems prevalent in all capitalist institutions-prisons, schools, factories, companies, universities, the military etc.-helped to ensure a submissive populace and the ongoing survival of capitalism.

*In his book Discipline and Punish: the Birth of the Prison System.-recommended reading

AH answer: to learn stuff so you can get a good job and career of course!
:pac:

Fremen · 12-09-2011 01:44AM

Greentopia wrote: »

He agues persuasively that the disciplinary systems prevalent in all capitalist institutions-prisons, schools, factories, companies, universities, the military etc.-helped to ensure a submissive populace and the ongoing survival of capitalism.

Historically speaking, weren't those same institutions a bazillion times more authoritative under communism?

WindSock · 12-09-2011 01:45AM

digme wrote: »

You went to school yourself. Perhaps you can tell him what it did for you?

Clearly sweet f.a. as here I am posting on the internet at 1.45 on a Sunday evening...

I would image there are more interesting theories in the CT forum though as regards to keeping people in an institution for 14 years after they learn the basic educational skills that enable them to function in society, which is done mostly in primary.

Biggins · 12-09-2011 01:45AM

Greentopia wrote: »

Real answer?

Because it's an institution that that while seemingly has fine, noble and egalitarian motives like the education of our young people actually is instrumental in ensuring the widespread submission to authority essential to the success and ongoing survival of the capitalist wage-labour system that began with the industrial revolution.

Schools, like prisons, and factories was simply one aspect of what Michael Foucault* calls the 'carceral system; the all-encompassing, all-powerful dominant mechanism which created-and recreates- modern society.

He agues persuasively that the disciplinary systems prevalent in all capitalist institutions-prisons, schools, factories, companies, universities, the military etc.-helped to ensure a submissive populace and the ongoing survival of capitalism.

*In his book Discipline and Punish: the Birth of the Prison System.-recommended reading

Piff... I would have said so that you can some day qualify for Starfeet Academy!
I'm hoping myself to still get on the next Enterpise!

El Weirdo · 12-09-2011 01:45AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Yay \o/. Someone actually chewed on the question. Thank you Sir.

I would answer that children didn't have to go to school for centuries and there was plenty of progress made.

But look at the technological advancements in the last century alone.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Actually, if you think about it, since children were forced to go to school there have been massive world wars where millions and millions of people have been killed.

So could I make the argument that school failed to teach people not to kill each other on an industrial scale?

You could, but it'd be a shit one. Education isn't the cause of wars. Surely religion would be a bigger culprit.

Chuck Stone · 12-09-2011 01:47AM

Aoifey! wrote: »

Because children start school at the age of 4/5. At that age they are not mature enough to make a decision on whether to attend school or not, so it's better make them all go so they can learn, mature, and in the future make a decision about whether they attend school or not when they are 15/16.

I think it's, frankly, a bit weird forcing children of 4/5 years of age to go anywhere even if it is a place where they are taught stuff which they may or may not want to learn.

longhalloween · 12-09-2011 01:50AM

Good education = Good job = Good life (usually)

Bad/No education = No job = no prospects (usually)

Chuck Stone wrote: »

So could I make the argument that school failed to teach people not to kill each other on an industrial scale?

Lateral thinking at its finest!

Aoifey! · 12-09-2011 01:51AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I think it's, frankly, a bit weird forcing children of 4/5 years of age to go anywhere even if it is a place where they are taught stuff which they may or may not want to learn.

Granted, Ireland does have an unusually young age to start school. In many other European countries it is closer to 7/8 when children start school. But at 7/8 I'd still argue they are nowhere near mature enough to make a decision on whether to go to school or not, so it is better off that they all go until they are mature enough to make that decision themselves.

Fremen · 12-09-2011 01:52AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I think it's, frankly, a bit weird forcing children of 4/5 years of age to go anywhere even if it is a place where they are taught stuff which they may or may not want to learn.

You spend most of your time fingerpainting at that age. They're learning how to interact with one another in a disciplined setting - that's a pretty important skill to have, unless you want to be a lighthouse keeper or something.

Chuck Stone · 12-09-2011 01:52AM

Greentopia wrote: »

Real answer?

Because it's an institution that while seemingly has fine, noble and egalitarian motives like the education of our young people actually is instrumental in ensuring the widespread submission to authority essential to the success and ongoing survival of the capitalist wage-labour system that began with the industrial revolution.

Schools, like prisons, and factories was simply one aspect of what Michael Foucault* calls the 'carceral system; the all-encompassing, all-powerful dominant mechanism which created-and recreates- modern society.

He argues persuasively that the disciplinary systems prevalent in all capitalist institutions-prisons, schools, factories, companies, universities, the military etc.-helped to ensure a submissive populace and the ongoing survival of capitalism.

*In his book Discipline and Punish: the Birth of the Prison System.-recommended reading

Nice reply. There's definately something sinister about the whole thing imo.

AH answer: to learn stuff so you can get a good job and career of course!
:pac:

I lol'd.

Greentopia · 12-09-2011 01:53AM

Fremen wrote: »

Historically speaking, weren't those same institutions a bazillion times more authoritative under communism?

Oh you think I'm making a case for communism? :pac: no, sorry. I don't favour any authoritarian systems of Government like communism as practiced in countries like Russia, Cuba etc, or capitalism or any system that seeks to enslave and brainwash the masses.
And that's all I'll say as this is AH not Politics

digme · 12-09-2011 01:54AM

WindSock wrote: »

Clearly sweet f.a. as here I am posting on the internet at 1.45 on a Sunday evening...

I would image there are more interesting theories in the CT forum though as regards to keeping people in an institution for 14 years after they learn the basic educational skills that enable them to function in society, which is done mostly in primary.

You enjoy posting at 1.45 so who cares .
Exactly.You learn maths and English in a few years.You don't do much thinking in school.
I know personally I don't recall solving many problems.

whywonder · 12-09-2011 01:56AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I think it's, frankly, a bit weird forcing children of 4/5 years of age to go anywhere even if it is a place where they are taught stuff which they may or may not want to learn.

But history, psychology and education have taught us (heh) that people who learn to read, write and problem solve at a young age find it easier to master these skills as they age. Would you put your child at a disadvantage by waiting until they were at an age (say, 11 or 12) where they might know whether they wanted to learn that 'stuff' or not?

And, as already confirmed- you have the right to home-school your children if you so choose. So you don't *have* to send them anywhere.

digme · 12-09-2011 01:56AM

Fremen wrote: »

You spend most of your time fingerpainting at that age. They're learning how to interact with one another in a disciplined setting - that's a pretty important skill to have, unless you want to be a lighthouse keeper or something.

Most children are out playing at that age and interact just fine.

Chuck Stone · 12-09-2011 01:58AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

But look at the technological advancements in the last century alone.

There were plenty of techonological advancements before children were forced to go to school. It's impossible to say whether or not technological advancement would decelerate or accelerate due to forced schooling.

You could, but it'd be a shit one. Education isn't the cause of wars. Surely religion would be a bigger culprit.

It's no more a shit argument than saying the world wouldn't be as advanced only for forced schooling (your argument).

I mean what good is progress if we just use it to destroy each other in wars on an industrialized scale?

Aoifey! · 12-09-2011 02:02AM

digme wrote: »

Most children are out playing at that age and interact just fine.

Not really, most children don't interact regularly with other children until they go to play school/school. They might for an hour at the playground every few weeks, but not on a regular enough basis to learn social skills.

longhalloween · 12-09-2011 02:05AM

What child likes school?

None.

Therefore, chances are they would not go voluntarily. So chances are many would never go to school.

As a result the population would be largely illiterate and lacking in basic arithmetic as it was BEFORE the education was enforced.

Incidentally it was also this time when war/famine/disease/zealotry/political upheaval/ injustice/ lawlessness was more prevalent.

And you think enforced education is a bad thing?

Why do children have to go to school?

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