Any questions about life behind iron curtain?

I went to the demos in Karl-Marx-Stadt as it was known at the time. It's previous (and now-again-name is Chemnitz). This is one of the three main cities in the state of Saxony - the other 2 being Dresden and Leipzig. At the time there was a saying in Saxony about it's three main cities, which went along the lines of: Chemnitz makes the money, Leipzig trades the money and Dresden spends the money (more on that in another post).

Now to answer your question: The 'Montags-Demos' as they were called (Monday demonstrations, since they were held every Monday) started on Monday, 4th September 1989 in Leipzig. In the second week of the demonstrations, on September 11th 1989 a few other cities in East Germany also joined the Demos. This was also the first one in my home town and I joined it - more out of curiosity really (I had just turned 18 the previous month and was still attending school). It will surely sound like a major anti-climax these days in a democracy, but there were basically just a few thousand people (I'd say maybe 5-7 thousand) who met at 'the Nichel' (a massive granite head of Karl Marx) on Karl-Marx-Allee - now Brueckenstrasse (here) at 8pm that they. We then all proceeded to walk down the main street for about an hour shouting 'Wir sind das Volk' (we are the people). At the time and considering the state it was then, it was absolutely exhilarating. Everybody knew that there were 'Stasi' guys (east German secret service) aplenty among us and nobody knew what would happen. Considering the last uprising in East Germany was back in 1953 there basically hasn't been any protest against the government in any numbers ever since and here we were - thousands of us protesting against our rulers!

There was no violence, no looting, no damaging of anything at all. It was just a few thousand people marching down the street shouting a slogan. And I tell you, it was a lot more exciting and scary than being in a proper riot (i.e. in the UK recently).

Just considering the stakes at the time - either way it was gonna change my life! Either we would win, the wall would come down and we'll all be free or we'd lose, the wall would stay and most of us would spend a good few years in a prison (or work camp or who the heck knew where) and never be able to get any kind of career. And I was 18 and just starting out in life - just bleeding amazing!

Hope that answers it, if not, I'll be happy to clarify.

Little Alex wrote: »

Thanks for that, simplybam. I didn't know that there were also demos in Karl-Marx-Stadt.

It originally started in Leipzig, but there were actually demos all over the DDR. As far as I know the biggest ones were generally in Saxony - most likely because - apart from Berlin - the three big cities in Saxony (Dresden, Leipzig and Chemnitz - aka Karl-Marx-Stadt - were the biggest cities in East Germany by population. As far as I remember according to the last census before the fall of the wall it was approximately 500.000 for Dresden, 400.000 for Leipzig and 320.000 for Chemnitz. I wouldn't put any money on those figures (or my memory, for that matter) but they're certainly not far off.

Morlar wrote: »

I have a few questions if you don't mind.

I know that's a lot of questions but the forum is quiet anyway, feel free to refer to some or all. Thanks.

I wasn't gonna quote your entire post, since this will be long enough as is, but I'll try to answer all questions. So, here goes:

a) This one is almost impossible to answer because you couldn't exactly run around complaining about officials. So long story short, there was much discontempt about the officials, but is was mainly kept within the family or your circle of friends.

b) You're right, slightly before my time, lol. But, here's what I know (or can deduce from growing up in the GDR). There must have been a number of rank and file members of the NSDAP who ended up living in East Germany, but to my knowledge (and I've done a bit of research on that too) there wouldn't have been any high-ranking NSDAP members leading any kind of comfortable life there. Most of the 'big' Nazis who 'got away with it' and got good jobs or government posts and the like after WW2 did so in West Germany. The GDR was rather efficient (and proud of it too) in hunting down - or helping others to do so - any leading figures of the Hitler era. Especially when you consider that the GDR was merely a satellite or puppet state of the USSR, I don't think they would have gotten away with it, if they had tried.

Another thing to keep in mind here is that many members of the NSDAP weren't Nazis by conviction. There were lots of people who joined the Party for opportunism or even just to make their life easier (same as happened in the GDR with so many people joining the SED (Socialist Unity Party of Germany - the ruling party in the GDR). Being a party member just made your life easier, since you got preferential treatment in most instances.

c) Again, for most people it was simple opportunism. 2 examples from my personal experience here:
1. My dad never joined 'The Party'. In fact he was jailed for 3 years for an attempt to escape the country when he was 19 (that was in 1963 and we didn't find out about this until after his death in 1989 - the year the wall came down). Because he never joined the SED, he could only go so far in his job. His last position in the company he worked for (pharmaceutical distribution and logistics - they delivered medication and pharmaceuticals to doctors, pharmacies and hospitals) was 'dispatch manager' in a local distribution center. He basically determined the routes and time for each truck to deliver the days consignment. He couldn't advance any further up the ladder, because he was not a member of 'The Party'
2. My best friend in school. Both his parents were doctors (a GP and a dentist) but they were doctors for the Stasi ('State Security') and employed by the Stasi. They were 'loaded' - and not because they were doctors but because they were Stasi-doctors. They gave my mate a motorbike on his 16th birthday (an MZ ETZ 150) That was the latest and best motorbike available in the GDR and was available in 3 colours (red, blue and - the 'export-version' for extra money in silver) and there was a 4-year waiting period for this bike. My friends parents managed to get him this same bike in BLACK within 2 weeks of ordering it.

So, as I said above, everybody kinda tried to get an 'official' job, or join the party, or do whatever necessary to make their lives easier and more comfortable. Pretty much the same as it is these days, you just had to do different things there.

I don't know what the size limit is for posts here, so I'll post this now and then try to answer the other questions.

g) Germany (East or West) has always been and will always be a bureaucratic challenge. Germans (sorry, but I'll exclude myself from this statement, and if you doubt it, ask my girlfriend, lol) just love order! No 2 ways about it. As an example, I'm currently having problems getting a new passport. My current passport expires in March next year. Now if I was a citizen of any other country I could just go to my embassy and apply for a new one. My problem is that I didn't tell the authorities back home when I left the country (or that I intended to in the first place). This is something you're legally required to do in Germany. When you do that you will receive a 'Abmeldebescheinigung' (de-registration certificate or 'proof of de-registration').

Now in order to get my new passport issued by the embassy here in Dublin I'll have to present to them this 'Abmeldebescheinigung' which I don't have. So it looks like I'll have to go back to Germany to apply for my new passport, since I apparently never left the country, so I can't possibly get a passport here. Go figure!

f) Starting your own business was almost impossible. The state guaranteed every citizen a job (not necessarily the job you wanted, but you were guaranteed a job, nevertheless). The only kind of 'private' business that was really tolerated, were businesses they couldn't really nationalize (i.e. hair dressers, garages, butchers and the like). Most of those were forced into so-called PGH's (production co-operative of the trades) in order to ensure supplies etc. (since all these came from state-owned factories). Some very close to free businesses were butchers, bakers, blacksmiths etc. but even they were far from free enterprise. Since wages were basically all government-set and the same was true for prices, there wasn't much scope nor interest in private enterprises.

When I went to school, we had to do every subject until year 10 of school. No picking and choosing what I like - especially at a time when I don't know what I wanna do later in life - keeps all options open! (subjects were German language, literature, maths, geography, physics, chemistry, biology, arts, music, language - for me Russian, English and French, PE, History and political science)

Al those subjects (apart from 2, but more about that in a mo) were taught completely objectively - and how could they have done any other way? The only 2 exceptions were History, which was taught with heavy political bias once we hit the 20th century, and of course 'political science' which was all about how Karl Marx and Lenin were the greatest people ever.

In year 10 we got a choice to drop either arts or music and in year 11 we could drop either chemistry or biology. All else was still compulsory and we had to do exams in it.

However, we had to do all our tests and exams (even in 1990!) without calculators, computers or anything the like. We were given calculators by the school in 1987 (if memory serves me right) but as I said - we couldn't use them in tests and exams. And I still think it should be like that now - make the kids use their brains.

As far as indoctrination was concerned, we had a whole subject for it - Staatbuergerkunde (basically political science) - all about Marx, Engels and Lenin having it all worked out. Also History, once it hit 1871 and the birth of Germany it was all completely biased (as in 'it could only end up in the state of the GDR and the victory of communism in the long run' kinda thing). Though up to that point - and that's from the cavemen, via the roman empire, genghis khan, the french revolution and anything in between it was all completely objective and historically correct.

As far as teachers are concerned I never heard of any that were openly adverse to the system, but then I guess they would have just chosen to teach a subject where they wouldn't have to think about it either way.

Wow, I hope I answered at least most of your questions. I certainly tried and did so 'to the best of my knowledge'

Thanx for the questions though, and if you - or anyone else - got anymore, just shoot.

Little Alex wrote: »

Are there any known cases where former Stasi detainees - and I mean people who were imprisoned for reasons that would not be considered crimes nowadays - tracked down those who instigated their imprisonment and confronted them?

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but was rather busy lately and had to prioritize a bit. I personally don't know of any such cases, though I'm pretty sure it must have happened here and there - just by considering the numbers of people that were involved on both sides. There was an interesting article in the 'Spiegel' a couple of years ago:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,623008,00.html

Sorry I don't have any more info on this.

Little Alex wrote: »

Thanks simplybam!

No worries and thanks for the reply. I actually had posted something myself here in reply to what you said, but I deleted it afterwards because I didn't want to be hijacking your thread.

Thanks for the article that you linked to. It's just that I always wondered what would happen when a regime change suddenly happens and people who were in authority were suddenly no longer suitable are cast aside, fully powerless. If there would be people queuing up to settle old scores on more equal terms. I do remember, though, years ago reading about a former Stasi guy who was the last occupant in a block of flats in Magdeburg which was to be demolished and he refused to vacate. He was interviewed by the newspaper and they even printed his photo. He didn't seem to be in fear of reprisal, but then again he may well have worked for the Stasi, but for all we know he might have been in charge of ordering in office supplies and have made no enemies.

I understand you in that you found it difficult when you moved back to Germany. Not that the problem is Germany, the problem is actually you! Don't get me wrong, that's not criticism. I too lived abroad for several years and found it very difficult getting to grips with the way things work back home after experiencing it differently abroad.

Ich habe sogar eine Zeitlang in der Stadt mit den drei Os gelebt, obwohl sie schon zu der Zeit wieder auf Chemnitz umbenannt wurde.

That's a kind of joke and it had to be written in German. Just saying that I actually know the part of Germany that the OP comes from. I could offer my views on having lived there if anyone was interested.

Thanx for the comments (especially the Korl-Morx-Stodt - lol). Don't worry, I'm defo not afraid of any hijacking. I actually think that 2 opinions and 2 answers to certain questions will surely be even more appreciated by any interested posters, so please feel free to answer questions in this thread as well.

And I'm well aware that it was me who was the problem when I moved back there. Just wasn't used to the German ways any more - and I honestly think I'll ever get used to it again. That's why it is highly unlikely I will ever move back to Germany

Stovepipe wrote: »

Hi there
Your posts are very interesting. How did East Germans feel, in general, towards other Eastern European countries and the Russians? Was there a general sense of being seperated from the West Germans?

regards
Stovepipe

As far as I was concerned I didn't have any problems or issues with our Eastern neighbours. Far from it really, I went to Czechoslovakia fairly regularly - mainly to buy REALLY cheap booze and smokes (it was even cheaper there than in East Germany - and that's saying something!). Spend some great times there, including a few holidays. I found the Czech people to be very friendly towards us too. Had similar experiences in Poland. I guess it was really a case of 'we're all stuck in the same mess, so there's no point of us fighting each other'

It was a slightly different story with the Russians. I've never been to Russia myself, but I had a lot of contact with Russians living in my home town (mainly military personnel and their families) due to my being an officer applicant (see one of my previous posts in this thread). Nobody I knew really had any time for the Russians - after all they were still an occupational force in our country. Of course we were all taught that they were our friends and brothers, keeping us safe from the evil people of the capitalist world, but after all - we weren't that thick, lol.

The sense of separation from the West Germans I think was more prevalent in people who actually had relatives across the border, which I didn't. Another group of people who might have had strong feelings about this were the older one's who actually lived through the whole separation. I was born in 1971, so never really knew anything different and therefore it never really bothered me.

Hope that answers your questions.

andrew wrote: »

This is an awesome thread, thanks OP.
Some questions:

1. You said that you had planned to be in the Air Force; how did you feel when the wall fell and that plan was ruined? Were you OK with the complete uncertainty surrounding the future?

2. Have you, or has anyone you know, requested to see their Stasi file?

3. What was the extent of the black market in goods and services? Were people who sold things on the black market tolerated by the authorities?

4. What were your first impressions of the west when you finally got to go there?

5. Would you ever have considered trying to flee to the west somehow, had the wall not fallen?

6. Did your dad ever speak of his time in prison? What was that like?

That's all I think. ...For now

[Also, the word limit for posts is huge, you probably don't need to worry about going over]

Ok, I'll answer in order of your questions.

1. My plan of joining the air force was ruined just before all the demos, etc. happened. I was actually severely annoyed with the people in charge then, and here's why:

I always had a 'big thing' for flying since early childhood. At the age of about 12 I figured out that the only way to become a pilot in East Germany is to join the air force, since there was no civilian pilot training. All East German airline pilots (Interflug) were former air force pilots. So I joined the 'BOB collective' (literally translated to 'professional officer's applicant' collective) in order to be able to fly planes. Now I had meningitis when I was five and as a result of it I'm deaf on one ear. This was known to the officials from day one. They still accepted me (I guess they were hoping I'd take any job in the army despite my application being specifically to become a pilot) and my school (who knew about my obsession with planes and flying) was just too happy to go along, since they got extra brownie points for every pupil who signed up for the military. In 1988 I had to go to the air force test center for an assessment. I passed every test (including no less than 5 eye tests, a centrifuge, EKG, ECG and loads of others - this was a 5-day stint of medical and physical tests for 8 hours par day!). The only thing I failed were the hearing tests - funny that! So after 5 years of going along with all their rubbish the only thing they failed me on was something they knew all along. So, yeah, I was severely p***ed off.
So to me there was a complete and utter uncertainty then - a year before the wall came down. I never really was into the whole political thing they had going there - I just wanted to fly planes! In this respect all the changes that followed were to my advantage, since I didn't really have a fall back plan. When the wall came down I personally had a lot more possibilities.

2. I have never requested my Stasi file. I know for a fact that I have one (just because I wanted to be an officer in the NVA). But since I never had any problems, repercussions or the like, I didn't really see any reason why I should bother - there's quite a bit of bureaucracy involved, which I can't really be bothered to go through, considering it'll be something that will in no way affect my current or future life. And since I left the country shortly after unification, I don't really know personally any people who have done so.

3. The black market was thriving and a good place to get things if you either had LOADS of East German currency or ANY West German currency. If you had any (West German) DM you could get pretty much anything. If you had lots of East German currency you could easily exchange it at approx. 10:1 for DM (that was the going rate most of the time - give or take a bit) and the again buy pretty much anything for DM. As far as I remember, this whole black market was kinda frowned upon but never really discouraged.

4. Part of that is answered in my last post about my 'end of school' trip. Basically I was blown away by just the colours and the 24-hour mentality when I went to West Berlin in November 1989. Admittedly, the atmosphere was a one of a kind (giving the time and occasion). However, when I moved to the West (a small town called Kirn) in 1990 it was far from the same experience. Didn't really feel that different.

5. I never really considered fleeing to the West. I only finished school (equivalent to leaving cert here, methinks) in 1990. I'm pretty sure I would have tried something if the whole 'peaceful revolution' wouldn't have kicked off when it did (especially after I got kicked off the officers applicant collective - as mentioned above). They way and timeline of the events happening though did really work for me.

6. My dad never actually mentioned anything about the whole issue. My mum didn't find out about him ever having been in prison until after he died in '89. And even that was only by accident when he had to apply for certain forms in order to get her widow's pension. The officials had to sent her forms regarding her husbands employment history. Only then did she find out that the 3 years he officially spent in the army were actually spent in a prison for attempted flight from the state ('Republikflucht'). So, sorry, can't tell you anything about conditions there, etc.