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family members conversion causing difficulties

2

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  • #32
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Hi,

    Hobbes here. I am just butting on this post as it appears it is being directly linked somewhere and people are raging without reviewing the full thread.

    First up. The thread is locked. Discussion over, people can't talk in a civil manner, so its over. Reporting posts has no impact except to annoy me on something that admins/cmods/mods are already aware of.

    Two. the actual post below is horrible.. if you take it out of context, which is what a lot of people are actually doing. If you actually read Irish Converts take on the subject is here:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74125764&postcount=52

    If you are new to the forum, I also recommend reading the forum charter. It explains the purpose of the forum. If you have an issue with Islam, the forum isn't for you. But we have many other forums were you are free to discuss your feelings on the subject.

    [edit 2] Just to clarify. IrishConvert pointed out that in Islam they do have rules which allow you to hit your wife. You may not agree, which is perfectly acceptable (and IC doesn't appear to do it). But this in itself is not a banning offense.

    Also before people think if a non-Muslim said the same thing they would be banned, it was a non Muslim who first stated it in the thread.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73892022&postcount=13

    They were not banned/warning/reported for that post.

    - Hobbes.

    Original post

    dlofnep wrote: »
    If that was my assertion, then why did I append the following?

    Why didn't you just correct your original incorrect post? You are now refering to a post made a day later.
    dlofnep wrote: »

    I mentioned it because Islam permits for a man to hit his wife.

    Yes it does, under certain limited circumstances. It doesn't allow severe or regular beating of women. Women are allowed to divorce their husbands so if they are being abused then they can take this right.




    dlofnep wrote: »
    That is the whole verse. It asserts that women cannot be self-sufficient in wedlock.
    It does not. It sets out the obligations of a man and is addressed to men. It does not forbid women to work or be self-sufficient. And as I mentioned earlier, if a women does work and earns her money, it is hers alone. She does not have to share it with her husband of family, as a man does. The same rule applies for inheritance, she keeps her share for herself to spend however she wishes whereas a man must share his portion out to his wife and family.


  • #33
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Yes it does, under certain limited circumstances. It doesn't allow severe or regular beating of women.

    What do you consider valid circumstances for hitting your wife, and what do you consider not severe?

    P.


  • #34
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Yes it does, under certain limited circumstances.

    Well, at least you admit it's permitted to beat your wife in Islam. I rest my case.


  • #35
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    oceanclub wrote: »
    What do you consider valid circumstances for hitting your wife, and what do you consider not severe?

    P.
    What would you do when your daughter/wife dates with strange men? ---She breaks the dignity/honor of house--- The punishment doesn't apply to all women--- It has restriction under certain social context.... If you don't follow that context then you have pimps/prostitutes/sex selling/porn moives etc---- You will have broken families system--- You will have outdoor sex


  • #36
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Well, at least you admit it's permitted to beat your wife in Islam. I rest my case.
    You with your case may rest in peace for the moment but the dead women in your case may not rest ----


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  • #37
    Freiheit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭Freiheit


    Are you implying dead one that violence is the answer if a daughter dated someone you don't approve of?.


  • #38
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    dead one wrote: »
    You with your case may rest in peace for the moment but the dead women in your case may not rest ----

    That doesn't make sense whatsoever.


  • #39
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    dead one wrote: »
    What would you do when your daughter/wife dates with strange men? ---She breaks the dignity/honor of house--- The punishment doesn't apply to all women--- It has restriction under certain social context.... If you don't follow that context then you have pimps/prostitutes/sex selling/porn moives etc---- You will have broken families system--- You will have outdoor sex

    What do you consider a strange man?

    If she dates a strange man, how much violence/beating against her is warranted? Do you have an example of what type of beating should be administered?

    Also, do you think that if her father is beating her, and she perceives him as a violent abuser, it would push her to the man she's dating even more?

    P.


  • #40
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Freiheit wrote: »
    Are you implying dead one that violence is the answer if a daughter dated someone you don't approve of?.
    What violence? Do you have the same problem of understanding --- See, in islam, male is head of family, head of family doesn't mean, he is superior or inferior to any other member of family... He has greater responsibility in family affairs than any other member of family --- Now, as a head, it is his responsibility to do what is best for by following God's orders.....
    If any members of family breaks the rules of families or the limit which are given in the book of God then he/she is punishable for violating the message of God.....
    I tell you what is real violence that you may think. i aint attacking on your society which is standing on wishfulthinking but i giving you a time to think that you may understand... See, this pure violence on which your society is going to suicide....

    "In your/western society, today, kids do not get the tender loving care from their parents, and as a result the family system is destroyed . The husband and wife both work outside their home at different places. A free and uninhibited atmosphere prevails at both work places. So, at times the views and interests of the couple begin to diverge and the marriage undergoes a strain. Illegitimate extra marital liaisons begin to develop and the marriage breaks down. Divorce drives the final nail into the coffin. The home is destroyed!"


    The society allowed the family system to decline and disintegrate because it failed to realize the purpose of the creation of woman.... The women is being used as show piece in commercial... You are trading in the name of freedom..... Isn't it violence my comrade.....


  • #41
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    OP, there is no such thing as ''factual'' answers here, just because a muslim on this board doesn't expect his wife to be subservient to him, or to give up her career, or to shun her gay brother means absolutely nothing.

    The fact is, you're sister's BF might expect all of these things, or he may not. But imo, insisting that your sister convert, and this being non-negotiable, is not a very good start. What other things are non-negotiable? Will she be expected to adhere to prayer rituals, ramadan etc?

    I think she really needs to think long term here, this decision doesn't just effect her but also future children.

    EDIT: And one more thing OP, appearances can be deceiving. I'm in no way saying this man will physically abuse your sister, but since when do abusers of any kind look like or appear to be abusers?


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  • #42
    Bruce Square Bicyclist
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Bruce Square Bicyclist


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Why? Muslim men can marry christian women without either needing to convert.

    Roughly where is the husband-to-be from? Will your sister be expected to move back with him? Does she have a career at the moment and has he said anything about it?

    As for your reservations, well as I hope you can tell from the fairly varied responses you are getting, they are possible but not definite. Malaysian muslims are very different to Saudi muslims (almost as different as Irish christians and US bible belt christians), so you need to think about the background of the husband to be and where your sister will end up before you can decide on if its a good idea.

    Yes, if he is insisting on this it might be more worrisome because of him in particular and his background and expectations rather than just his religion.


  • #43
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    oceanclub wrote: »
    What do you consider a strange man?

    If she dates a strange man, how much violence/beating against her is warranted? Do you have an example of what type of beating should be administered?

    Also, do you think that if her father is beating her, and she perceives him as a violent abuser, it would push her to the man she's dating even more?

    P.
    first tell me, would you allow your daughter/wife to date with other men.... then i will give answer what you wrote above....


  • #44
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    dead one wrote: »
    first tell me, would you allow to your daugther/wife to date with other men.... then i will give answer what you wrote above....

    I'll ask the questions, thanks. I'll assume your refusal to answer means you don't want to publically reveal the level of violence you would administer to a woman.

    Perhaps Irishconvert could answer instead?

    P.


  • #45
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    oceanclub wrote: »
    I'll ask the questions, thanks. I'll assume your refusal to answer means you don't want to publically reveal the level of violence you would administer to a woman.

    Perhaps Irishconvert could answer instead?

    P.
    No, don't run for Christ's sake? Please tell, would you allow? then I will give you a very clear and a detailed answer?


  • #46
    Starokan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭Starokan


    cheers for all the replys people. some very interesting points and views here. Just as an update things have calmed down somewhat.

    My own view as I said back in the op is she should do what makes her happy and that has probably become the prevalent attitude.


    re the issues i mentioned originally her fiance is hapy for her to continue with her career but when kids arrive he told her he would prefer her to be a stay at home mother with them. She seems perfectly happy about this so no issue there.

    as for being subserviant she said its just not an issue with them and it never will be which is also good.

    She will be converting to islam if they get married for the simple reason that her fiance does not wish to be married to someone not of the same faith as him. He is very concerned that any children would be raised in his faith. He has asked her to take some time and examine islam as a religion and see if it is a path for her. He is putting her under no time pressure and is prepared to wait for her answer, he particularly wants her to understand what her children would be raised to believe.

    I guess the ultimatum is still there but in my opinion he is being upfront and honest as to his feelings and what more can you ask for.

    The real divisive issue has been her brother. This became a very contentious topic for them as he in line with his religion believes that homosexuality is wrong. Let me stress he is by no means rude to her brother , the opposite in fact but its a very very difficult one for her to get her head around as she loves her brother dearly and would never want him to feel excluded in any way

    I hope they resolve it all and get married as they are a great couple together and he treats her so well. Having said that I think it was exceptionally naive of them not to have these conversations far earlier in their relationship as a lot of this toing and froing could be avoided.

    Anyhows cheers for all the input , much appreciated , ill let you know how it turns out


  • #47
    Freiheit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭Freiheit


    Religion in general,responsible for so much prejudice and discrimination,for no reason other than ancient figures 'who said it was so'. Is it based on science? or new research ? no....just homophobic interpretations of an ancient text. Again there is schools of Islam who do accommodate lgbtq identities and for anyone in such a situation these should be explored.


  • #48
    Blonks
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭Blonks


    No offense but your sister seems a little ridiculous. How does one convert to Islam? Does one simply put on the Islam badge and wear the burka - I dont think so. Seeing that she was a non-practising Catholic, that would pretty much sum up her view of God - not really a believer but a you never know just-in-case kinda person. (I'm in I have the badge! -rubbish) Can she just switch on her belief switch and decide because of love that yes she now believes - I think not. This would make her conversion a hollow gesture and not much more than a cultural decision. Why would she not explore her own faith first seeing that we are talking about the same God in both religions and decide whether she actually does believe. Then the loss of her own religion might actually have some significance.

    As an aside ... Freiheit I cant believe you posted that turd.


  • #49
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Freiheit wrote: »
    Religion in general,responsible for so much prejudice and discrimination,for no reason other than ancient figures 'who said it was so'. Is it based on science? or new research ? no....just homophobic interpretations of an ancient text. Again there is schools of Islam who do accommodate lgbtq identities and for anyone in such a situation these should be explored.

    What a nonsense post. There is as much prejudice and discrimination among non-religious people as religious people. This is not the forum for general sweeping statements, if that is your thing than perhaps you would feel more at home posting in After Hours


  • #50
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    oceanclub wrote: »
    What do you consider valid circumstances for hitting your wife, and what do you consider not severe?

    P.

    I don't know, I haven't been in a situation where I felt it was appropriate. I stress that hitting a wife is to be regarded is a last resort.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Well, at least you admit it's permitted to beat your wife in Islam. I rest my case.

    I don't quite know what your case is when you are chopping and changing your opinions from post to post, then denying you said what is written in clear text for everyone to see.


  • #51
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    irishconvert wrote: »
    I don't know, I haven't been in a situation where I felt it was appropriate. I stress that hitting a wife is to be regarded is a last resort.

    Well, I'm curious what that last resort would be. And how much hitting is appropriate? Where would you hit her, for example?

    And what if she reported it to the police? Would you consider this a violation of your religious rights?

    P.


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  • #52
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    oceanclub wrote: »
    Well, I'm curious what that last resort would be. And how much hitting is appropriate? Where would you hit her, for example?

    And what if she reported it to the police? Would you consider this a violation of your religious rights?

    P.

    Look, to be honest I am not the type of person who goes around hitting anyone, my wife included. To get to the stage of hitting your wife, you first have to be in a position where you are so annoyed you are no longer sleeping in the same bed as her. My opinion is that if you are at this stage and you feel you have to hit your wife then you may as well call time on the marriage. Actually if I did hit my wife I think she would divorce me quicker than you can say sharia law!


  • #53
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    dead one wrote: »
    first tell me, would you allow your daughter/wife to date with other men.... then i will give answer what you wrote above....
    ALLOW your daughter to date other men? (I'm excluding 'wife' since if she is your wife, one would think that she isn't dating other guys...) - last time I checked, I didn't have to seek permission from my father on who to date. Unfortunately, Islam isn't so keen on allowing women the right to self determination.


  • #54
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Look, to be honest I am not the type of person who goes around hitting anyone, my wife included. To get to the stage of hitting your wife, you first have to be in a position where you are so annoyed you are no longer sleeping in the same bed as her. My opinion is that if you are at this stage and you feel you have to hit your wife then you may as well call time on the marriage. Actually if I did hit my wife I think she would divorce me quicker than you can say sharia law!

    And what if the tables are turned and you are the one annoying her? Oops, that's right- she can't make sanctions against you, and heaven forbid she lay a finger on you. It appears that only women can be classed as disobedient in Islam...


  • #55
    Freiheit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭Freiheit


    Posted by Irishconvert ****What a nonsense post. There is as much prejudice and discrimination among non-religious people as religious people. This is not the forum for general sweeping statements, if that is your thing than perhaps you would feel more at home posting in After Hours******
    Irishconvert I really question your temperament and thus suitability to moderate. Your manner is bellicose like and rather than engage in rational discussion all you do is make threats against members or ban them when you don't agree with what's said. You never discuss,just like you didn't above.

    Your response doesn't answer my post it merely attempts to deflect it. Of course there is homophobia amongst non-religous people but I'm hoping that that will change in line with new scientific discoveries. Your school of Islam is fixed and is not open to new knowledge.

    There is schools of thought in Islam which advocate that Islam should assimilate such new knowledge and adapt in accordance with new realities. If there is prejudice from others sources it doesn't excuse it from your or other schools of Islam.

    Incidentally if the man in question believes that a gay brother in law is simply wrong in his lifestyle,will he in time want his children to have interaction with someone whose lifestyle he believes to be wrong?. What if one of the children is gay or bisexual themselves?. What sort of person also expects someone to join a faith in which they themselves don't believe?.

    I'm taking a copy of this post in case it's deleted by the moderator who seeks to censor debate rather than engage with it.


  • #56
    Lady Chuckles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,279 ✭✭✭Lady Chuckles


    Jaafa wrote: »
    Have you met her prospective husband? Does he seem like the type who would abuse her in any way?

    I'm sorry, I just have to say something now...

    A few of you ask the OP if the husband-to-be seem abusive in any way, and the OP answers no.

    But how often can people (from the outside) spot someone who's abusive? In many cases the abuse is hidden and abusive people are sound and friendly outside of their home.

    I'm not saying the man is question is abusive or anything, I'm just saying no one can really tell.


  • #57
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Look, to be honest I am not the type of person who goes around hitting anyone, my wife included. To get to the stage of hitting your wife, you first have to be in a position where you are so annoyed you are no longer sleeping in the same bed as her. My opinion is that if you are at this stage and you feel you have to hit your wife then you may as well call time on the marriage. Actually if I did hit my wife I think she would divorce me quicker than you can say sharia law!

    Well if you think it's wrong - and if you think it's wrong, I'm not sure why you're defending that tenet of your religion - what do you think is acceptable in general then? We've seen one regular in the group defending this, including hitting his daughter for dating men he doesn't approve of (I presume that includes adult daughters). How much violence is it permissable to inflict? Also, what about when the laws of the land conflict with this?

    P.


  • #58
    carolmon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 616 ✭✭✭carolmon


    oceanclub wrote: »
    How much violence is it permissable to inflict? Also, what about when the laws of the land conflict with this?

    P.

    Exactly the point!
    No abuse should be excused in the name of culture or religion and no abuse should be deemed exempt from the rule of law on this basis.


  • #59
    Hobbes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    Hi,

    The lot of you should know by now..

    1. If you have an issue with Islam, this is not the forum for you to post in (unless you can follow the charter).

    2. You have an issue with a post you use the report post button.

    3. You attack the post and not the poster. (even if their views do not reflect your own)

    Please do not follow up in this thread regarding what I just mentioned. Thanks.

    [edit] Oh, btw Mods related to the issue reported are not allowed moderate on that issue. Nor do we delete/modify other peoples posts. If a post is deleted, the content is left intact for admin/cmods. So there is no censorship here.


  • #60
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    irishconvert wrote: »
    I don't quite know what your case is when you are chopping and changing your opinions from post to post, then denying you said what is written in clear text for everyone to see.

    I didn't deny stating anything, nor did I chop and change any of my opinions. You made a false accusation, which I pointed out to be false by quoting one of my posts I had posted PRIOR to your accusation, which clarified my original post.

    So spare me the melodrama.


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  • #61
    Hobbes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    - once she converts she will be expected to assume a subserviant role to her husband instead of an equal role
    - her brother who is gay feels that he will lose his relationship with his sister simply because there is no tolerance for homosexuals within islam
    -she will have to relinguish her career to focus on becoming a wife and mother

    Ignoring the rest but in response to those.

    1. Has been mentioned in depth on other posts here. The short answer is the woman is considered equal and has rights. It is not a one sided marriage.

    2. Can't answer this one. I guess it depends on the level of how far they take religion. In the same way many Christians don't have an issue with gays, but a Christian Evangelists will. You would be better to answer this from talking to them.

    3. For the most part this is BS. Again it depends on who they are marrying. Of Muslims I know personally in work, many are female and some are even management/execs, with children I might add.


This discussion has been closed.
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