family members conversion causing difficulties

#1 · 17-08-2011 07:59PM #1

Hi all. My cousin is converting to islam and its caused some rifts within our family. I am not familar with many aspects of islam so i thought id post this here and perhaps i could take some positive facts/messages back which might help everyone. If I use any wrong terminology here please forgive me as this is all new to me.

The story is my cousin is 28 , she is converting to islam (she was raised catholic but has not been practising for a number of years). By her own admission her primary reason for converting is to marry her boyfriend who is a practising muslim. If she does not convert they will not have a future.

I have found some of the families reactions to be way over the top but there are some genuine concerns here that i will list. Perhaps someone here can share some of their knowledge which will allow me to allay some of their concerns and make my cousins life a bit easier and happier.

The main concerns seem to be:

- once she converts she will be expected to assume a subserviant role to her husband instead of an equal role
- her brother who is gay feels that he will lose his relationship with his sister simply because there is no tolerance for homosexuals within islam
-she will have to relinguish her career to focus on becoming a wife and mother

Could anyone advise if these are genuine scenarios that may occur. Ive spoken with my cousin as we are good friends, she has assured me that none of the above will happen and her husband to be understands this.

I should stress that our family is pretty close and that these difficulties that have arisen is due to genuine concern for her rather than non willingness to embrace another religion. For my own part im of the opinion that if it makes her happy she should do it.

My own concern would be that she is converting purely to marry someone instead of having a genuine interest in being part of the faith she is about to embrace.

Any advice/comments would be much appreciated

dlofnep · 17-08-2011 08:12PM

Women are most certainly treated as subservient to men in Islam.

Qur'an 4:34: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard."

Intolerance towards homosexuality in Islam is also high. Many Islamic states proscribe from lengthy prison spells to the death penalty for those found guilty of homosexuality.

She should not have to convert for him. Your fears are well justified. My cousin recently moved back to Ireland from England. She was married to a Muslim, and he beat her routinely and treated her like an animal. She was expected to be subservient to his every need.

chicken fingers · 17-08-2011 08:58PM

The posters on here and the people who moderate the board will all tell you that your concerns are unfounded as obviously they have their agenda, which is fair enough.
examples might include:
She won't be subservient, she will just be respected.
She won't ever be pushed out of a career, she will have her own life and be able to make her own decisions.
She will of course be allowed to be acquainted with her homosexual brother.

But the reality of the situation will depend on how his family are.
Maybe it will be grand, maybe the extended family are the small % who are total carefree easygoing liberal muslims who can accept a foreigner recent "returnee" to Islam with a gay bro.

It also depends on what culture you are marrying into.

Are they hardcore or so called "moderates"?
How is the husband-to-be around her gay brother?
How are his family around the gay brother?
You probably won't hear what most true Muslims think about gays on this board.

How are his family around her?
TBH being coerced into converting is a bad sign and shows he respects his religion more than he respects her or her lack of one.
It shows a domineering attitude and a control, these things generally do not get better over time.
It shows that he is very serious about his faith and possibly that his family will not under any circumstances accept a non-muslim in their family.
If they are that serious, how do they feel about the gays and the women working or having independent lives?
etc etc.

dlofnep · 17-08-2011 09:17PM

chicken fingers wrote: »

TBH being coerced into converting is a bad sign and shows he respects his religion more than he respects her or her lack of one.
It shows a domineering attitude and a control, these things generally do not get better over time.

I totally agree. The fact that she is being forced to convert, just to suit him demonstrates that she is already seen as subservient.

charlemont · 17-08-2011 09:27PM

You should look into the customs regarding Relationships, Women and Raising of Children from the mans home country, Islam is practised differently in different regions.
I'm normally respectful towards Muslims as were I live contains plenty of them and I must say they are good people but Iv heard some horror stories regarding being married to them, Particularly involving Muslims from the sub continent.

Starokan · 18-08-2011 11:35AM

thanks for the replies guys

re his family i have met some of them and they are great with her, she has experienced no problems at all in that regard. The same goes for himself, he is a really sound guy and seems he is 100% genuine.

I find some of the comments here regarding subserviance to be a bit disturbing as i cant see her taking to well to that plus in my mind we are all equal.

Again thanks for the replies, much appreciated

pinkheels88 · 18-08-2011 04:51PM

Hi OP,

I'm a 23 year old female who is pretty much in the same situation as your female cousin at the moment. However, it's been said in this thread that she is being "forced" into conversion. I'm sure your cousin is a very intelligent woman and nobody with a degree of intelligence can be "forced" into accepting a religion and making such a major life decision. Surely, this is her own personal choice, and besides reverting to Islam for somebody else/to be with a Muslim is not really following the path. Choosing Islam is primarily about establishing your relationship with God, not with your partner.
I understand where your reservations are coming from, and sure, there are horror stories about Western women marrying Muslim men, but sadly for every abusive, domineering Muslim husband, there's a Christian/atheist/what have you equivalent. Religion isn't what motivates these violent men.
I have family members and friends who are worried about me at the moment. It's not that they're all close-minded, it's that they've been exposed to a certain stereotype. They haven't encountered Muslims in their life. Islam is an alien concept to them. I have been blessed in my life to have the opportunity to live and work in the Middle East, and I was struck by how genuine and kindhearted the Muslim people I have encountered have been, including my boyfriend. You said you've met some of her boyfriend's family? Perhaps you were struck by how friendly and warmhearted they were?
I wish you, and your cousin the best.
Salam

EvesBlogg · 18-08-2011 05:05PM

if she doesn't convert - they wont have a future?????????????????

As an irish woman i am sick hearing about these dumb ass fools giving up their beliefs. I have never heard of a muslim man converting to Catholicism so that he could marry his irish wife because if he didnt they wouldnt have a future. Catch them. Not in a million!!!!
Neither do you hear of these women having kids and calling them after their grandfather... Seamus, no its always mohammed or husain. Why? she has no voice thats why. her opinions on important things will not count..
good luck to her

chicken fingers · 18-08-2011 06:27PM

Look, the facts are that most of these women "reverting" to Islam are doing so for a fella not for god, no matter how many rituals you do, the fact of the matter is usually bad experiences dating men from original culture, you find muslim men are very into the white skin and very respectful and you think "this is it".
Maybe it is, but, probably, its not.

Pinkheels sounds like you are throwing yourself into your new religion and thats great.
But the profile of these women is always very similar, I won't go into it because I will be banned if I mention the personality traits they share.

Its fair enough, I suppose you done 6 months or a year in abu dhabi or dubai teaching english or something?
I'd also suppose the other half is not originally from the emirates.
Your family do have a right to be worried, but in most cases theres nothing that can be done, religions and cults are like that once you're in, its very difficult to get out.

Why not see if he really is "the one" and tell him he needs to convert to Christianity or renounce islam to be with you?
And maybe settle on a middle ground of "agree to differ" like normal equal adults?
(this does not happen, in the mind of a true Muslim, you are not their equal)

pinkheels88 · 18-08-2011 06:48PM

chicken fingers wrote: »

Why not see if he really is "the one" and tell him he needs to convert to Christianity or renounce islam to be with you?
And maybe settle on a middle ground of "agree to differ" like normal equal adults?
(this does not happen, in the mind of a true Muslim, you are not their equal)

I think you're missing my point a little... There's a difference between "converting" because of a man, and converting because you believe in Islam and you feel blessed to have discovered it. Why would I give my other half such an ultimatum? I know he'd pick Islam! I would too!

Jaafa · 18-08-2011 08:04PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Women are most certainly treated as subservient to men in Islam.

Intolerance towards homosexuality in Islam is also high. Many Islamic states proscribe from lengthy prison spells to the death penalty for those found guilty of homosexuality.

She should not have to convert for him. Your fears are well justified. My cousin recently moved back to Ireland from England. She was married to a Muslim, and he beat her routinely and treated her like an animal. She was expected to be subservient to his every need.

It seems like your cousin was just with the wrong guy. Do not for a second think wife beating is common place with Muslim men. You'll note there are men who aren't Muslim who beat their wives. It is not exclusive to Muslim men. The only difference is they use Islam as their excuse. And that's all it is a pathetic misinformed excuse. Men who are capable of beating their wives will find any reason to justify it to themselves. If it wasn't Islam it would be something else.

Also OP I don't not understand why she feels she must convert? A Muslim man can marry a christian women. Does she realise this?

Starokan · 18-08-2011 08:51PM

Jaafa wrote: »

It seems like your cousin was just with the wrong guy. Do not for a second think wife beating is common place with Muslim men. You'll note there are men who aren't Muslim who beat their wives. It is not exclusive to Muslim men. The only difference is they use Islam as their excuse. And that's all it is a pathetic misinformed excuse. Men who are capable of beating their wives will find any reason to justify it to themselves. If it wasn't Islam it would be something else.

Also OP I don't not understand why she feels she must convert? A Muslim man can marry a christian women. Does she realise this?

She feels she has to convert because her boyfriend has said it is a must if they are to continue the relationship. He is looking towards marriage and wishes his wife to be of the same faith as him. This is not open to negotiation for him.

Personally i respect his feelings , i do think however that he could have warned her earlier on in the relationship that this would be necessary on her behalf.

@ pinkheels . thanks for your input and yes i have to say the members of his family i have met have been extremely warm hearted and kind, no question about that they are lovely people. Your post was great to read but i think you are approaching it from the right side in that you are embracing a faith. My cousin on the other hand will be simply converting to stay with the man she loves, the religious side will mean nothing to her.

Could i ask your opinion as someone who is also in the process of possibly converting how you feel on some of the more controversial issues such as homosexuality. As i said in the op my cousins brother is gay, he is the one finding this most hard to deal with as he feels it is going to result in him being alienated from his sister. Are you facing any major decisions like this . (No need to answer if that's to personal for a public forum)

Personally I think she should do whatever makes her happy, thats my over riding belief , its her life and islam may be the perfect path for her, she wont know until she tries and having seen how well she gets on with her boyfriend i think its more than likely they will have a wonderful life together. If it doesnt work then like any relationship she will have to deal with whatever the fall out is.

It would however sadden me somewhat to see her enter a relationship where she is expected to be subserviant to someone else, i cant see that being healthy in any way. Likewise if her relationship with her brother suffers that too would be very sad indeed as he is a great chap and their closeness has always been a source of joy within our family.

dlofnep · 18-08-2011 08:59PM

Jaafa wrote: »

It seems like your cousin was just with the wrong guy. Do not for a second think wife beating is common place with Muslim men. You'll note there are men who aren't Muslim who beat their wives. It is not exclusive to Muslim men.

I never stated either way. However - Islam allows for a man to hit his wife. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Muslim men do not beat their wife.

Jaafa · 18-08-2011 09:58PM

dlofnep wrote: »

I never stated either way. However - Islam allows for a man to hit his wife. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Muslim men do not beat their wife.

What evidence do you have? I take it your referring to An-Nisaa 34-35?

Jaafa · 18-08-2011 10:02PM

Starokan wrote: »

She feels she has to convert because her boyfriend has said it is a must if they are to continue the relationship. He is looking towards marriage and wishes his wife to be of the same faith as him. This is not open to negotiation for him.

Personally i respect his feelings , i do think however that he could have warned her earlier on in the relationship that this would be necessary on her behalf.

@ pinkheels . thanks for your input and yes i have to say the members of his family i have met have been extremely warm hearted and kind, no question about that they are lovely people. Your post was great to read but i think you are approaching it from the right side in that you are embracing a faith. My cousin on the other hand will be simply converting to stay with the man she loves, the religious side will mean nothing to her.

Could i ask your opinion as someone who is also in the process of possibly converting how you feel on some of the more controversial issues such as homosexuality. As i said in the op my cousins brother is gay, he is the one finding this most hard to deal with as he feels it is going to result in him being alienated from his sister. Are you facing any major decisions like this . (No need to answer if that's to personal for a public forum)

Personally I think she should do whatever makes her happy, thats my over riding belief , its her life and islam may be the perfect path for her, she wont know until she tries and having seen how well she gets on with her boyfriend i think its more than likely they will have a wonderful life together. If it doesnt work then like any relationship she will have to deal with whatever the fall out is.

It would however sadden me somewhat to see her enter a relationship where she is expected to be subserviant to someone else, i cant see that being healthy in any way. Likewise if her relationship with her brother suffers that too would be very sad indeed as he is a great chap and their closeness has always been a source of joy within our family.

Have you met her prospective husband? Does he seem like the type who would abuse her in any way?

Starokan · 18-08-2011 10:12PM

Jaafa wrote: »

Have you met her prospective husband? Does he seem like the type who would abuse her in any way?

Yes I have and no i would not think he would abuse her at all . He comes across as a really sound decent guy.

Jaafa · 18-08-2011 11:53PM

Starokan wrote: »

Yes I have and no i would not think he would abuse her at all . He comes across as a really sound decent guy.

Then IMO you should have nothing to worry about. Don't see Islam as some sort of abusive trigger that will kick in once he's married.

As regards the gay brother, she doesn't necessarily have to shun him (I dont know what her husbands views will be) and there are some pro LGBT elements within Islam. Perhaps she could look into them.

Standman · 19-08-2011 05:40PM

OP, you say your cousin is converting to Islam solely because it is a condition her boyfriend has put on their marriage. This seems to me a bit of a risky way to go into a marriage with someone. I mean fair enough she doesn't see the value in the religion alone and is just converting so she can marry the man she loves, but this decision will have an affect on her whole life. What about when they have kids? Will she be ok with them being raised in a faith that she herself has no real belief in? I'd imagine it could be quite hard on the conscience to raise your own kids in a religion which you have no real belief in yourself.

whydoc · 20-08-2011 09:37AM

Jaafa wrote: »

What evidence do you have? I take it your referring to An-Nisaa 34-35?

For anyone trying to abuse this ayah, Just for education purpose :rolleyes::
http://falsehoodgo.webs.com/foryou.htm

irishconvert · 22-08-2011 08:06PM

Starokan wrote: »

Hi all. My cousin is converting to islam and its caused some rifts within our family. I am not familar with many aspects of islam so i thought id post this here and perhaps i could take some positive facts/messages back which might help everyone. If I use any wrong terminology here please forgive me as this is all new to me.

The story is my cousin is 28 , she is converting to islam (she was raised catholic but has not been practising for a number of years). By her own admission her primary reason for converting is to marry her boyfriend who is a practising muslim. If she does not convert they will not have a future.

I have found some of the families reactions to be way over the top but there are some genuine concerns here that i will list. Perhaps someone here can share some of their knowledge which will allow me to allay some of their concerns and make my cousins life a bit easier and happier.

The main concerns seem to be:

- once she converts she will be expected to assume a subserviant role to her husband instead of an equal role
- her brother who is gay feels that he will lose his relationship with his sister simply because there is no tolerance for homosexuals within islam
-she will have to relinguish her career to focus on becoming a wife and mother

Could anyone advise if these are genuine scenarios that may occur. Ive spoken with my cousin as we are good friends, she has assured me that none of the above will happen and her husband to be understands this.

I should stress that our family is pretty close and that these difficulties that have arisen is due to genuine concern for her rather than non willingness to embrace another religion. For my own part im of the opinion that if it makes her happy she should do it.

My own concern would be that she is converting purely to marry someone instead of having a genuine interest in being part of the faith she is about to embrace.

Any advice/comments would be much appreciated

Some very quick factual answers from my own experience as an Irish Convert (I am male) as no doubt you will read a lot of tosh from people who don't have any experience of Islam.

- once she converts she will be expected to assume a subserviant role to her husband instead of an equal role - Not at all, Ask my wife!!

- her brother who is gay feels that he will lose his relationship with his sister simply because there is no tolerance for homosexuals within islam - I seriously doubt she will lose her relationship with him as families are very important in Islam. However we believe the practise of homosexuality is wrong, so she may try to convince him of this which could cause friction. However it is really down to her personality.

-she will have to relinguish her career to focus on becoming a wife and mother - No way! My wife is working full time in a senior management role. Her sister minds our baby.

Any more questions, ask away, or PM me.

irishconvert · 22-08-2011 08:08PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Women are most certainly treated as subservient to men in Islam.

Intolerance towards homosexuality in Islam is also high. Many Islamic states proscribe from lengthy prison spells to the death penalty for those found guilty of homosexuality.

She should not have to convert for him. Your fears are well justified. My cousin recently moved back to Ireland from England. She was married to a Muslim, and he beat her routinely and treated her like an animal. She was expected to be subservient to his every need.

My Irish born neighbour beat his wife black and blue, neither were Muslim. Does that make all Irish wifebeaters?

Please keep your bigoted views away from this forum.

irishconvert · 22-08-2011 08:10PM

pinkheels88 wrote: »

Hi OP,

I'm a 23 year old female who is pretty much in the same situation as your female cousin at the moment. However, it's been said in this thread that she is being "forced" into conversion. I'm sure your cousin is a very intelligent woman and nobody with a degree of intelligence can be "forced" into accepting a religion and making such a major life decision. Surely, this is her own personal choice, and besides reverting to Islam for somebody else/to be with a Muslim is not really following the path. Choosing Islam is primarily about establishing your relationship with God, not with your partner.
I understand where your reservations are coming from, and sure, there are horror stories about Western women marrying Muslim men, but sadly for every abusive, domineering Muslim husband, there's a Christian/atheist/what have you equivalent. Religion isn't what motivates these violent men.
I have family members and friends who are worried about me at the moment. It's not that they're all close-minded, it's that they've been exposed to a certain stereotype. They haven't encountered Muslims in their life. Islam is an alien concept to them. I have been blessed in my life to have the opportunity to live and work in the Middle East, and I was struck by how genuine and kindhearted the Muslim people I have encountered have been, including my boyfriend. You said you've met some of her boyfriend's family? Perhaps you were struck by how friendly and warmhearted they were?
I wish you, and your cousin the best.
Salam

Excellent post sister, I couldn't have put it better myself. Wassalaam.

irishconvert · 22-08-2011 08:14PM

Starokan wrote: »

The story is my cousin is 28 , she is converting to islam (she was raised catholic but has not been practising for a number of years). By her own admission her primary reason for converting is to marry her boyfriend who is a practising muslim. If she does not convert they will not have a future.

One more point, she does not have to convert. A Muslim man is allowed to marry a Christian or Jew woman. This is her husband's insistance, not a rule of Islam.

Eriu79 · 22-08-2011 08:18PM

I do not believe anyone should convert to any religion for a man/woman I am an Atheist and would never dream of pretending to believe in God in order to pbe with a man. That being said her situation can not be assessed by any one person here without knowing her husband and his family I have met many muslims in many countries and as with any person from any religion you can not judge the person until you have been close to the situation.

Mark Hamill · 25-08-2011 12:35PM

Starokan wrote: »

The story is my cousin is 28 , she is converting to islam (she was raised catholic but has not been practising for a number of years). By her own admission her primary reason for converting is to marry her boyfriend who is a practising muslim. If she does not convert they will not have a future.

Why? Muslim men can marry christian women without either needing to convert.

Roughly where is the husband-to-be from? Will your sister be expected to move back with him? Does she have a career at the moment and has he said anything about it?

As for your reservations, well as I hope you can tell from the fairly varied responses you are getting, they are possible but not definite. Malaysian muslims are very different to Saudi muslims (almost as different as Irish christians and US bible belt christians), so you need to think about the background of the husband to be and where your sister will end up before you can decide on if its a good idea.

oceanclub · 28-08-2011 01:14PM

chicken fingers wrote: »

She won't be subservient, she will just be respected.

I'm not sure how one argues this in the context of a man demanding that a woman else give up her own cherished beliefs or else he will not marry her. One's beliefs are, essentially, part of one's unique identify. If he expect even her beliefs to be subservient to his, and does not respect them, then why would he not consider her subservient in every other way? If he respected her beliefs, why would he demand she give them (whether that includes _genuinely_ giving them up, or just pretending to in order to please him).

P.

dlofnep · 28-08-2011 01:19PM

irishconvert wrote: »

My Irish born neighbour beat his wife black and blue, neither were Muslim. Does that make all Irish wifebeaters?

So now the onus is on you to demonstrate where I stated that all Muslims were wife-beaters. In-fact, I actually stated:

I have no doubt that the vast majority of Muslim men do not beat their wife.

So how exactly did I state that all Muslims were wife-beaters?

irishconvert wrote: »

Please keep your bigoted views away from this forum.

My views aren't bigoted. Please learn to read before you accuse me of bigotry. The Qur'an teaches that women are inferior to men.

irishconvert · 28-08-2011 11:49PM

dlofnep wrote: »

So now the onus is on you to demonstrate where I stated that all Muslims were wife-beaters. In-fact, I actually stated:

...

So how exactly did I state that all Muslims were wife-beaters?

You said:

dlofnep wrote: »

Your fears are well justified. My cousin recently moved back to Ireland from England. She was married to a Muslim, and he beat her routinely and treated her like an animal. She was expected to be subservient to his every need.

Now you are giving an example of one case you know of where a Muslim man beat a woman and treated her like an animal. This is one case. So how is the OP's fears justified? From statement one can gather that you assume this one case is representitive of all Muslim men. If you disagree please clarify what you mean by this statement.

dlofnep wrote: »

My views aren't bigoted. Please learn to read before you accuse me of bigotry. The Qur'an teaches that women are inferior to men.

The Qur'an teaches that men and women are different and have different roles. It doesn't teach that either are inferior. Where do you get this view from? State the parts of the Qur'an you believe prove this.

dlofnep · 29-08-2011 12:24AM

irishconvert wrote: »

You said:

Now you are giving an example of one case you know of where a Muslim man beat a woman and treated her like an animal. This is one case. So how is the OP's fears justified? From statement one can gather that you assume this one case is representitive of all Muslim men. If you disagree please clarify what you mean by this statement.

I was referring to an intolerance to homosexuality within Islam. Her fears regarding the brother getting shunned were very much justified.

irishconvert wrote: »

The Qur'an teaches that men and women are different and have different roles. It doesn't teach that either are inferior. Where do you get this view from? State the parts of the Qur'an you believe prove this.

Verse 4:34 quite clearly confirms it.

irishconvert · 29-08-2011 12:43AM

dlofnep wrote: »

I was referring to an intolerance to homosexuality within Islam. Her fears regarding the brother getting shunned were very much justified.

Why then did you refer to a situation that had nothing to do with homosexuality but was about a Muslim man beating his wife? You were quite clearly refering to beating of women. You are being untruthful if you deny this and you know it.

dlofnep wrote: »

Verse 4:34 quite clearly confirms it.

It doesn't say women are inferior. It says

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means.

Men are obliged to support women, pay for them, give them a home, food, clothes and everything else that is necessary for living. We have to pay for this with our own earnings. A women does not have this obligation. Any money she has is hers, she does not have to spend a penny on her husband.

dlofnep · 29-08-2011 12:52AM

irishconvert wrote: »

Why then did you refer to a situation that had nothing to do with homosexuality but was about a Muslim man beating his wife? You were quite clearly refering to beating of women. You are being untruthful if you deny this and you know it.

If that was my assertion, then why did I append the following?

I have no doubt that the vast majority of Muslim men do not beat their wife.

I mentioned it because Islam permits for a man to hit his wife.

irishconvert wrote: »

It doesn't say women are inferior. It says

Men are obliged to support women, pay for them, give them a home, food, clothes and everything else that is necessary for living. We have to pay for this with our own earnings. A women does not have this obligation. Any money she has is hers, she does not have to spend a penny on her husband.

"Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

That is the whole verse. It asserts that women cannot be self-sufficient in wedlock. It also asserts that a man has the right to beat his wife.

family members conversion causing difficulties

Comments