''Islam is a religion of peace'' (debate)

everyday taxi · 28-08-2011 06:42PM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Correction: YOU MENTIONED ASIAN WOMEN. Pakistan is in Asia. How in the name of all that's good is it "sneaky" to say Pakistan is in Asia? This is getting ridiculous now.

.

I honestly have no idea. Now perhaps you could answer my questions a) what does a Muslim look like? and b) were you insinuating that the average Muslim woman is the opposite of all those traits you mentioned previously - beautiful, intelligent, educated etc?

And I'd like to add a third if you don't mind,

What did you mean when you said that Zeba Khan was "almost Western"?

She is Western. She is a US citizen.

I say pakistan, you came back with asian. you couldnt back up the argument by referring to pakistani's, cause it would have been false. Regards Z. Khan, the point is simple she is not representative of majority of muslim women. Majority of muslim women would not share her view, have her education etc. So considering they portrayed a speciman muslim woman AND STILL lost the debate says alot. Get over it and stop whinging.

deravarra · 28-08-2011 06:48PM

everyday taxi wrote: »

I say pakistan, you came back with asian. you couldnt back up the argument by referring to pakistani's, cause it would have been false. Regards Z. Khan, the point is simple she is not representative of majority of muslim women. Majority of muslim women would not share her view, have her education etc. So considering they portrayed a speciman muslim woman AND STILL lost the debate says alot. Get over it and stop whinging.

She is not representative of the majority of muslim women?

Oh lovely... please provide a link to a reputable site that shows us which studious work reveals such information

dlofnep · 28-08-2011 06:52PM

deravarra wrote: »

Here we go

With every right there is a responsibility - and with that responsibility to accept the consequences of any action you may undertake which offends others - even if it doesnt offend you.

Just what I thought - An apologist for fanatical Islam.

deravarra wrote: »

My question to you is: Why would anyone want to insult God and Muhammad ...?

I don't want to insult God and Muhammad. That would be silly. God doesn't exist. Muhammad did enough in his life-time to tarnish his own name without me doing it for him.

deravarra wrote: »

I'd love to see how you would be treated at the war memorial in washington should you start roaring and shouting obscenities about the brutality of the american regime in the vietnamese conflict - or decide to do the same at the senotaph in london, or the tomb of the unknown soldier in paris...

I would be protected in America by the first Amendment. Freedom of speech is protected in the US, even if the words being uttered are asinine.

deravarra wrote: »

Would I stand up for their right to be as beligerent and demeaning to the sensitivities of those who hold those places sacred and dear to them? Absolutely not! Would they deserve whatever action would befall them should they choose to express their "right" to insult? a big YES from me.

So you believe that if someone insults a fictional character, that they deserve whatever violent response they receive? So why the fcuk are you deflecting about the teachings of Islam - when you yourself do not believe in freedom of speech, and advocate vengeance to anyone who insults Islam?

deravarra wrote: »

Why would anyone want to insult? Do it, and you get what you deserve.

Did Theo van Gogh get what he deserved?

deravarra wrote: »

And I noticed that you strictly limited this to "islamic" countries ... how very typical of an islamophobe.

I'm not an Islamophobe - I find all religion equally irrational. You however, have shown your true colours.

deravarra · 28-08-2011 07:19PM

dlofnep wrote: »

deravarra wrote: »

Here we go

With every right there is a responsibility - and with that responsibility to accept the consequences of any action you may undertake which offends others - even if it doesnt offend you.

Just what I thought - An apologist for fanatical Islam.

deravarra wrote: »

My question to you is: Why would anyone want to insult God and Muhammad ...?

I don't want to insult God and Muhammad. That would be silly. God doesn't exist. Muhammad did enough in his life-time to tarnish his own name without me doing it for him.

deravarra wrote: »

I'd love to see how you would be treated at the war memorial in washington should you start roaring and shouting obscenities about the brutality of the american regime in the vietnamese conflict - or decide to do the same at the senotaph in london, or the tomb of the unknown soldier in paris...

I would be protected in America by the first Amendment. Freedom of speech is protected in the US, even if the words being uttered are asinine.

deravarra wrote: »

Would I stand up for their right to be as beligerent and demeaning to the sensitivities of those who hold those places sacred and dear to them? Absolutely not! Would they deserve whatever action would befall them should they choose to express their "right" to insult? a big YES from me.

So you believe that if someone insults a fictional character, that they deserve whatever violent response they receive? So why the fcuk are you deflecting about the teachings of Islam - when you yourself do not believe in freedom of speech, and advocate vengeance to anyone who insults Islam?

deravarra wrote: »

Why would anyone want to insult? Do it, and you get what you deserve.

Did Theo van Gogh get what he deserved?

deravarra wrote: »

And I noticed that you strictly limited this to "islamic" countries ... how very typical of an islamophobe.

I'm not an Islamophobe - I find all religion equally irrational. You however, have shown your true colours.

Uber BS ... An apologist for fanatical Islam.

If you spit in someones eye, you should be prepared to take the consequences and not scream and shout for protection.

I bet you're the kinda guy who would keep pushing and shoving someone, provoking them into a reaction, and then cry calling them violent.

Galvasean · 28-08-2011 07:40PM

deravarra wrote: »

And I noticed that you strictly limited this to "islamic" countries ...

*looks at thread title*

dlofnep · 28-08-2011 07:42PM

deravarra wrote: »

Uber BS ... An apologist for fanatical Islam.

Yes you are an apologist. You support their right to attack those who insult Islam, regardless of the consequences.

deravarra wrote: »

If you spit in someones eye, you should be prepared to take the consequences and not scream and shout for protection.

Spitting in someone's eye is a physical act. Criticising Islam is not. The fact that you agree with Islamic fanatics and their right to react violently to a few meagre words is quite telling of your character.

deravarra wrote: »

I bet you're the kinda guy who would keep pushing and shoving someone, provoking them into a reaction, and then cry calling them violent.

No, I'm not that 'kinda guy'. I'm the kinda guy that believes in the freedom of speech and freedom of expression. I don't go out of my way to insult anyone - But I'll be damned if someone threatens violence because their religion has been criticised.

liamw · 28-08-2011 08:12PM

deravarra wrote: »

This rubbish of having the right to insult is a load of tosh.

Why would anyone want to insult? Do it, and you get what you deserve. If anyone insulted me, my family or showed any disrespect to them, I would do the same. Of course, I would be nice first, and ask them to desist. If they chose to ignore the plea, then they shouldnt go crying foul.

It's not about having the right to insult, it's about protecting the right of free speech and showing that it will not be relinquished even under threats of violence.

Turtwig · 28-08-2011 08:19PM

deravarra wrote: »

My question to you is: Why would anyone want to insult God and Muhammad ...?

And my question to you is "Why is insulting God and Muhammad deemed an insult to those who believe in Him?

deravarra · 28-08-2011 09:22PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes you are an apologist. You support their right to attack those who insult Islam, regardless of the consequences.

Spitting in someone's eye is a physical act. Criticising Islam is not. The fact that you agree with Islamic fanatics and their right to react violently to a few meagre words is quite telling of your character.

No, I'm not that 'kinda guy'. I'm the kinda guy that believes in the freedom of speech and freedom of expression. I don't go out of my way to insult anyone - But I'll be damned if someone threatens violence because their religion has been criticised.

Eh no ..., no again, and totally off the point

"criticism" and "insulting" are two totally different things. You have shown you cannot distinguish between the two, so that makes your argument irrelevant.

I never defended or was an apologist for fanatical Islam. I dare you to show me where I did.

More idiocy!

deravarra · 28-08-2011 09:24PM

Malty_T wrote: »

And my question to you is "Why is insulting God and Muhammad deemed an insult to those who believe in Him?

Do you hold something dear to you - I mean anything in your life?

MagicMarker · 28-08-2011 09:27PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Did Theo van Gogh get what he deserved?

I wouldn't mind hearing the answer to this.

deravarra · 28-08-2011 09:28PM

liamw wrote: »

It's not about having the right to insult, it's about protecting the right of free speech and showing that it will not be relinquished even under threats of violence.

It shouldnt be about the right to insult ... free speech is free speech - and a critique would be more than welcome in my opinion. But as another poster here showed us, he doesnt know the difference between insulting and criticism.

If the intention is to offend, then perhaps you shouldnt say it at all.

Thinking before talking is well advised ... and not just in this context.

deravarra · 28-08-2011 09:29PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

I wouldn't mind hearing the answer to this.

No, he didnt... there was nothing islamic about his murder.

deravarra · 28-08-2011 09:32PM

Galvasean wrote: »

*looks at thread title*

perhaps you should look at the context of the response, then you would see why i asked the question.

blasphemy laws do not exist solely within islam....

MagicMarker · 28-08-2011 09:35PM

deravarra wrote: »

No, he didnt... there was nothing islamic about his murder.

Except that it was committed by a muslim to ''fulfill his duty as a muslim'' of course?

deravarra · 28-08-2011 09:38PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Except that it was committed by a muslim to ''fulfill his duty as a muslim'' of course?

:rolleyes: oh here we go yet again ...

if a guy farted in the middle of jerusalem, there would be some nutcase blaming muslims and islam for a jihad by chemical attack.

If it werent so serious, it would be funny - the attitude of some posters here.

As an Irish muslim, I find the general attitude towards muslims and islam rather repugnant and quite disturbing.

And do englighten us by what his duty as a muslim was? and who said this?

I'm "all ears"

MagicMarker · 28-08-2011 09:50PM

deravarra wrote: »

:rolleyes: oh here we go yet again ...

if a guy farted in the middle of jerusalem, there would be some nutcase blaming muslims and islam for a jihad by chemical attack.

If it werent so serious, it would be funny - the attitude of some posters here.

As an Irish muslim, I find the general attitude towards muslims and islam rather repugnant and quite disturbing.

And do englighten us by what his duty as a muslim was? and who said this?

I'm "all ears"

Eh, Mohammed Bouyeri said it, you know, the guy who murdered Theo Van Gogh?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article548102.ece

In a surprise declaration during his trial, Bouyeri said that he had acted in the name of Islam and felt no pain for Van Gogh’s family. After reciting Islamic prayers, he told the courtroom that if given the chance he would "do exactly the same thing".

"What moved me to do what I did was purely my faith," Bouyeri told the court. "I was motivated by the law that commands me to cut off the head of anyone who insults Allah and his prophet."

The Mad Hatter · 28-08-2011 09:52PM

In before No True Scotsman.

deravarra · 28-08-2011 09:56PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Eh, Mohammed Bouyeri said it, you know, the guy who murdered Theo Van Gogh?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article548102.ece

Ah I see ... and Fred Phelps will tell you that he and his followers act in the name of God while hurling insults towards those attending soldiers funerals.

I'll be looking forward to you castigating all christians for this

And tell me something ... since when is Mohammed Bouyeri an Islamic scholar, or an expert on Islamic law - who gave him the right to speak "in the name of islam"? And which islamic law or edict did he quote from?

deravarra · 28-08-2011 09:56PM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

In before No True Scotsman.

duh

dlofnep · 28-08-2011 10:03PM

deravarra wrote: »

Eh no ..., no again, and totally off the point

You did, and that's the end of it. You perpetuated the fanatical Islamic ideology of 'they got what they deserved', and you are completely opposed to freedom of speech.

deravarra wrote: »

"criticism" and "insulting" are two totally different things. You have shown you cannot distinguish between the two, so that makes your argument irrelevant.

Firstly - Followers of Islam can, and often to become offended by criticism. Secondly - my argument is very relevant. You just choose to not engage in it, because you don't actually have a reasoned basis for a debate. Especially considering you support irrational responses to the insulting of Islam.

deravarra wrote: »

I never defended or was an apologist for fanatical Islam. I dare you to show me where I did.

I believe many posters in this thread have already seen where I demonstrated that.

deravarra wrote: »

More idiocy!

I'm not the one calling for attacks against those who insult Islam. Who's really the one espousing idiocy?

dlofnep · 28-08-2011 10:06PM

deravarra wrote: »

No, he didnt... there was nothing islamic about his murder.

He was murdered by a muslim in the name of Islam, who felt insulted by his criticisms of Islam. Didn't you say earlier:

Would they deserve whatever action would befall them should they choose to express their "right" to insult? a big YES from me.

So stop with the nonsense. You have already demonstrated yourself to be a dangerous apologist for fanatics and their irrational reactions to criticism of their faith.

Turtwig · 28-08-2011 10:06PM

deravarra wrote: »

Do you hold something dear to you - I mean anything in your life?

Yep, I know though that if someone insulted her she would become more pissed off with me feeling the need to interfere and defend her, than she would with those who insult her.

Now can you answer my question?

deravarra · 28-08-2011 10:10PM

dlofnep wrote: »

You did, and that's the end of it.

Where's my free speech then?

dlofnep wrote: »

You perpetuated the fanatical Islamic ideology of 'they got what they deserved', and you are completely opposed to freedom of speech.

Utter BS lies and quite deceitful. I am very much in support of freedom of speech. However, I loathe and detest the very thought that someone can take this sacred right and decide to piss all over something which another holds dear and sacred to them - because they have a "right" to do so.

dlofnep wrote: »

Firstly - Followers of Islam can, and often to become offended by criticism.

One valid point. Hope you know the difference between criticism and an insult ... they are not one and the same.

dlofnep wrote: »

Secondly - my argument is very relevant. You just choose to not engage in it, because you don't actually have a reasoned basis for a debate. Especially considering you support irrational responses to the insulting of Islam.

Oh dear - a little comprehension problem

I do NOT support irrational responses to the insulting of Islam. Feel free to point out where YOU THINK I say that ...

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm not the one calling for attacks against those who insult Islam.

And who is?

deravarra · 28-08-2011 10:13PM

dlofnep wrote: »

He was murdered by a muslim in the name of Islam, who felt insulted by his criticisms of Islam.

That does not make it islamic.

Doctors in their abortion clinics in the us who were murdered by christian fundamentalists often inspired by the bible and doing these heinous crimes "in the name of christianity" ... does that make their action a christian one?

eh no.

But somehow - YOU are able to decide because a muslim does something "in the name of islam" ... it makes it "islamic" ...

Logical? no

dlofnep · 28-08-2011 10:15PM

deravarra wrote: »

Utter BS lies and quite deceitful. I am very much in support of freedom of speech. However, I loathe and detest the very thought that someone can take this sacred right and decide to piss all over something which another holds dear and sacred to them - because they have a "right" to do so.

Then you clearly don't understand what free speech is. That much is quite evident after reading this.

deravarra wrote: »

I do NOT support irrational responses to the insulting of Islam. Feel free to point out where YOU THINK I say that ...

Yes you did, right here:

deravarra wrote: »

Would they deserve whatever action would befall them should they choose to express their "right" to insult? a big YES from me.

You support whatever action would befall them for insulting Islam.

deravarra · 28-08-2011 10:19PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Then you clearly don't understand what free speech is. That much is quite evident after reading this.

You support whatever action would befall them for insulting Islam.

Eh no ... YOU yourself put the word Islam there - not me. I mentioned it in a general context.

I think you have major comprehension problems.

and I do understand what free speech is. I value it as a right - not to be pissed away with the "right" to insult someone. Apparently, you dont see it in the same light. Thats your problem not mine

deravarra · 28-08-2011 10:23PM

dlofnep - you've made a number of accusations against me and my character here. I'd like you to retract them all and apologize.

Maybe you think it ok to insult me with these accusations - your right to "free speech" - but I don't... and I'm sure you wouldnt like to be labelled with any accusation which you know to be untrue.

So do the honourable thing and withdraw the accusations

Galvasean · 28-08-2011 10:26PM

deravarra wrote: »

dlofnep - you've made a number of accusations against me and my character here. I'd like you to retract them all and apologize.

Maybe you think it ok to insult me with these accusations - your right to "free speech" - but I don't... and I'm sure you wouldnt like to be labelled with any accusation which you know to be untrue.

Wait, didn't you call him an Islamophobe? Tad bit hypocritical to demand an apology without offering one yourself.

deravarra · 28-08-2011 10:30PM

Galvasean wrote: »

Wait, didn't you call him an Islamophobe? Tad bit hypocritical to demand an apology without offering one yourself.

Not at all. He has an irrational fear of islam. Proof in point: reference to theo van gogh's murderer. Dlofnep reckons it was an islamic act because the murderer was a muslim, he did it "in the name of islam" because it insulted islam.

He, however called me a supporter of fanatical islamic violence. I never said anything of the sort. He put words into my responses which took them out of the context in which they were placed - in order to make it sound as if i was the fanatical islamist/supporter. That is the tactic of a tired argument.

''Islam is a religion of peace'' (debate)

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