Irish Rail - Handling of Complaints

FakeSheikh · 25-08-2011 01:09PM #1

Hey All,

I am currently having some issues regarding a complaint I made to Iarnrod Eireann and I'm wondering if anybody here has experienced similar issues or can provide advice.

To keep a long story short, I reserved a seat on the Dublin-Cork train about 6-weeks ago. I printed my ticket when I arrived at Heuston but when I attempted to board the train I was told by security that the train was full. I tried to explain that I had a seat reserved (this was 15 minutes before departure time) but they were having none of it. When I went to the information desk they told me to apply for a refund.

I contacted IE again this week to follow up on my refund request. The response I got said that their records show that my seat was unoccupied (?) and, since I didn't cancel my ticket before departure time, I am not entitled to a refund. I have responded to this email numerous times explaining my situation in more detail, but they have not responded.

Has anybody experienced similar issues before? Aside from calling Joe Duffy, what is the best means of escalating this issue? (On another note, is it standard policy for IE to overbook their trains? I really don't understand how the train could have been full).

highlydebased · 25-08-2011 05:30PM

Well, you can only reserve seats from so many carriages- the others are left for people with walk on tickets. Of course, carriages might have been entirely reserved by large groups? But anyway, in short, I'd say you should have been left on.

NedNew2 · 25-08-2011 09:37PM

This is typical pig headedness on behalf of Iarnrod Eireann. They're a law unto themselves. Its' fare paying customers are at their mercy.

Don't give up Op, in my opinion if this was a decent company you would be issued with an apology, a refund and a free ticket to compensate... but then again this is IE.

26-08-2011 10:05AM

Switch from email. Write letters, make phone calls, or show up in person. Email is too easy to ignore.

(Most complaints here about Irish Rail I always end up on Irish Rail's side, but this is seriously ridiculous situation, very unfair on you. I wish you all the best)

Cuddlesworth · 26-08-2011 11:49AM

If you paid by credit card, initiate a charge back using the details provided above.

FakeSheikh · 26-08-2011 07:17PM

Thanks for the responses everyone. I finally received an email response from IrishRail last night. They have said that due to the high demand for seats on the train (i.e. it was overbooked) they invoked the "20 minute rule". Now, this sounds reasonable in principle, except:

From my own past experience, it is usually not possible to board the train 20 minutes before departure, because the gates are still locked.
What would happen to the reserved seat in the hypothetical case of someone who was boarding at an intermediate station?

As a gesture of goodwill they offered me a 20 Euro voucher (my ticket cost over twice that amount). Obviously I'm not going to accept this and will pursue further (by postal mail and phone, if necessary, thanks for the suggestion).

Regarding the charge-back, how feasible is this in practice? Does anybody have any experience of requesting these?

Shelflife · 26-08-2011 07:54PM

This sounds like total and utter bulls@#*t What's the point of reserving and booking a seat if they then refuse you entry.
How did they know that your seat was unused?
Why did they continue to oversell tickets to a train that was full ? Did their records not show this?
I would esculate this and look for costs that you incurred as a result of their incompetence.
If they bothered to sort out what was clearly a cock up on their part you wouldn't mind.
Unfortunately it makes no difference to them whether or not you travel with IR again or not.

mistermister · 26-08-2011 07:59PM

Small claims court

Losty Dublin · 27-08-2011 01:37AM

FakeSheikh wrote: »

Thanks for the responses everyone. I finally received an email response from IrishRail last night. They have said that due to the high demand for seats on the train (i.e. it was overbooked) they invoked the "20 minute rule". Now, this sounds reasonable in principle, except:
From my own past experience, it is usually not possible to board the train 20 minutes before departure, because the gates are still locked.

What would happen to the reserved seat in the hypothetical case of someone who was boarding at an intermediate station?

As a gesture of goodwill they offered me a 20 Euro voucher (my ticket cost over twice that amount). Obviously I'm not going to accept this and will pursue further (by postal mail and phone, if necessary, thanks for the suggestion).

Regarding the charge-back, how feasible is this in practice? Does anybody have any experience of requesting these?

They do request any online booking passengers to take their seats no later than 20 minutes before departure. While it is in the T+C, the question you need to ask now is if it's included in the confirmation emails you'd have gotten upon booking your ticket; if so then you don't have much grounds here as it was flagged to you in advance. If not I'd suggest you reply pointing same out and asking them to reconsider. I know gate opening times can and do chance from time to time but it's apparent that they were open in this case so it's not the wisest point to raise in this case

In relation to a seat booked after Cork, it's either kept empty or else it's vacated from the station it's needed from if somebody is in it; either way it's for that passenger use for their relevant stations en route.

Carawaystick · 27-08-2011 02:24AM

Air France allow check in for an international flight where they have tp xray your hold and cabin baggage up to 20 mins before a flight

Expecting the same for a train is (obviously) boll0cks

TGV's and high speed Italian trains don't announce their platforms until 10 or 15 mins before departure from termini

Just ring your credit card co and say IE didn't let you travel. If IE let you collect the ticket <20 minutes pre departure and you went directly to the platform, it'd be hard to see IE's case, and is probably an unfair consumer term.
If your credit card co charges back it'll probably cost IE about a hundred euros or so

FakeSheikh · 27-08-2011 01:13PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They do request any online booking passengers to take their seats no later than 20 minutes before departure. While it is in the T+C, the question you need to ask now is if it's included in the confirmation emails you'd have gotten upon booking your ticket; if so then you don't have much grounds here as it was flagged to you in advance. If not I'd suggest you reply pointing same out and asking them to reconsider.

I have double-checked the confirmation email and the T+Cs. It says "Please take your seat 20 minutes prior to departure", but that is all. It does not state that they will give away your seat if you are not there, nor does it state your are not entitled to a refund in such a case. This omission, as well as the fact that the attendant at the information desk informed me that I was entitled to a refund, would suggest to me that my request is valid. What do you think?

I have replied to them rejecting their voucher offer, so if I don't get a satisfactory response sometime next week I will probably initiate a charge-back.

Thanks again everyone!

Victor · 27-08-2011 02:38PM

Question: (a) Did you get to travel? (b) If you did get to travel, were you put at an inconvenience, e.g. you couldn't sit with your friends, you missed a connection / lift or had to pay for a taxi because you were late.

In case (a) a partial refund, while on the face of it is reasonable, is less than what you are entitled to. In case (b) I would be looking for more money.

FakeSheikh wrote: »

I was told by security that the train was full.

Unacceptable. Indeed, there is no standard for "full" and in cases of overcrowding they are usually keen to emphasise that. It is therefore interesting as to how they can make that statement.

I tried to explain that I had a seat reserved (this was 15 minutes before departure time) but they were having none of it. When I went to the information desk they told me to apply for a refund.

In future cases, perhaps getting the information desk to endore the ticket as "full refund due to seat occupied / train full".

The response I got said that their records show that my seat was unoccupied (?)

I honestly doubt that. While train hosts sometimes do print of the passenger manifest, I have never seen it cross-checked with actual occupancy. At what point in the journey was the manifest checked? And if security said the train was full, who is lying Irish Rail security or Irish Rail records / customer service.

since I didn't cancel my ticket before departure time, I am not entitled to a refund.

You are entitled to a full refund if they didn't provide you with your seat.

On another note, is it standard policy for IE to overbook their trains?

as there is assigned seating, and only in part of the train, I can't see how that is possible. However, it is possible that there was a large number of people with walk-on tickets.

FakeSheikh · 29-08-2011 06:29PM

Hey all, just to give a quick update. I have received another email from IrishRail and they're still not budging.

At this stage it looks like I'll have to try getting a charge-back on my credit card. I'll let you know how it goes.

goingnowhere · 29-08-2011 06:51PM

You got 60 days for the date of transaction to file a chargeback request, so probably too late by now

Its not automatic, the vendor can challenge the request and if they can prove the sale was valid and correctly handled you lose.

Is there a legally enforceable condition in the contract of sale?

https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/ConditionsOfTravel.pdf

Passengers at terminal stations who wish to claim their reserved seats must be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised departure time of the train.

Seems the exact same as showing up late at the checkin desk at Dublin Airport, no real recourse. Not fair clearly, but you clicked the accept T&C's before paying.

foggy_lad · 29-08-2011 07:54PM

goingnowhere wrote: »

You got 60 days for the date of transaction to file a chargeback request, so probably too late by now

Its not automatic, the vendor can challenge the request and if they can prove the sale was valid and correctly handled you lose.

Is there a legally enforceable condition in the contract of sale?

https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/ConditionsOfTravel.pdf

Seems the exact same as showing up late at the checkin desk at Dublin Airport, no real recourse. Not fair clearly, but you clicked the accept T&C's before paying.

Would this not be seen as an unfair condition as it does not apply universally to everyone who has booked seats and only seems to apply when IR need it to prevent customers getting refunds?

Surely anyone with a reservation who is not available for boarding 20 minutes before should lose their reservations and also the right to claim refunds if prevent from travelling by security guards.

FakeSheikh · 29-08-2011 08:46PM

goingnowhere wrote: »

You got 60 days for the date of transaction to file a chargeback request, so probably too late by now.

Are you sure about this? I thought I saw somewhere online that the deadline was 6 months for a chargeback? Either way, I better get in gear.

Regarding their T&Cs, when I read it (maybe I'm missing something), they don't specifically say that they can give away your seat and not provide a refund if you are not in your seat 20 minutes prior to departure. So how enforceable is this policy?

In my own opinion, I think I definitely have a genuine claim, and it is ridiculous that they are holding out (especially since I was initially assured that I was entitled to a refund). I just need to find some way of structuring my case so that the credit card company will agree.

FakeSheikh · 15-09-2011 09:52PM

Well lads, just to update ye on this. It took a long time but IrishRail have finally refunded my ticket in full. It was the threat of a chargeback that clinched it for me in the end.

Thanks for all the helpful advice lads, especially whoever it was that initially suggested the chargeback (sorry, too lazy to scroll back and find your name). I'll never complain about the €2 credit card surcharge ever again!

Declan O · 26-03-2012 03:41PM

My god, Irish Rail must be run by criminals!!! 1) bought a ticket at the station for 2 people for €155 (!) euro to Dublin, had no idea it would be cheaper online. 2) Had to go back few weeks later, bought 2 tickets online for € 42 due to a bank holiday had to change my ticket for a week later. Could NOT change the tickets, they charged me 20% and then I had to CANCEL my tickets and buy new ones. Bought them online again but now I had to pay €88 for 2 tickets. Why do the prices change! It's a bloody outrage!! 3) Just got back from Dublin but took a train 1 hour earlier!!!! Guess what I had to pay an extra €40 because I travelled an hour earlier!!! These people are fecking insane to charge this much for a ticket. I paid €88 for 2 tickets + €40 because of an earlier train....IRISH RAIL ARE FECKED UP!!! I will NEVER take a train in this bloody country again!!! I have and will again complain, but they don't care. I still did not receive my refund! So your better of taking your car!!

schemingbohemia · 26-03-2012 04:14PM

1 - Learn to spell
2 - Learn to write complete sentences in a format that people can read them in
3 - Be amazed at the fact that online prices do change for transport options
4 - Be amazed that prices online can be cheaper than in store
5 - Be prepared and know when you're actually travelling rather than when you think you might be travelling

highnc · 26-03-2012 05:06PM

Declan O wrote: »

So your better of taking your car!!

no, you're better off booking online!! works for me anyway.

Victor · 26-03-2012 09:09PM

Declan O wrote: »

My god, Irish Rail must be run by criminals!!!

No need for comments like this. I understand you are unhappy, but this would appear to be based on you not doing your research nor reading what you were given.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

1 - Learn to spell
2 - Learn to write complete sentences in a format that people can read them in

Behave.

Hilly Bill · 27-03-2012 01:41AM

Declan O wrote: »

My god, Irish Rail must be run by criminals!!! 1) bought a ticket at the station for 2 people for €155 (!) euro to Dublin, had no idea it would be cheaper online. 2) Had to go back few weeks later, bought 2 tickets online for € 42 due to a bank holiday had to change my ticket for a week later. Could NOT change the tickets, they charged me 20% and then I had to CANCEL my tickets and buy new ones. Bought them online again but now I had to pay €88 for 2 tickets. Why do the prices change! It's a bloody outrage!! 3) Just got back from Dublin but took a train 1 hour earlier!!!! Guess what I had to pay an extra €40 because I travelled an hour earlier!!! These people are fecking insane to charge this much for a ticket. I paid €88 for 2 tickets + €40 because of an earlier train....IRISH RAIL ARE FECKED UP!!! I will NEVER take a train in this bloody country again!!! I have and will again complain, but they don't care. I still did not receive my refund! So your better of taking your car!!

Thats some accusation. It was you that decided to take an earlier train so thats your fault.

Victor · 27-03-2012 04:21PM

Declan O wrote: »

1) bought a ticket at the station for 2 people for €155 (!) euro to Dublin,

Cork-Dublin is listed as €77 open return here: http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=118&n=197&a=266 I'm sure you can get the same information at stations and by telephone. Depending on the journey and your circumstances, other fares are available.

had no idea it would be cheaper online.

In fairness they do advertise (on-line, print, billboards, TV) that cheap on-line fares are available.

2) Had to go back few weeks later, bought 2 tickets online for € 42

Well done. You got them for a quarter of the usual price. This brings some restrictions.

due to a bank holiday had to change my ticket for a week later. Could NOT change the tickets, they charged me 20% and then I had to CANCEL my tickets and buy new ones.

This is in line with the term and conditions that you agreed to when you bought the discounted tickets.

Bought them online again but now I had to pay €88 for 2 tickets. Why do the prices change!

This is no different to bus companies, airlines and theatres. The closer to the date of travel that you buy, typically the more expensive that tickets are.

3) Just got back from Dublin but took a train 1 hour earlier!!!! Guess what I had to pay an extra €40 because I travelled an hour earlier!!!

This is in line with the term and conditions that you agreed to when you bought the discounted tickets. You booked one train and travelled on another.

These people are fecking insane to charge this much for a ticket. I paid €88 for 2 tickets + €40 because of an earlier train....IRISH RAIL ARE FECKED UP!!! I will NEVER take a train in this bloody country again!!! I have and will again complain, but they don't care. I still did not receive my refund! So your better of taking your car!!

Not necessarily. You will first need a car and all that comes with it. You will then have to drive a round trip of 530km, which not everyone is willing or able to do. In Dublin, you might have to spend €20-30 a day on parking and have to move the car several times during the day.

jack and jill · 13-06-2014 09:46AM

Hello Everyone, my wife and I traveled on the Westport to Dublin train last month. I am seventy three years old. We chose two seats which were not indicated as being reserved. At a station up the line a lady approached and informed us that she had a reservation for my seat. I somewhat reluctantly (admittedly) gave up my seat and had to look elsewhere on an already crowded train. I reported the matter to the ticket collector who said he would inform a train official who was seated elsewhere. Nobody came to investigate the incident. Returning from Houston at 18.15 we were positioned for the Westport train 45 mins before departure. Again we looked for unreserved seats. We were sitting in those for about ten minutes when the 'seat reserved' sign came on. For the second time that day I had to again look for a vacant seat. The reserved seat was not taken but a lady sat in it and said she would 'vacate it if anyone came along'. I have written twice to EI to complain but so far have got no reply. So much for their Charter of Rights. Surely people should not be treated like this. Any suggestions?

Losty Dublin · 13-06-2014 10:53AM

jack and jill wrote: »

Hello Everyone, my wife and I traveled on the Westport to Dublin train last month. I am seventy three years old. We chose two seats which were not indicated as being reserved. At a station up the line a lady approached and informed us that she had a reservation for my seat. I somewhat reluctantly (admittedly) gave up my seat and had to look elsewhere on an already crowded train. I reported the matter to the ticket collector who said he would inform a train official who was seated elsewhere. Nobody came to investigate the incident. Returning from Houston at 18.15 we were positioned for the Westport train 45 mins before departure. Again we looked for unreserved seats. We were sitting in those for about ten minutes when the 'seat reserved' sign came on. For the second time that day I had to again look for a vacant seat. The reserved seat was not taken but a lady sat in it and said she would 'vacate it if anyone came along'. I have written twice to EI to complain but so far have got no reply. So much for their Charter of Rights. Surely people should not be treated like this. Any suggestions?

Reserving your seats on your next trip would be one way out of this; Irish rail offer this facility online for those who travel on free passes. Other than than there isn't a lot you can do if seats are reserved.

Shelflife · 13-06-2014 12:27PM

The problem Losty is that in the first instance there was no indication that the seats were reserved, so until the passanger came along with their ticket indicating the had reserved the seat the Op had no clue that they were reserved.

I travelled last month on the same line and had reserved my seats, on both legs of the journey there was no indication that the seats were reserved by us.

I tweeted Irish rail about it but heard nothing back.

Losty Dublin · 13-06-2014 02:50PM

Shelflife wrote: »

The problem Losty is that in the first instance there was no indication that the seats were reserved, so until the passanger came along with their ticket indicating the had reserved the seat the Op had no clue that they were reserved.

I travelled last month on the same line and had reserved my seats, on both legs of the journey there was no indication that the seats were reserved by us.

I tweeted Irish rail about it but heard nothing back.

I understand that, hence suggesting reserving seats on board the train. While you may run the risk of somebody else sitting in them, you will have the booking for same in event of dispute.

Hilly Bill · 13-06-2014 09:40PM

jack and jill wrote: »

Hello Everyone, my wife and I traveled on the Westport to Dublin train last month. I am seventy three years old. We chose two seats which were not indicated as being reserved. At a station up the line a lady approached and informed us that she had a reservation for my seat. I somewhat reluctantly (admittedly) gave up my seat and had to look elsewhere on an already crowded train. I reported the matter to the ticket collector who said he would inform a train official who was seated elsewhere. Nobody came to investigate the incident. Returning from Houston at 18.15 we were positioned for the Westport train 45 mins before departure. Again we looked for unreserved seats. We were sitting in those for about ten minutes when the 'seat reserved' sign came on. For the second time that day I had to again look for a vacant seat. The reserved seat was not taken but a lady sat in it and said she would 'vacate it if anyone came along'. I have written twice to EI to complain but so far have got no reply. So much for their Charter of Rights. Surely people should not be treated like this. Any suggestions?

Treated like what?

robertxxx · 13-06-2014 09:42PM

Shower of **** bags,
The sooner it's privatised the better for the public.

Banjoxed · 13-06-2014 09:52PM

robertxxx wrote: »

Shower of **** bags,
The sooner it's privatised the better for the public.

Two versions of public transport elsewhere in these islands:

1. Translink: fully publically owned with relatively integrated road, rail and city bus services. Cheap as chips to travel on and very reliable.

2. Great Britain's completely disaggregated bus and rail services, friggin expensive and with only the rail tracks themselves in public ownership.

Mm, yes. What a hard choice that is.

VWD8 · 13-06-2014 10:56PM

Sorry but you are being allowed to travel for Free. IE have to give priority to fare paying passengers in the interests of fairness.The fare paying passengers are also helping to subsidise your free travel.

Irish Rail - Handling of Complaints

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