The EU and European identity

grenache · 26-08-2011 02:50AM

Stinicker wrote: »

We are white Europeans of a liberal Christian heritage, we share similar beliefs and values, however whilst we share the same things we are closer to Australians, Yanks and Canuks and dare I say the Brits, because of our speaking of the English language. I may think similarly to Fritz in Munich or Carlos in Spain yet however I am much closer to Cledus in Oklahoma or Alf Stewart in Home & Away because of our language and our culture and identity is based around this due to being able to communicate with each other. France may aswell be in Antarctica due to this reason.

A common language just means we can communicate easier with other Anglophone countries. It doesn't necessarily mean we are more similar to them however. For instance, you say we share more in common with the average man from Oklahoma than we do with the French - we're a relatively Catholic country, just like France. We like our rugby, just like France. We are mainly liberal in our outlook, again, just like our Gallic neighbours.

Oklahoma is none of those.

OPENROAD · 26-08-2011 02:51AM

Stinicker wrote: »

We are white Europeans of a liberal Christian heritage, we share similar beliefs and values, however whilst we share the same things we are closer to Australians, Yanks and Canuks and dare I say the Brits, because of our speaking of the English language. I may think similarly to Fritz in Munich or Carlos in Spain yet however I am much closer to Cledus in Oklahoma or Alf Stewart in Home & Away because of our language and our culture and identity is based around this due to being able to communicate with each other. France may aswell be in Antarctica due to this reason.

pawrick · 26-08-2011 02:53AM

I am Irish, Ireland is in Europe just like Britain is and therefore part of Europe.

Identity...we have had a shared history, sometimes we have been closer to our neighbors sometime less so. There is a European identity but I don't find it to be as strong as national identity. Liking the EU or not doesn't affect this too much as our shared history goes back a lot further then that + not all Europeans are part of the EU but would consider themselves very much European.

grenache · 26-08-2011 02:57AM

Kojak wrote: »

I don't see myself as European, I never have and never will. I am irish and nothing will change that. The EEC was initially set up for trading between Germany and France - it was not designed for a United States of Eurpoe.

But you need to distinguish between Europe, the continent, and the European Union, the political block. The island of Ireland is geographically part of Europe. Therefore by de facto you are a European, whether you want to be one or not. I think what you're trying to say is you don't wish to be referred to as a citizen of the EU.

PseudoFamous · 26-08-2011 02:59AM

While I see myself as Irish, I'm just as much Danish, and twice as much European than either. I speak five languages to a decent degree, and have European friends scattered across the continent (who all speak English fluently). I think that we're all European here, regardless of ethnicity, and I don't understand why some people see it as taboo in Ireland.

Kojak · 26-08-2011 03:05AM

grenache wrote: »

But you need to distinguish between Europe, the continent, and the European Union, the political block. The island of Ireland is geographically part of Europe. Therefore by de facto you are a European, whether you want to be one or not. I think what you're trying to say is you don't wish to be referred to as a citizen of the EU.

Correct, Ireland may be geographically in Europe, and thus I and everyone else would be an inhabitant of the european continent, but I'd never see myself as a citizen of the EU.

If you met someone from the US or Australia (for example) would you say I am from Europe - no you wouldn't, you'd say I'm from Ireland.

charlemont · 26-08-2011 03:08AM

PseudoFamous wrote: »

While I see myself as Irish, I'm just as much Danish, and twice as much European than either. I speak five languages to a decent degree, and have European friends scattered across the continent (who all speak English fluently). I think that we're all European here, regardless of ethnicity, and I don't understand why some people see it as taboo in Ireland.

Siege mentality, And the rubbish blaming Europe for what the mistakes of the government they themselves voted in.

grenache · 26-08-2011 03:28AM

Kojak wrote: »

If you met someone from the US or Australia (for example) would you say I am from Europe - no you wouldn't, you'd say I'm from Ireland.

well naturally you would say Ireland, as Europe is not a country. And for the main part we choose to define ourselves by our nationality. Just as a Canadian would say he/she is from Canada and not North America. But that doesn't mean he/she isn't North American by default. Just like we are European for the same reason.

later12 · 26-08-2011 05:44AM

I love how some people think they're being all progressive and sh1t by moving away from Irishness toward a European identity. Take a reality check, the concept of Europe as the motherland is just as dumb, just as segregationist (in fact more dangerously so, because of the size of the union and its overall largely white racial profile) and the idea of being pro European is as daft as being pro Irish or pro British or pro penguin.

Being Irish doesn't help define me. Being European doesn't help define me. These are silly, outdated nationalist and manmade constructs; relics of history and nothing more. We live in a globalised world, not a European world and not an Irish world.

I am in favour of stronger European monetary and fiscal integration, but that's where it ends. I don't want to see myself as 'European' any more than I want to see myself as Irish or British or French or right handed or white, or whatever other random label one might come up with.

Being Irish is an accident of birth. Being European is an accident of birth. These things are not identities to aspire to nor be proud of. We are individuals, not the minions of some mythical, nationalist or pan-nationalist construction.

Funglegunk · 26-08-2011 08:20AM

Irish when at home, double Irish or European when abroad.

pickarooney · 26-08-2011 09:06AM

tonycascarino wrote: »

I see myself as Irish and that's it.

Just as long as nobody takes a closer look at your family tree, eh Tony?

c_man · 26-08-2011 09:13AM

Closer to Boston than Berlin tbh.

SEPT 23 1989 · 26-08-2011 09:35AM

The further "the project" moves forward the more Irish i feel

pajunior · 26-08-2011 09:43AM

I think there are two dates going on here. One about European identity and one about EU citizenship.
You somewhat get to choose your identity, as a poster above has said he has cast of all national identities because he feels part of a global society. However i don't think this is so easy as the country you grow up in is always going to have a huge effect on you.
As for EU citizenship well if you are an Irish citizen then you are an EU citizen and you have no choice in the matter. You can check your passport.

Also why is everyone blaming the EU for fiscal problems we have brought on ourselves?

conorhal · 26-08-2011 09:56AM

grenache wrote: »

I'm puzzled as to how you think Irish people could have more in common with Americans than we do with our fellow Europeans, particularly central and southern European nations.

I don't watch a lot of Spanish soap operas, and while I'm a film buff that does watch French and German films, I'd say the bulk of TV and film I watch comes from America and that creates a cultural commonality and familiarity that does not exist for me with many other European nations. I love the British sense of humor for example, it's quite close to the Irish sense of humor and so most of the comedy I watch comes from the UK, have you ever seen Itallian 'comedy' (Jesus, even the Germans are funnier).

grenache wrote: »

From a moral and political perspective we are very similar to the French, German, Belgian, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish. Lets not forget that America has some outlandish right wing movements such as the Tea Party and other christian fundamentalist groups, something that is not commonplace in central/southern Europe. I think most Europeans are liberal thinking, obviously the further north one travels the more liberal it becomes.

You have a strangely homogenious view of the States. I'd say Greece and Poland were just as religously fervent at the Southern states. I think the Irish are pretty politically conservative.

grenache wrote: »

But in general Europe is united by it's tolerance of different creeds/belief systems/political views and its openness to change. Contrast this to America where its not currently possible to have A Socialist Party as it would be shot down by the dominant right wing element for being "communist". McCarthyism never went away, it still resides in the American psyche.

I find America to be a very tolerant place, it's the most harmoniously multicultural place on earth, sure there are problems and nobody could deny them, but given that it's population was created from the migrants of hundreds of different countries, with a vast array of religious and cultural practices, it's a tribute to the brilliance of the US constitution, a document that guarantees freedom of religious practice and expression that accommodates individualism and yet manages to weave all these disparate people into such a cohesive nation.

As for the bunkum about Communism, if you'd fought a few wars with Communist nations and gone to the brink of Nuclear Armageddon with the USSR you might be a little culturally leery of that bankrupt ideology too.

grenache wrote: »

Yes, we share similar interests in music and media as well as a common language. But for me, that's where the similarities end between us and the Americans. The average American is content to bear arms, as is provided for in the US constitution. The average Irish person would never want to bear arms. Likewise the average French or German.

Oh you're one of those people that gets sniffy about the yanks and gun ownership. You clearly know feck all about our European friends, Ireland because if it's history with paramilitaries is a bit of an abboration, gun ownership his actually pretty common on the continent in quite a few countries, and most of those uber liberal Nordic countries you're so find of are armed to the teeth. I guess it's a product of the same fronteerism that fosterd popular gun ownership in the US.

grenache wrote: »

So in some ways we're similar to America, but from a belief system and political point of view, Ireland is as European as it gets. And long may it continue.

Closer to Boston then Berlin in my opinion, I think the Irish share that American averice and individualism. Don't get me wrong,I like my European neighbors, but I also figure that good fences make good neighbors.

mickthemick · 30-08-2011 07:13PM

Our EU dictators like Herman Van Rompuy and Barroso want there to be a European Identity. I like been Irish.

Namlub · 30-08-2011 08:05PM

A lot of people don't know the difference between Europe and the EU...

Cork boy 55 · 30-08-2011 08:14PM

I voted NO in the poll , But upon reflection have changed my mind and would now like to vote YES.

fontanalis · 30-08-2011 08:21PM

mickthemick wrote: »

Our EU dictators like Herman Van Rompuy and Barroso want there to be a European Identity. I like been Irish.

Hopefully those dictators get removed at their respective countries next election.
You can have an irish and european identity, besides irish identity will be lost because of irish people, no one else.
Where did they say they wanted a european identity to replace others?

Eve_Dublin · 30-08-2011 08:31PM

Europe and EU...2 different things people!! :rolleyes:

I'm European. I live in Spain, I speak Spanish, travelled around Europe and I feel more of a connection to this continent than I ever felt during all the time I spent in the US. I don't get a hell of a lot about America, mainly their lack of desire for a socialist system and their religious fanaticism, their food and their mindset (the individualistic thinking and their obsession with careerism, for example). Don't get me wrong, I like America and it's people, it's just foreign to me. I feel like I'm in a very foreign country when I'm there bar the language. I don't feel like that when I travel round Europe.

fontanalis · 30-08-2011 08:38PM

Namlub wrote: »

A lot of people don't know the difference between Europe and the EU...

Some countries from Europe pay more into the EU than others!

Seanchai · 30-08-2011 08:46PM

dilbert2 wrote: »

Do you believe that a European identity exists?

Of course. I'm Irish and European. I am immensely proud to be associated with both. I don't feel alien in the art galleries of Firenze or the amazing streets of old Strasbourg, where Irish monks were so important as long ago as the sixteenth century. When I walk into the Irish Colleges in Louvain, Paris, Roma or Salamanca or see the grave of Aodh Rua Ó Dónaill in the Franciscan monastery in Valladolid in Spain it is clear that Ireland's past, as well as Ireland's future, is intrinsically connected with European history and identity.

Only somebody ignorant of Irish history, or brainwashed into accepting British nationalist narratives on Ireland's historic position, could deny that we, the Irish people, are European as well as Irish.

charlemont · 31-08-2011 02:06AM

One point I think is that if Ireland didnt join the EEC in 73, We would be an even worse gombeen state then we are now, Possibly still under the cloak of Catholicism and its paedophile friends.

Son Of A Vidic · 31-08-2011 02:49AM

Despite the best efforts of the Reichsführer Merkel and her urgent drive towards a European superstate. The 'European identity' will never exist, to compare it with the United States is folly. The United States is one nation, the European superstate will always be a conglomerate of many nations/identities.

mickthemick · 31-08-2011 02:15PM

fontanalis wrote: »

Hopefully those dictators get removed at their respective countries next election.

On 19 November 2009, Van Rompuy was chosen unanimously by the European Council, at an informal meeting in Brussels, to be the first full-time President of the European Councilfor the period of 1 December 2009 until 31 May 2012. He took up his position officially on 1 January 2010.

I didn't get to vote for him. We had no say. We should have.

The EU make over 80 percent of our laws. I like Europe, but I dislike the EU. It's obvious that there is a political elite in in Europe that want to make the EU into a superstate to rival China and the US.

Also they made us vote twice for Lisbon and Nice. They hate democracy!

pickarooney · 31-08-2011 02:16PM

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

I voted NO in the poll , But upon reflection have changed my mind and would now like to vote YES.

Just wait a couple of months until the poll is re-run.

prinz · 31-08-2011 02:34PM

Yes I consider myself European. A lot closer to European culture, politics, society, history, ideals, and outlooks than American or anything else. However it is pointless to compare it to the US, not even the EU compares to the US. What we have is uniquely European.

humanji · 31-08-2011 02:40PM

mickthemick wrote: »

On 19 November 2009, Van Rompuy was chosen unanimously by the European Council, at an informal meeting in Brussels, to be the first full-time President of the European Councilfor the period of 1 December 2009 until 31 May 2012. He took up his position officially on 1 January 2010.

I didn't get to vote for him. We had no say. We should have.

We voted in the people who voted on it.

The EU make over 80 percent of our laws.

No they don't.

I like Europe, but I dislike the EU. It's obvious that there is a political elite in in Europe that want to make the EU into a superstate to rival China and the US.

It's only obvious that people are spreading misinformation and passing it on as fact.

Also they made us vote twice for Lisbon and Nice. They hate democracy!

If they hated democracy then there wouldn't have been a vote in the first place. And it was the will of the people to accept both treaties the second time around.

The EU has enough wrong with it without having to make crap up.

mickthemick · 31-08-2011 03:17PM

humanji wrote: »

We voted in the people who voted on it.

What are you serious? Do you think in America the party should vote on a president, not the people?

humanji wrote: »

The EU has enough wrong with it without having to make crap up.

Yeah don't even be open to the ideas of what I'm saying. Nice job as a moderator.

Also 'The will of the people' voted in Lisbon. No, fear mongering and bullying did it. We voted No and they FORCED us again to vote. And they would of kept forcing a referendum on us. They only have one thing in mind and that is the centralisation of power.
If you want a United Europe I have no problem with your opinion. But our politicians and the Eurocrats have lead us down this path by not been fully honest. They want to build a Superstate. It's blatantly obvious.

They actually are in discussion to have a EU flag on national teams football jersey's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zatw17-bqT0

They forced us to take the bailouts, because they didn't want the banks to take a hit. The Federal Gov. in the US did the same.

There solution to everything is further integration fiscally, culturally and economically.

But keep supporting them and there anti democratic ways. Anything for the United Europe yeah?

humanji · 31-08-2011 04:00PM

mickthemick wrote: »

What are you serious? Do you think in America the party should vote on a president, not the people?

The president of the US has actual power. The president of the european council is a chairman. There's a world of difference.

Yeah don't even be open to the ideas of what I'm saying. Nice job as a moderator.

Do you want to point out where I was wrong? And what has me being a moderator on another forum have to do with a thread on this forum?

Also 'The will of the people' voted in Lisbon. No, fear mongering and bullying did it. We voted No and they FORCED us again to vote. And they would of kept forcing a referendum on us. They only have one thing in mind and that is the centralisation of power.

There's plenty of statistics that show is was fear mongering and lack of understanding that caused the first "no" vote. And stop pretending you were shanghaied into voting a second time. The government (that were democratically elected on a pro-EU mandate) were well within their constitutional rights to hold the referendum again. Nobody had to change their minds. It's funny how you can claim that democracy is being usurped, yet complain that the people were asked their opinon a second time. People changed their minds. Get over it.

If you want a United Europe I have no problem with your opinion. But our politicians and the Eurocrats have lead us down this path by not been fully honest. They want to build a Superstate. It's blatantly obvious.

It's not that obvious. It's the slippery slope argument that people use to come to the conclusion that X must happen because it's possible X could happen. Many countries in the EU are against a superstate (even Germany has shown that the majority of people don't want it).

They actually are in discussion to have a EU flag on national teams football jersey's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zatw17-bqT0

I highlighted the important part. They discuss all sorts of things that don't come to pass.

They forced us to take the bailouts, because they didn't want the banks to take a hit. The Federal Gov. in the US did the same.

They didn't force us.

There solution to everything is further integration fiscally, culturally and economically.

No it's not. It seems fairly evident that the larger countries want shot of the smaller, economically troubled ones

But keep supporting them and there anti democratic ways. Anything for the United Europe yeah?

Repeatedly claiming they're anti-democratic doesn't make it true.

You're a perfect example why there can't be a European identity similar to the US identity. There's too much mistrust between nations, however misplaced it might be.

The EU and European identity

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