ireland's literacy?what is going on?

Permabear · 05-05-2011 10:54AM

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Earthhorse · 05-05-2011 12:30PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I agree but the discussion is actually about Ireland's literacy levels; a gap in one person's vocabulary is hardly a great starting point for the debate.

So, yes, we have significant literacy issues in this country.

True, but it's a very specific problem. Looking at the articles you posted we find that there are two main groups affected by this. The first are from the older generation:

Most of those who scored at Level 1 were in the older age groups.There are a number of possible reasons why so many older people scored at Level 1 in IALS:
• they may not have completed primary school;
• may not have been able to take advantage of free second level education which was only introduced in 1967; or
• they may only have developed the literacy skills required for society at that time.

There should be adult literacy programmes in place to address these issues but it is still easy to understand how they came about.

It also appears that children currently going through the education system are being let down by it but that some of this is due to shifting demographics:

“Both teams of experts have concluded that some, but not all, of the lower scores in reading and maths are explained by changes in the demographics of the group of 15-year-olds taking the test,” she said.

“Greater numbers of students whose first language is not Irish or English are now in classrooms, as are greater numbers of students with special educational needs.”

Again, the education system should be addressing these needs but it's understandable that there will be a delay between new demands on the system and the system addressing those demands.

So whilst I think there are real issues to be addressed I think they're perfectly addressable and there's little cause for concern.

sealgaire · 05-05-2011 12:42PM

metrovelvet wrote: »

One has a scent and one doesn't. There are two varieties.

I'll come back when I go to a garage and find a garage attendant who doesn't know what diesel and normal unleaded is.

I used to work in a couple of petrol stations and beleive me, there are plenty of people who work in them who don't know there is a difference. Dare I say it . .. women usually . ... .. .

Permabear · 05-05-2011 12:50PM

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looksee · 05-05-2011 04:18PM

Mocking and berating Americans for their spelling of centre/center is just sidestepping the issue.

From my reading it is Metrovelvet who is being heavy handed about spelling. Everyone else is allowing for alternative spelling, M is insisting there is only one spelling.

Permabear · 06-05-2011 10:41AM

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Yakuza · 07-05-2011 09:30PM

metrovelvet wrote: »

I might add that you were patently wrong from your first post in correcting my spelling of centER. You want to claim an 'Irish message board.' The US invented the web, if you want to follow that train of thought.

Not true. While the network that the web runs on is based on the US military ARPANET design from the 1960's, the web as we know it was invented by Tim Berners-Lee in 1989-90, an Englishman working for CERN.

I have no problem with someone using American spelling here, and posts saying we spell it as centre here are pointless, however the lack of knowledge displayed by the guy in the centre hardly merits a post on literacy levels.

Yakuza · 07-05-2011 09:43PM

metrovelvet wrote: »

on ennuye.fr ]

You do know that ennuyé translates as "bored", not board, right?
Maybe Pickarooney was a bit too quick off the mark to correct your spelling, but these boards are peppered with Irish people using US spelling despite having been taught the Irish / British way of spelling, or worse still, mixing both in the same post. When you come in to this forum in particular, lambasting an entire nation's literacy based on an interaction with one person, using spelling that the majority of readers in it will assume is an error or some attempt to look cool, (i.e. not qualifying that you're American), expect some blowback.

Im Only 71Kg · 07-05-2011 09:50PM

there's a sign in my local pub stating Stickly over 18's!

Su Campu · 22-08-2011 11:10AM

Reading down threw this tread I could'nt help notising that the people what was complaining about other posters mistakes were actually making some pretty bad one's theirselve's.

(See how many deliberate errors you can find in that paragraph!)

The Garden Centre/er argument aside, I find that the standard of English punctuation and grammar used by people of all nationalities is horrendous. The popularity of written communication now serves to highlight this fact. I see countless errors on every single thread on boards.ie and other sites, the vast majority of which are not just simple typos. These errors are not just confined to general chat, as journalists, of whom I'd expect the highest standards of English, are just as bad.

The worst examples are:

"There is...." instead of "There are....", when speaking of more than one thing.
The use of an apostrophe to signify plural.
The omission of an apostrophe to signify the possessive case.
The confusion between "their" and "there".
The use of "of" instead of "have", eg. "I should of ....."

I hear people from all nationalities making these mistakes.

I sometimes wonder if English teachers have noticed this trend in recent years. I suppose not, given that many of them are culprits themselves.

Enkidu · 23-08-2011 06:18PM

What defines correct English can I ask? For instance, recent years have seen a decrease in the use of the past subjunctive with its functions being taken up by the past indicative,

If I were... => If I was...

Are these things errors or part of the natural evolution of the language?

pickarooney · 24-08-2011 06:28AM

I always thought that was the conditional rather than the subjunctive ('...that I be on time) but it's always described as the subjunctive on grammar websites. The subjunctive has probably gone hundredth monkey at this stage.

Enkidu · 25-08-2011 08:59AM

pickarooney wrote: »

I always thought that was the conditional rather than the subjunctive ('...that I be on time) but it's always described as the subjunctive on grammar websites. The subjunctive has probably gone hundredth monkey at this stage.

I think it's the subjunctive. The conditional usually expresses an action dependent on/conditional to another one, e.g. "If you would lift that box, I would help you", where as the subjunctive is a mood expressing possibility, e.g. "If I were to win a car", "If I were you".

Yakuza · 26-08-2011 11:59PM

The subjunctive isn't a tense in its own right, it's a mood - more assigning a tone to the sentence, rather then when the action in the sentence occurred.

In Spanish, the subjunctive is very much alive (all the tenses I learned have both indicitive and subjunctive moods) and is one of the biggest things I struggle with in the language as it's hardly ever acknowledged in English.

It's basically used to express (inter alia) :

a possible outcome ("If I were to win the lottery")),
an action that is doubtful whether it may or may not take place ,
a wish/desire/request (eg the song "If I were a rich man", from Fiddler on the roof )
a subjective opinion (I think it would be great if you were to get a better job)

We probably use the subunctive mood more than we think, but as the verb doesn't change in most of its forms, we're unaware of it.

27-08-2011 12:28PM

Enkidu wrote: »

I think it's the subjunctive. The conditional usually expresses an action dependent on/conditional to another one, e.g. "If you would lift that box, I would help you", where as the subjunctive is a mood expressing possibility, e.g. "If I were to win a car", "If I were you".

In my opinion, the examples you gave are just the 'if' clauses of a second conditional sentence. The second conditional in English is formed in this way:

if + clause using the past simple + clause using 'would' (or another modal verb)
e.g. If you lifted that box, I would help you

Your example (using two 'would' clauses) is not correct.

If someone asked me to explain the use of the subjunctive, I would tell them that it's used in this way:

It's essential that we leave as early as possible
All I ask is that you complete the form properly

I agree that quite a few websites and grammar books say that if + subject + were is another use of the subjunctive, so there's obviously a bit of an overlap somewhere but I consider your examples to be examples of the second conditional.

pickarooney · 28-08-2011 10:35PM

Andres Rich Grindstone wrote: »

It's essential that we leave as early as possible
All I ask is that you complete the form properly

Would it not be better to use examples where the verb form changes from the present tense?

Enkidu · 30-08-2011 10:36PM

Andres Rich Grindstone wrote: »

I agree that quite a few websites and grammar books say that if + subject + were is another use of the subjunctive, so there's obviously a bit of an overlap somewhere but I consider your examples to be examples of the second conditional.

If + subject + were is the English past subjunctive, it has evolved directly from the Anglo-Saxon past subjunctive.

Second Conditional is just one of the many bizarre grammar phrases applied only to the English language. Basically there are two common logically conditional statements, Real and Irreal. The past subjunctive is the traditional Indo-European construction used in Irreal clauses. In English grammars irreal clauses are sometimes called second conditionals, a name which obscures a typical application of the subjunctive.

EDIT: This isn't directed at you or anything. All this grammatical terminology is quite confusing, especially with the added complication of English only terms.

04-09-2011 11:28AM

pickarooney, feel free to find your own examples, but:

Her insistence that he leave seemed rude.

An example of a past meaning using a main verb in the present tense.

I'd rather you didn't do that.

An example of a present/future meaning using a main verb in the past simple.

Enkidu wrote: »

If + subject + were is the English past subjunctive, it has evolved directly from the Anglo-Saxon past subjunctive.

Second Conditional is just one of the many bizarre grammar phrases applied only to the English language. Basically there are two common logically conditional statements, Real and Irreal. The past subjunctive is the traditional Indo-European construction used in Irreal clauses. In English grammars irreal clauses are sometimes called second conditionals, a name which obscures a typical application of the subjunctive.

EDIT: This isn't directed at you or anything. All this grammatical terminology is quite confusing, especially with the added complication of English only terms.

But we're talking about the English language, so I'm using the names for tenses in the English language. It's not an 'added complication', it's English grammar. All languages have their own names for things. A sentence using an 'if' clause is usually called the second conditional, because you have, well, a condition.

'If I had a million dollars, I'd buy a Ferrari'

Take away the 'if' clause and the rest of the sentence doesn't really make sense. Obviously the second conditional is used for unreal/hypothetical situations, but we also have the third conditional.

'If I'd known he wanted a present, I would have bought one'

This is also used for unreal situations, but is not used in the same way as the second conditional. If we divide conditionals into two groups, real and unreal, it doesn't cover the different uses of the second and third conditionals. Third conditionals would then have to be described as 'past perfect subjunctives', not past subjunctives. I don't think there's much point in using the term 'subjunctive' to describe a structure in English at this stage, unless it can't be avoided. There are so many completely different uses that it really doesn't describe anything very clearly. What's your objection to second and third conditionals?

Enkidu · 04-09-2011 04:14PM

Andres Rich Grindstone wrote: »

But we're talking about the English language, so I'm using the names for tenses in the English language. It's not an 'added complication', it's English grammar.

Oh yes:), I said "This is not directed at you", to convey that there's nothing wrong with using these terms, just that it is unfortunate that the specific English grammar terms obscure the fundamental Indo-European construction.

All I'm saying is that in what is called the second and third conditionals (which in many languages, e.g. Irish, have fallen together) the traditional form of the verb was the past subjunctive. Typically (Although not in the Romance languages) the past subjunctive is identical in it's preterite and perfect forms, (the problem you point out), which is why the second and third have fallen together.

Now in a lot of languages, like English the subjunctive is basically gone, only the verb "be" has a form in English. As in most languages, the subjunctive in English has basically been replaced by the conditional. Hence, as you say, there is no real need to use the subjunctive to describe English grammar anymore. My original point is that this would have disgusted English grammarians of the past, not using the subjunctive being a sign of degraded speech. So I'm basically saying where do you draw the line between commonly made grammatical errors and the evolution of the language.

04-09-2011 05:20PM

Enkidu wrote: »

Oh yes:), I said "This is not directed at you", to convey that there's nothing wrong with using these terms, just that it is unfortunate that the specific English grammar terms obscure the fundamental Indo-European construction.

All I'm saying is that in what is called the second and third conditionals (which in many languages, e.g. Irish, have fallen together) the traditional form of the verb was the past subjunctive. Typically (Although not in the Romance languages) the past subjunctive is identical in it's preterite and perfect forms, (the problem you point out), which is why the second and third have fallen together.

Now in a lot of languages, like English the subjunctive is basically gone, only the verb "be" has a form in English. As in most languages, the subjunctive in English has basically been replaced by the conditional. Hence, as you say, there is no real need to use the subjunctive to describe English grammar anymore. My original point is that this would have disgusted English grammarians of the past, not using the subjunctive being a sign of degraded speech. So I'm basically saying where do you draw the line between commonly made grammatical errors and the evolution of the language.

It's hard to say, really. I dislike hearing phrases like 'if I was you' and 'I demand you to do it' and consider them to be bad English, but as you say, plenty of things we say today would have been scoffed at by the grammarians of the past.

Anyway, to answer the OP, I don't think one man not understanding the word 'aromatic' has anything to do with Ireland's literacy rates. Perhaps he misheard the word, perhaps he didn't understand OP's accent, perhaps he hadn't heard the word associated with sweet peas before. Perhaps he just didn't know that word. We all have gaps in our vocabulary. You can't take one isolated example and decide that this means that Irish people are all thick and illiterate. Saying that, I have noticed that a lot of people don't know the difference between 'lose' and 'loose', 'there' and 'their' and a surprising amount of people on Boards think it's correct to write 'I wasn't allowed do it' or 'I was made do it', so the OP isn't entirely incorrect. The example she gave was silly, though.

pickarooney · 04-09-2011 06:25PM

Andres Rich Grindstone wrote: »

a surprising amount of people on Boards think it's correct to write 'I wasn't allowed do it' or 'I was made do it', so the OP isn't entirely incorrect. The example she gave was silly, though.

Ah, Muphry. :pac:

im invisible · 04-09-2011 06:42PM

i usually make a point of reading a whole thread before i reply, but i just couldnt be doing it with this one....

so i'll just leave this here:

"I was in a Chinese restaurant when a duck came up to me with a rose and said:
'Your eyes sparkle like the stars'.
So I said to the waiter: 'Excuse me, I ordered aromatic duck!!!!!!'

04-09-2011 09:01PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Ah, Muphry. :pac:

Pfft, typical! I was going to use a different noun after 'amount' but I got distracted.

ireland's literacy?what is going on?

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