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Is Northern Ireland considered "Ireland" or "UK" country-wise?

2

Comments

  • #32
    chickenbutt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 594 ✭✭✭chickenbutt


    OPENROAD wrote: »
    From what nationality?

    Germans, US, Canadian, and even British.. I just get a little sad inside when it happens.


  • #33
    teol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭teol


    Tayla wrote: »
    The Irish government doesn't recognise the term 'british isles'

    Just looked that up.
    Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if there is an official Government or Department of Foreign Affairs position on the use of the term British Isles when referring to Ireland and Britain; if the use of this term by Government agencies and the media in Britain is discouraged in any way by his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [24442/05]

    Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. D. Ahern): The British Isles is not an officially recognised term in any legal or inter-governmental sense. It is without any official status. The Government, including the Department of Foreign Affairs, does not use this term.

    Our officials in the Embassy of Ireland, London, continue to monitor the media in Britain for any abuse of the official terms as set out in the [406]Constitution of Ireland and in legislation. These include the name of the State, the President, Taoiseach and others.

    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2005/09/28/00355.asp#N3


  • #34
    chickenbutt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 594 ✭✭✭chickenbutt


    Oh yeah! I almost forgot then I read that ^^ I was also taught that "Britain" refers to only Scotland, England, and Wales.


  • #35
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Buceph wrote: »
    It can be debated a lot of different ways. One interesting bit I did find though is that country and state aren't the same thing. You could be considered correct if you considered the Republic of Ireland a state, Northern Ireland a state, but the two of them together the country of Ireland.

    Thats exactly how I think about it. One country with 2 administrations, Most British actually refer to NI as a province anyway but in Irish terms NI is only a part of the province Ulster.


  • #36
    FinnLizzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 424 ✭✭FinnLizzy


    Irish.

    Even before partition we were still considered Irish. We have more in common with them than the British do.

    Even Ian Paisley considers himself Irish.

    Although NI has two separate cultures: Nationalist cultures would have a lot in common with the rest of Ireland and Loyalist culture is very isolated compared to mainstream Britain.

    It's a shame that its such a sensitive area.


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  • #37
    Naomi00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭Naomi00


    teol wrote: »
    Just looked that up.

    Our officials in the Embassy of Ireland, London, continue to monitor the media in Britain for any abuse of the official terms as set out in the [406]Constitution of Ireland and in legislation. These include the name of the State, the President, Taoiseach and others.

    The BBC and Channel 4 make an effort to use the proper terms e.g Taoiseach when talking about the Irish government. The amount of times RTE have referred to the Taoiseach as the 'prime minister' and called the Dáil the 'parliment' etc is embarrassing. I think they do it on purpose just to be annoying :|


  • #38
    Pretty_Pistol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,264 ✭✭✭Pretty_Pistol


    I always just consider it Northern Ireland. Anyone from there I would just call Northern Irish and neither British or Irish.


  • #39
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    FinnLizzy wrote: »
    Irish.

    Even before partition we were still considered Irish. We have more in common with them than the British do.

    Even Ian Paisley considers himself Irish.

    Although NI has two separate cultures: Nationalist cultures would have a lot in common with the rest of Ireland and Loyalist culture is very isolated compared to mainstream Britain.

    It's a shame that its such a sensitive area.
    The people from the Orange culture aren't that isolated. And yes, its in the UK.


  • #40
    Esel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,759 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    The people from the Orange culture aren't that isolated.
    Someone tell them that.

    When anyone from the island of Ireland goes to Angerland, they are all looked on as Paddies. "Pint of the devil's buttermilk is it, Paddy?"

    Not your ornery onager



  • #41
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    FinnLizzy wrote: »
    Loyalist culture is very isolated compared to mainstream Britain.

    Yet I've seen an Orange march in Edinburgh
    So not realy that isolated


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  • #42
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    teol wrote: »
    Just looked that up.
    Our officials in the Embassy of Ireland, London, continue to monitor the media in Britain for any abuse of the official terms as set out in the [406]Constitution of Ireland and in legislation. These include the name of the State, the President, Taoiseach and others.

    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/20...8/00355.asp#N3

    FFS. Have civil servants nothing better to be doing than surfing bbc.co.uk to pounce on references to the Irish Republic, or whatever bee happens to be in the bonnet of the nationalists on any given day.


  • #43
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Naomi00 wrote: »
    The BBC and Channel 4 make an effort to use the proper terms e.g Taoiseach when talking about the Irish government. The amount of times RTE have referred to the Taoiseach as the 'prime minister' and called the Dáil the 'parliment' etc is embarrassing. I think they do it on purpose just to be annoying :|
    (i) when do they ever do this?

    (ii) even if they did, why on earth is should it be 'embarrassing' to use an English translation - the language spoken by probably every citizen of this state.


  • #44
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Tubsandtiles wrote: »
    Northern Ireland is part of the UK which makes its people British

    Excellent, then. Nice to know that all the people of Ireland were "British" prior to 6 December 1922 when the British state withdrew from most of the country. Indeed, it seems from the above that the Irish people didn't exist until that date.

    Well done. I can see you've put immense thought into this. If the Irish can be classed as "British" for the duration of their time under British occupation, I look forward to a disquisition on the Iraqi people being "Americans" for the duration of their time under US occupation.


  • #45
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    chickenbutt wrote: »
    ...The British Isles....

    :rolleyes:


  • #46
    G86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,660 ✭✭✭G86


    It's in Ireland, therefore it's Ireland...

    I fail to see the point.


  • #47
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    G86 wrote: »
    It's in Ireland, therefore it's Ireland...

    I fail to see the point.
    It's on the island of Ireland geographically in the same way Ireland is part of the British Isles geographically.

    If one agrees that the description of Ireland as being part of the British Isles is inflammatory and un-necessary, I think we should be able to agree that describing Northern Ireland as being in Ireland is similarly provocative and should be avoided.


  • #48
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    later10 wrote: »
    It's on the island of Ireland geographically in the same way Ireland is part of the British Isles geographically.

    If one agrees that the description of Ireland as being part of the British Isles is inflammatory and un-necessary, I think we should be able to agree that describing Northern Ireland as being in Ireland is similarly provocative and should be avoided.

    Apples and oranges, later10. Given that the first recorded use (according to the OED) of the term "British Isles" in the English language is by an English imperialist named John Dee in a 1577 treatise claiming Ireland for the English crown the entire concept of the "British Isles" is designed to make a political claim over Ireland. Using that term to describe this archipelago is subjective. There are many other names for it, something which cannot be said for Ireland.
    It is disingenuous to contend that by the end of the British conquest of Ireland in the 17th century, when a modern British identity based on imperialism and defined against Irishness and Roman Catholicism was invented, "British Isles" merely became a harmless "geographical" description when it was used to include Ireland. Prior to Dee - indeed for a long time after - it was common to treat the two islands separately. Francis Bacon (1561-1626), for instance, never once referred to the "British Isles" in his work but always to "Britain and Ireland" or "Great Britain and Ireland".

    Ireland and Irishness, on the other hand, was a concept and an identity shared by all those from the Protestant community here as long ago as the eighteenth century, as I pointed out here. It is convenient revisionism when people deny this history of Protestant Ireland and relegate the idea of Ireland to being merely geographical.


    'I was born in the island of Ireland. I have Irish traits in me - we don't all have the traits of what came from Scotland, there is the Celtic factor . . . and I am an Irishman because you cannot be an Ulsterman without being an Irishman.' - Ian Paisley, quoted in J. Loughlin, Ulster Unionism and British National Identity Since 1885 (London and New York, 1995), p. 217.


  • #49
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Dionysus wrote: »
    Apples and oranges, later10. Given that the first recorded use (according to the OED) of the term "British Isles" in the English language is by an English imperialist named John Dee in a 1577 treatise claiming Ireland for the English crown the entire concept of the "British Isles" is designed to make a political claim over Ireland.
    Wrong tense. Was designed, not is designed. We're not living in 1577, British Isles is a widely recurring description in geology and wildlife texts. It's not a term that I think is particularly attractive, but neither, perhaps is it appropriate to describe Northern Ireland as being in Ireland, when that name has geographical and political meanings which are sometimes confused.
    Ireland and Irishness, on the other hand, was a concept and an identity shared by all those from the Protestant community here as long ago as the eighteenth century, as I pointed out here. It is convenient revisionism when people deny this history of Protestant Ireland and relegate the idea of Ireland to being merely geographical.
    Nobody's denying the history of Protestant Ireland, least of all myself given the fact that that's my own background. But the island of Ireland is a totally different entity to the sovereign term 'Ireland' when it pertains only to the Republic. That's an indisputable fact, and to avoid confusion, it is best to differentiate by referring to 'the island of Ireland' or 'The Republic of Ireland' in my opinion.
    I have Irish traits in me - we don't all have the traits of what came from Scotland, there is the Celtic factor . . . and I am an Irishman because you cannot be an Ulsterman without being an Irishman.' - Ian Paisley,
    What ridiculous nonsense - I'd love someone to explain to me what exactly 'Irish traits' are. Typical outdated guff.


  • #50
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    later10 wrote: »
    Wrong tense. Was designed, not is designed. We're not living in 1577, British Isles is a widely recurring description in geology and wildlife texts. It's not a term that I think is particularly attractive, but neither, perhaps is it appropriate to describe Northern Ireland as being in Ireland, when that name has geographical and political meanings which are sometimes confused.

    Nobody's denying the history of Protestant Ireland, least of all myself given the fact that that's my own background. But the island of Ireland is a totally different entity to the sovereign term 'Ireland' when it pertains only to the Republic. That's an indisputable fact, and to avoid confusion, it is best to differentiate by referring to 'the island of Ireland' or 'The Republic of Ireland' in my opinion.

    What ridiculous nonsense - I'd love someone to explain to me what exactly 'Irish traits' are. Typical outdated guff.
    irish traits,are using the words imperialist,empire,living in the 19th century,and spending their lives trying to find ways to hate anything british,


  • #51
    kahf1_02
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭kahf1_02


    Well I can tell you this from experience. The vast majority of people living up the north, regard themselvses are Irish, living in Ireland. North, south, west, east all equal really. We play under the 4 provinces in Rugby. Very simple really. Not rocket science.


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  • #52
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,816 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Who owns Rockall?, now that might be more important.;)


  • #53
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,433 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    UK. The political, tax, health, education and administrative systems are UK based, the citizens have UK passports (with the option of Irish passports). Culturally it's a mix of the two, but in reality it's the UK. I'd love to see what happened if it was handed back to us though. Probably all the above mentioned systems would turn into unadulterated shite.


  • #54
    Kev_ps3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭Kev_ps3


    Confab wrote: »
    UK. The political, tax, health, education and administrative systems are UK based, the citizens have UK passports (with the option of Irish passports). Culturally it's a mix of the two, but in reality it's the UK. I'd love to see what happened if it was handed back to us though. Probably all the above mentioned systems would turn into unadulterated shite.

    :rolleyes:
    More anti-Irish Unionist propaganda


  • #55
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Confab wrote: »
    UK. The political, tax, health, education and administrative systems are UK based, the citizens have UK passports (with the option of Irish passports). Culturally it's a mix of the two, but in reality it's the UK. I'd love to see what happened if it was handed back to us though. Probably all the above mentioned systems would turn into unadulterated shite.
    handed back ! did you ever have it in the first place ?


  • #56
    MugMugs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,871 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    I'm Irish! I'm Irish Too! I'm Irish and so's my wife!


  • #57
    Kev_ps3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭Kev_ps3


    getz wrote: »
    handed back ! did you ever have it in the first place ?

    Irish people have been living here for 10,000 years, we owned the north for 9,200 of those years, so yes we have ruled it for a majority of that time. Maby your history book doesnt go beyond your disgusting British foreign invasion and colonization.


  • #58
    GhostInTheRuins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,033 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    chickenbutt wrote: »
    As far as I know: the UK refers to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Great Britain being Scotland, England and Wales, obviously not including the Republic of Ireland. But the islands together are The British Isles. And Northern Ireland + the Republic are collectively Ireland.

    I've been asked so many times how I'm doing in the UK, I just stop correcting them..

    Buceph wrote: »
    It can be debated a lot of different ways. One interesting bit I did find though is that country and state aren't the same thing. You could be considered correct if you considered the Republic of Ireland a state, Northern Ireland a state, but the two of them together the country of Ireland.

    What is this "Republic of Ireland" that you speak of? There's no such place.

    A quick check:
    Bunreacht na h&#201 wrote: »
    Article 4

    The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English
    language, Ireland.


  • #59
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    North, south, east or west of the Island, is and alway's has been Ireland.
    The shít stirrers who refer to the six counties as.British should be deeply ashamed to class themselves as an Irish person to disown part of your very own island.

    I'm from County Derry originally, and I and 99% of the people I know from my area would be extremely insulted if someone told us we weren't Irish!

    The pro Brits here should go to Croke park the next time two of the norths big teams are playing, eg Derry and Tyrone, stand in the pitch with a mic, and exclaim to the supporters they don't come from Ireland, and sit back for the reaction your given.

    Shame on you.


  • #60
    El Siglo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,803 ✭✭✭El Siglo


    later10 wrote: »
    Wrong tense. Was designed, not is designed. We're not living in 1577, British Isles is a widely recurring description in geology and wildlife texts. It's not a term that I think is particularly attractive, but neither, perhaps is it appropriate to describe Northern Ireland as being in Ireland, when that name has geographical and political meanings which are sometimes confused.

    It's a term that's discouraged in Geology texts and articles, they're now moving towards the more PC "British and Irish Isles". I think it's more acceptable to describe the island as "Ireland", but when differentiating; "NI" and "ROI" are more practical, as you've said yourself. I would consider Northern Ireland as being part of Ireland (physically, not politically) but administrated by the UK. I know researchers that refer to Northern Ireland as "NWUK" - North West United Kingdom... ;)

    Thread reminds me of that scene in "In the name of the Father":
    Officer: "Place of birth."
    Gerry Conlon: "Belfast."
    Officer: "Then you're British."


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  • #61
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    They're hardy hars.


This discussion has been closed.
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