Oileán na Marbh

I Heart Internet · 22-08-2011 01:24PM

knird evol wrote: »

I Heart Internet...... reference your source that medics or doctors were called to industrial schools to tend kids being raped and beaten.

From the Ryan Report:

See Volume III Chapters 6 and 8 as well as Volume IV Chapter 3 for a more wideranging discussion on the society's attitude to the schools.

http://www.childabusecommission.ie

6.37Witnesses reported being assessed and treated for normal childhood accidental injuries and illnesses as well as physical injuries resulting from assault while resident in the Schools. Medical inspections, on-site infirmaries, immunisation and dental treatment were reported by many witnesses, as indicated in the following table:
Table 17: Types of Healthcare Reported – Male Industrial and Reformatory Schools
Healthcare Number of reports Infirmary available 228 Nurse available 185 Doctor attendance 115 Hospital attendance 106 Dental care 65 Immunisation 53 Medical inspection 29 Source: Confidential Committee of CICA, 2009

Evil stuff went on..carried out by criminal, evil people and covered up by others. I don't think it's shocking to say that some professionals (ie people with some bit of influence) including gardai, judges, doctors and politicians knew about it. A number (as can be seen in the Ryan Report) were moved to try and changes things, others were not it seems.

I Heart Internet · 22-08-2011 01:32PM

prinz wrote: »

What do the hospitals do today with the remains of miscarried or stillbirth? Medical waste isn't it?

I don't think that's true at all. In Ireland at least. I'm sure it's now handled quite sensitively by all concerned.

I do know of a couple (from ireland) who returned to ireland from another EU state to give birth to their (very early, very sick) baby because if it had been done (the induction) in the country they lived in the body would have been catagorised as "for disposal" (because it was too few weeks) rather than given back to them for burial.

I Heart Internet · 22-08-2011 01:36PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I'm quite sure some of those children would have rather taken their chances anywhere else than in the loving arms of the church.

I have no doubt that's true, and many would have got on better, but as I keep saying - society decided that they should be locked up in these institutions. Priests weren't going around the country with butterfly nets catching children. They were sent and delivered to these institutions.

Amhran Nua · 22-08-2011 01:48PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I have no doubt that's true, and many would have got on better, but as I keep saying - society decided that they should be locked up in these institutions. Priests weren't going around the country with butterfly nets catching children. They were sent and delivered to these institutions.

Of course church apologists are happy to spread around the blame as far as possible, since they make the culpability of the church less by doing so.

Why, we the Irish taxpayers are even now forking over our tax euros to cover compensation claims against priests as far away as the USA. Spreading the blame has a quantifiable dollar value it seems.

Let's look for a bit at the attitude of the church towards those Irish men and women who fought for the freedom of the Republic for a moment, shall we? Prior to the formation of the Irish state, the church roundly condemned all those who raised arms against the empire, declaring the fires of hell were not hot enough for them, a comment which one rebel ironically pointed out was accusing god of having failed to create perfection.

And yet after the formation of the Republic, the church moved in with full pomp and ceremony, wedging itself as strongly as it could into state apparatus, which it the leveraged to rape children, as it has in many other countries, as it is to this very day in places like the Philippines.

But this is a curious thing - since the church claims to speak with the immutable word of god, why did the word or opinion of god change after the church saw an opportunity to gain power in Ireland?

Is it possible that the church doesn't speak for anyone's god, but simply exists as a self perpetuating organisation whose only goal is its own continuation and enrichment with a flimsy fig leaf of religious verbosity?

I would say so. I think any right minded person would say so. And the time is long due for everyone to recognise this truth and act on it.

prinz · 22-08-2011 01:49PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I don't think that's true at all. In Ireland at least. I'm sure it's now handled quite sensitively by all concerned..

Pretty sure it is. A foetus has to reach a certain weight and age before even the stillbirth can be officially recognised in Ireland. Before that it's a non-entity. It is handled sensitively - counselling etc being on hand in the hospital bit AFAIK you have to go through a long and official process, form-filling etc to keep the remains. Otherwise the hospital takes care of cremation.

smash · 22-08-2011 01:53PM

prinz wrote: »

What do the hospitals do today with the remains of miscarried or stillbirth? Medical waste isn't it?

A miscarriage and a stillbirth is very different. A miscarriage is usually early in the pregnancy and would be unrecognisable. A stillbirth is usually a developed baby carried full term. Hardly medical waste by any means.

prinz · 22-08-2011 01:56PM

smash wrote: »

A miscarriage and a stillbirth is very different. A miscarriage is usually early in the pregnancy and would be unrecognisable. A stillbirth is usually a developed baby carried full term. Hardly medical waste by any means.

For a recognised stillbirth to be registered the pregnancy has to have gone 24 weeks and the foetus weight at least 500g, so no it doesn't have to be full term. Anything before that is deemed a miscarriage, even if only by a few days.

smash · 22-08-2011 01:58PM

prinz wrote: »

For a recognised stillbirth to be registered the pregnancy has to have gone 24 weeks and the foetus weight at least 500g, so no it doesn't have to be full term. Anything before that is deemed a miscarriage, even if only by a few days.

Shall I reiterate what I said?

"A stillbirth is usually a developed baby carried full term"

prinz · 22-08-2011 02:01PM

smash wrote: »

Shall I reiterate what I said?
"A stillbirth is usually a developed baby carried full term"

Great, so a miscarriage is usually at the beginning and a stillbirth is usually at the end. What bearing does that have on anything that went before?

Blisterman · 22-08-2011 02:12PM

I'm not defending the Catholic Church here, but I think a lot of people are looking at this based on modern day morals and ideals.

In the 19th century infant mortality was so high, that more women would have lost a child at some point than not. Out of necessity, parents emotionally distanced themselves from their infant children, so they weren't really considered "people" so to say, until they reached an older age.

Of course it's shocking, but I bet if you compared Ireland to other countries at the time, it wouldn't be that different a situation.

smash · 22-08-2011 02:20PM

prinz wrote: »

Great, so a miscarriage is usually at the beginning and a stillbirth is usually at the end. What bearing does that have on anything that went before?

What exactly are you talking about prinz? A stillbirth is a baby that is born dead, a miscarriage is not.

A stillbirth is in no way medical waste. A miscarriage is, because it usually requires a D&C to remove it.

anyway, this is all OT.

Neyite · 22-08-2011 02:24PM

smash wrote: »

A miscarriage is, because it usually requires a D&C to remove it.

Not quite. A D&C is only required when tissue remains after a certain timeframe, or in the event of a missed miscarriage (where there is no bleeding but scan shows no growth) and is removed to prevent infection. Women who miscarry monitor their HCG hormone by way of continious pregnancy tests. Once the test shows a negative, then no tissue remains.

As far as I know, women are given drugs now that assists in clearing the tissue before D&C is suggested

prinz · 22-08-2011 02:25PM

Blisterman wrote: »

Of course it's shocking, but I bet if you compared Ireland to other countries at the time, it wouldn't be that different a situation.

Indeed. Nothing out of the ordinary or restricted to Catholics unfortunately.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-11571783

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/21/unmarked-graves-children-protestant-home-dublin

A related concern was the issue of disposal of stillborn children.30 Before stillbirth registration, stillborn babies could be buried without the production to the gravedigger of any forms of medical certificate or declaration statutorily required in Scotland.31 The Scottish Board of Health advised that there was no legal obligation on doctors to certify a child stillborn in either Scotland or England, and that it was not the general practice among doctors to do so. They added that it ‘frequently happen[ed] that bodies of still-born children [were] buried in places other than cemeteries or Burial Grounds’

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2808697/

the purple tin · 22-08-2011 02:26PM

Who came up with the catholic church's policies in Ireland?
Did Irish bishops and cardinals make the rules for Irish catholics or did everything have to come straight from the Pope/Vatican?

I Heart Internet · 22-08-2011 02:34PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Of course church apologists are happy to spread around the blame as far as possible, since they make the culpability of the church less by doing so.

Why, we the Irish taxpayers are even now forking over our tax euros to cover compensation claims against priests as far away as the USA. Spreading the blame has a quantifiable dollar value it seems.

Or maybe it's right to actually investigate and root out all the answers to all the questions so we can make sure none of this can ever happen again. Maybe people want all the answers? Not just the convenient ones. As a fan of history you would surely want the record to show (as I believe it does in the various reports) the full, awful truth.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

But this is a curious thing - since the church claims to speak with the immutable word of god, why did the word or opinion of god change after the church saw an opportunity to gain power in Ireland?

Is it possible that the church doesn't speak for anyone's god, but simply exists as a self perpetuating organisation whose only goal is its own continuation and enrichment with a flimsy fig leaf of religious verbosity?

I would say so. I think any right minded person would say so. And the time is long due for everyone to recognise this truth and act on it.

Hold the presses. This just in: "Church Really a Political Entity".

Those people living under a rock since c.300 AD will be shocked at your discovery.

Amhran Nua · 22-08-2011 03:00PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Or maybe it's right to actually investigate and root out all the answers to all the questions so we can make sure none of this can ever happen again. Maybe people want all the answers? Not just the convenient ones. As a fan of history you would surely want the record to show (as I believe it does in the various reports) the full, awful truth.

Oh sure, there's blame to go around. But lets not forget it was the hypocritical child molester protecting organisation that set up the environment to make it happen.

Here's how these conversations usually go.

You tell me that it was the fault of the Irish state, and I tell you that it was the fault of the church.

You tell me that all Irish society was sick and to blame, I tell you that it was the church's influence that made it sick.

You tell me that there's something endemically wrong with Irish society and people and the church isn't to blame, I ask you whether or not you are insinuating that Irish people have a natural prediliction towards child molestation. You say not in as many words and I link to studies showing that the prevalence of paedophilia in Ireland is among the lowest in the world, which is also supported by the obvious fact that the church is getting sued for molesting children in many other countries. You hit the report button as a last resort.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Hold the presses. This just in: "Church Really a Political Entity".

Those people living under a rock since c.300 AD will be shocked at your discovery.

Excellent, I'm glad you've abandoned the pretense of the church as holding a shred of spiritual or moral authority. Can we tax its takings and regulate it as a private limited company already? Don't worry about masses and rituals, we can get tech support from Dell to say those, they have as much religious authority as any priest of the Catholic church. Lord knows they're used to reading the answers out of a book.

Wolfe Tone · 22-08-2011 03:05PM

Let me get this straight, the babies weren't baptized so they couldn't get buried in a catholic graveyard, is this what this is about?

I Heart Internet · 22-08-2011 03:17PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

You tell me that it was the fault of the Irish state, and I tell you that it was the fault of the church.

You tell me that all Irish society was sick and to blame, I tell you that it was the church's influence that made it sick.

You tell me that there's something endemically wrong with Irish society and people and the church isn't to blame, I ask you whether or not you are insinuating that Irish people have a natural prediliction towards child molestation. You say not in as many words and I link to studies showing that the prevalence of paedophilia in Ireland is among the lowest in the world, which is also supported by the obvious fact that the church is getting sued for molesting children in many other countries. You hit the report button as a last resort.

No. At no time did I ever say the church wasn't to blame. I just said others were too. You seem to hold the absolute position that no one outside the institutional chuch is to blame for the abuse of kids

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Excellent, I'm glad you've abandoned the pretense of the church as holding a shred of spiritual or moral authority.

I never offered that view. What makes you think i did?

Amhran Nua · 22-08-2011 03:23PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No. At no time did I ever say the church wasn't to blame. I just said others were too. You seem to hold the absolute position that no one outside the institutional chuch is to blame for the abuse of kids

Certainly the source of the problems can be found within the institutional church.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I never offered that view. What makes you think i did?

So you'd be happy enough with taxing church income and assets as a private limited company?

prinz · 22-08-2011 03:25PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

So you'd be happy enough with taxing church income and assets as a private limited company?

:pac: Good one.

I Heart Internet · 22-08-2011 03:41PM

prinz wrote: »

Amhran Nua wrote: »

So you'd be happy enough with taxing church income and assets as a private limited company?

:pac: Good one.

Yeah. Not bothered one way or another about the money - seems to be a big bone of contention with some people.

I dunno how you'd do it. Change the company laws or those surrounding charities I guess.

Don't see what this has to do with preventing child abuse or whatnot. But, heh, knock yourself out.

h2005 · 22-08-2011 03:44PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

There's a load of these graveyards scattered all over the country I think, there's certainly one in Moycullen in Galway, although nobody likes to talk about it much. Nasty business.

As usual, my response is to seize church properties and assets in the state as penalty for their grievous and ongoing crimes against the people and children of Ireland.

Where is the one in Moycullen?

Amhran Nua · 22-08-2011 03:56PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yeah. Not bothered one way or another about the money - seems to be a big bone of contention with some people.

I dunno how you'd do it. Change the company laws or those surrounding charities I guess.

Don't see what this has to do with preventing child abuse or whatnot. But, heh, knock yourself out.

As you admit yourself, the church is only interested in secular power and wealth, so by removing the wealth you remove the power, and hence the opportunity to conduct abuse. As well as that, obviously all religious organisations need to be immediately, permanently and fully divorced from the functions of the state, in particular those dealing with children or young people.

h2005 wrote: »

Where is the one in Moycullen?

The last I saw of it was almost twenty years ago when I was out wandering the byroads at night with an ex girlfriend, who pointed it out to me. I couldn't find it on a map now, nor recognise it if I walked over it. I may even be a bit hazy on the general location, but she was from Moycullen so that's presumably where we were walking.

Pace2008 · 22-08-2011 03:59PM

I always remember my mother telling me that for my Granny the hours succeeding the birth of her five children were not times of great joy but great fear, as the babies were unbbaptised and risked spending eternity in limbo should any serious complications arise.

I'm sure the medical would insist on keeping the newborns in the hospital till the green light was given, but baptism was absolutely top of the list of priorities following the birth. Pretty horrible;le environment of fear to have cultivated.

prinz · 22-08-2011 04:05PM

smash wrote: »

What exactly are you talking about prinz? A stillbirth is a baby that is born dead, a miscarriage is not..

Perhaps you should go check the official line, particularly the date/weight cut off.

Dionysus · 23-08-2011 04:44PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Let me get this straight, the babies weren't baptized so they couldn't get buried in a catholic graveyard, is this what this is about?

Yes. You'd still hear older Irish people going on about this "churching" thing. It was not, as an earlier poster noted, an exclusively Irish thing but it happened in most if not all churches in Western Christianity, and continues on in the Eastern Christian churches today.

Perhaps the most objectionable aspect of this practice in the CC's teaching was that any baby which died before being baptised could not enter heaven - and was forever in a place they invented and called Limbo. In 2006 the Catholic Church finally scrapped this nonsense (good article, by the way) claiming, after all, 'Limbo' was never a doctrine but rather a hypothesis. Grrrrr - how much hurt did that cost surviving relatives throughout the centuries?

To drive home the "unchristian" nature of these babies, their parents were refused the right to bury their babies in Catholic cemeteries and the most common story of all you'd hear in Ireland is of women going up to the church in the middle of the night, being "churched" and then burying their babies outside the cemetery's wall but as near to it as possible.

This enlightening interview (Oileán na Marbh gets another mention) with a woman who had stillbirths in Ireland in the 1970s and 80s talking about her experiences made me shiver.

fontanalis · 23-08-2011 05:23PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Let me get this straight, the babies weren't baptized so they couldn't get buried in a catholic graveyard, is this what this is about?

But the stigma of having an unbaptised child being treated like an outcast must have been terrible, then when you think of some of the scum who got catholic burials the whole thing is nauseating.

IrishEyes19 · 23-08-2011 06:30PM

knird evol wrote: »

I Heart Internet...... reference your source that medics or doctors were called to industrial schools to tend kids being raped and beaten.

Very interesting article by the way and terribly sad. Something very haunting about such graves I always find.

But on the note of industrial schools and Id mention Magadalen laundries. The church can only be blamed so far. The magdalen laundries for instance is an absolute scandal, yet many families sent their own kids their and disowned them from that point on. Rapists got away and pregnant teens were outed by their own blood. So you can only take blaming people so far.

the nazi era for example was mentioned earlier. People in the nearby towns knew what the smoke coming out of those chimneys were and nothing was said.

I dont agree with most of what the church has done in Ireland to date, but people have to take responsibility too for their own beliefs. Irish society has naturally shunned people who didnt conform in the past, and that includes girls who got pregnant,, misbehaving children sent to industrial schools, ect. and though it is true that the church passed these beliefs through society, people chose to adopt them, people chose to live to by them and to this day, many of the older generation still harbour such beliefs. Ireland has always been a what goes on behind closed doors stays there, until recently.

People can decide where there morals lie, and quite frankly, the jig is up for hiding behind a religious belief and blaming it entirely. A society as a whole can hold a institution up or tear it down. when the sex allegations were released in the last coming years, the Roman C church has been brought down on it knees for its crimes and its a joke at this stage. People wanted to be believe in god in past ireland, it was the times.

Thankfully we have moved into a better society where people can be accepted for whatever sexual orrientation, or marital status they want. We are getting there.

On the note of the article. I think its essential to have these graves identified or at least commemorated. Its a tradegy and unfair to the poor souls resting there. However, it would be interesting if the mothers of such children would want that. I only say that because my own grandmother's mother did not want to know where the child was buried and she was off that era. It strikes me as sad, as today the case is so different.

Oileán na Marbh

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