Oileán na Marbh

Dionysus · 22-08-2011 08:15AM #1

Has anybody read this in this morning's Irish Times?

It was very poignantly written, but it highlights yet another aspect of the unchristian nature of what passed as the principal Christian church in Ireland. Oileán na Marbh is an island off Donegal where a mind-numbing 500 babies are buried. These babies were refused a Christian burial and their parents denied the respect and consideration which their very real suffering deserved. There is a soul-destroying 1200 additional known burial sites for stillborn and unbaptised babies across Ireland. The savagery, abject coldness and sheer inhumanity of the way these parents were treated by a supposedly compassionate and loving Church is staggering.

Oileán na Marbh

OILEÁN NA Marbh in Co Donegal tells us much about ourselves and about a society that allowed religion to dictate in the intimate sphere, that suppressed rather than enhanced, that categorised levels of spiritual worthiness and sniffed at those outside the orthodox strait-jacket. Times past, no doubt, but the remnants still linger in the failure of some churchmen to fully take on board the sexual cruelties that were visited on many vulnerable children.

Few will feel proud of a theology that demanded stillborn and unbaptised babies should be laid to rest outside of consecrated ground. Even the coldest heart will feel for women around Ireland who were enjoined to grieve silently as their babies were taken away at night for burial beside a cemetery wall, or for the disconsolate father who had to walk across to Oileán na Marbh at low tide to lay his child to rest.

Séamus Peter Boyle, a founding campaigner to have a plaque erected in honour of the island’s dead, expressed it poignantly. They had all watched the mothers and fathers on the beaches and the pier over the years, some going to the island alone and “we knew but it was never really spoken about”. The 200 people who gathered on this rocky Carrickfinn island last week were there to speak about it, and to honour the 500 babies interred on the island between the Great Famine and 1912 and the immeasurable suffering of their parents. They were there not only on behalf of the island’s dead, but also in a sense for those buried in more than 1,200 known burial sites around the country. They were there to demonstrate that, as Mr Boyle said, “things have changed”.

There is now more sensitivity in how we deal with death generally. Glasnevin Cemetery in Dublin has been responding to issues raised by parents about the Angels areas. A Little Lifetime Foundation has continued to comfort, inform and support many couples who have endured stillbirth and neonatal deaths. The Irish Hospice Foundation, through the Forum on End of Life, its Hospice Friendly Hospitals Programme and the Final Journeys project, has brought a professional and compassionate focus to end-of-life issues. The funeral business is tailoring its sometimes costly services to meet changing needs, among them the increasing desire for non-religious funerals, cremation, and a reduction in removals. The regulation of this sector is vital and could be organised at little cost. Like the Oileán na Marbh commemoration, it would enhance the Irish way of doing death.

Saila · 22-08-2011 08:21AM

dionysus wrote:

stillborn babies

longshanks · 22-08-2011 08:22AM

<SNIP>

Ghandee · 22-08-2011 08:25AM

<SNIP>
If you think thats funny, you have a sick fücking mind.

Magic Beans · 22-08-2011 08:30AM

Everything the Catholic Church touches is tainted. They display no Christianity or humanity. I cannot see what purpose they serve.

hondasam · 22-08-2011 08:33AM

<SNIP>
I assume you find that funny but really it's just nasty, ignorant and insensitive.

Poor Uncle Tom · 22-08-2011 08:51AM

Dionysus wrote: »

Oileán na Marbh is an island off Donegal where a mind-numbing 500 babies are buried. These babies were refused a Christian burial and their parents denied the respect and consideration which their very real suffering deserved.

How many thousand end up in the buckets of back street clinics every year?

Son Of A Vidic · 22-08-2011 09:55AM

Magic Beans wrote: »

Everything the Catholic Church touches is tainted. They display no Christianity or humanity. I cannot see what purpose they serve.

Certainly not the man who's message they claim to represent.

wild_cat · 22-08-2011 10:01AM

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

How many thousand end up in the buckets of back street clinics every year?

There's a big difference between wanted full term babies and unwanted zygotes.

Depending on your belief system anyway.

I Heart Internet · 22-08-2011 10:12AM

There's something unsettling about how easily and completely "the church" (however you want to define it) is given 100% of the blame for these things that happened in all our shared past.

I agree they had a lot of power they could have used to change these situations - but if what many commentators are right and that the church was society and society was the church....isn't it just a little bit slippery of all of us to say that only the fellas wearing the collars were responsible for this. Anyway - where did the fellas in collars come from except out of our own families?

It was a sick society - and it didn't stop at the church.

Amhran Nua · 22-08-2011 10:15AM

There's a load of these graveyards scattered all over the country I think, there's certainly one in Moycullen in Galway, although nobody likes to talk about it much. Nasty business.

As usual, my response is to seize church properties and assets in the state as penalty for their grievous and ongoing crimes against the people and children of Ireland.

Zebra3 · 22-08-2011 10:18AM

And still the zombies line up to have their kids put into this organisation and to get married in it...... :rolleyes:

wild_cat · 22-08-2011 10:23AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

There's something unsettling about how easily and completely "the church" (however you want to define it) is given 100% of the blame for these things that happened in all our shared past.

I agree they had a lot of power they could have used to change these situations - but if what many commentators are right and that the church was society and society was the church....isn't it just a little bit slippery of all of us to say that only the fellas wearing the collars were responsible for this. Anyway - where did the fellas in collars come from except out of our own families?

It was a sick society - and it didn't stop at the church.

It was but no man of god could have been wrong back then....

I presume when your child went into the priest hood it was seen as a direct calling from god.

So I presume what "god" channelled through these people went as law and no one was going to question that.

wild_cat · 22-08-2011 10:26AM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

There's a load of these graveyards scattered all over the country I think, there's certainly one in Moycullen in Galway, although nobody likes to talk about it much. Nasty business.

My grand aunt buried twins in a very old family grave in a disused grave yard. They had to do it in the middle of the night.

I'd say that happened quite a lot and due to everything being so closed years ago I doubt whole families know they have siblings or relatives randomly buried in family graves.

I Heart Internet · 22-08-2011 10:41AM

wild_cat wrote: »

It was but no man of god could have been wrong back then....

I presume when your child went into the priest hood it was seen as a direct calling from god.

So I presume what "god" channelled through these people went as law and no one was going to question that.

But then isn't it all (I mean Irish society at that time...many of us weren't born then) of our faults for buying into that attitude. Were judges unaware of the brutal nature of some places they were sending kids to? Did the doctors who patched up kids from orphanages who had "fallen down stairs" really believe it after the first hundred times?

I guess what I'm saying is.....the type of church that many despise now didn't take over this country by force. They were handed it on a plate and asked to do our dirty work.

Amhran Nua · 22-08-2011 10:54AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

But then isn't it all (I mean Irish society at that time...many of us weren't born then) of our faults

No, it's not. The idea originated with the church and was perpetuated by the church. It's the fault of the church. The people digging the graves weren't bishops but the guards at Auschwitz weren't generals either. They didn't do what they did because they were German, they did it because someone told them to.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I guess what I'm saying is.....the type of church that many despise now didn't take over this country by force. They were handed it on a plate and asked to do our dirty work.

The church swooped in on a post colonial state after a particularly brutal few centuries of occupation by a country who viewed the inhabitants as little better than vermin. Ireland was worn to a frazzle, battered and exhausted. So along come the holy joes and say, hey ignore all that other stuff we did to legitimise your indiginity, we'll just buy up a load of this while its cheap, insert ourselves into state services while they are reeling, and yoink, we can play this place like a violin from hell, and we'd know about that.

As for being asked to do our dirty work, have you one iota of evidence to support your accusation about the treatment of stillborn children in pre-Christian Ireland?

ItsAWindUp · 22-08-2011 11:08AM

An absolute travesty, these women who's babies died before babtism were treated disgracefully, and I should know, my gran was one. Wasn't even allowed to keep the body, it was buried in an unmarked location.

Dyr · 22-08-2011 11:15AM

We should dig up the remains of a few bishops and catapult them into the sea.

Just for the craic

Insect Overlord · 22-08-2011 11:18AM

I'd read about that island earlier this year. A fascinating piece of social history, but very, very sad to think too much about it.

The Scientician · 22-08-2011 11:24AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Were judges unaware of the brutal nature of some places they were sending kids to? Did the doctors who patched up kids from orphanages who had "fallen down stairs" really believe it after the first hundred times?

I imagine some judges were just ignorant, others may have felt that the brutal treatment would do the kids some good. Poverty was considered unseemly, sinful by many in our society, for a long, long time. Times have changed immensely with regard to the treatment of children (thanks be to fúck).

In my lifetime it has gone from being acceptable for a non-parent to batter a kid, to socially unacceptable for a parent to administer all but the most symbolic corporal punishment to their kids.

I Heart Internet · 22-08-2011 12:53PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

No, it's not. The idea originated with the church and was perpetuated by the church. It's the fault of the church. The people digging the graves weren't bishops but the guards at Auschwitz weren't generals either. They didn't do what they did because they were German, they did it because someone told them to.

So the "just following orders" defence is fine? Covers everything? Everyone can wash their hands of it - it was all the bishops/generals fault.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

we'll just buy up a load of this while its cheap, insert ourselves into state services while they are reeling, and yoink, we can play this place like a violin from hell, and we'd know about that.

The RCC was delivering "state services" in Ireland long before 1921 and long before they were "state services". I don't doubt they muscled into prime position after independence (or I would say were invited in with trumpets blaring by a state desperate for credibility) but the vast health and education infrastucture developed by the RCC before independence did serve real people and was far from all bad.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

As for being asked to do our dirty work, have you one iota of evidence to support your accusation about the treatment of stillborn children in pre-Christian Ireland?

I used dirty work refering to the provision of (ridiculously inadequate) care for kids taken off parents (by the state).
I have no evidence at all of how pre-Christian Ireland treated stillborn babies. I have no doubt in some ways they may have been more humane than we are even now. But are you saying pre-Christian ireland was a better, safer, all-round-lovelier place to raise a child than 20th century Ireland? Really?

steddyeddy · 22-08-2011 12:55PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Has anybody read this in this morning's Irish Times?

It was very poignantly written, but it highlights yet another aspect of the unchristian nature of what passed as the principal Christian church in Ireland. Oileán na Marbh is an island off Donegal where a mind-numbing 500 babies are buried. These babies were refused a Christian burial and their parents denied the respect and consideration which their very real suffering deserved. There is a soul-destroying 1200 additional known burial sites for stillborn and unbaptised babies across Ireland. The savagery, abject coldness and sheer inhumanity of the way these parents were treated by a supposedly compassionate and loving Church is staggering.

Oileán na Marbh

OILEÁN NA Marbh in Co Donegal tells us much about ourselves and about a society that allowed religion to dictate in the intimate sphere, that suppressed rather than enhanced, that categorised levels of spiritual worthiness and sniffed at those outside the orthodox strait-jacket. Times past, no doubt, but the remnants still linger in the failure of some churchmen to fully take on board the sexual cruelties that were visited on many vulnerable children.

Few will feel proud of a theology that demanded stillborn and unbaptised babies should be laid to rest outside of consecrated ground. Even the coldest heart will feel for women around Ireland who were enjoined to grieve silently as their babies were taken away at night for burial beside a cemetery wall, or for the disconsolate father who had to walk across to Oileán na Marbh at low tide to lay his child to rest.

Séamus Peter Boyle, a founding campaigner to have a plaque erected in honour of the island’s dead, expressed it poignantly. They had all watched the mothers and fathers on the beaches and the pier over the years, some going to the island alone and “we knew but it was never really spoken about”. The 200 people who gathered on this rocky Carrickfinn island last week were there to speak about it, and to honour the 500 babies interred on the island between the Great Famine and 1912 and the immeasurable suffering of their parents. They were there not only on behalf of the island’s dead, but also in a sense for those buried in more than 1,200 known burial sites around the country. They were there to demonstrate that, as Mr Boyle said, “things have changed”.

There is now more sensitivity in how we deal with death generally. Glasnevin Cemetery in Dublin has been responding to issues raised by parents about the Angels areas. A Little Lifetime Foundation has continued to comfort, inform and support many couples who have endured stillbirth and neonatal deaths. The Irish Hospice Foundation, through the Forum on End of Life, its Hospice Friendly Hospitals Programme and the Final Journeys project, has brought a professional and compassionate focus to end-of-life issues. The funeral business is tailoring its sometimes costly services to meet changing needs, among them the increasing desire for non-religious funerals, cremation, and a reduction in removals. The regulation of this sector is vital and could be organised at little cost. Like the Oileán na Marbh commemoration, it would enhance the Irish way of doing death.

I find it hard to find an instance where the catholic church has been anything but cold and uncaring towards the people of Ireland.

steddyeddy · 22-08-2011 01:01PM

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

An absolute travesty, these women who's babies died before babtism were treated disgracefully, and I should know, my gran was one. Wasn't even allowed to keep the body, it was buried in an unmarked location.

My uncle was buried in a paupers grave (he died at 5) the catholic church wouldnt afford him a decent burial without money. I think their an example of a negative force in this country and frankly the onus is on them to prove otherwise.

steddyeddy · 22-08-2011 01:02PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So the "just following orders" defence is fine? Covers everything? Everyone can wash their hands of it - it was all the bishops/generals fault.

The RCC was delivering "state services" in Ireland long before 1921 and long before they were "state services". I don't doubt they muscled into prime position after independence (or I would say were invited in with trumpets blaring by a state desperate for credibility) but the vast health and education infrastucture developed by the RCC before independence did serve real people and was far from all bad.

I used dirty work refering to the provision of (ridiculously inadequate) care for kids taken off parents (by the state).
I have no evidence at all of how pre-Christian Ireland treated stillborn babies. I have no doubt in some ways they may have been more humane than we are even now. But are you saying pre-Christian ireland was a better, safer, all-round-lovelier place to raise a child than 20th century Ireland? Really?

The celts had divorce, women were afforded more rights and they didnt have this catholic guilt that a lot of people have now. They were far more advanced socially than the typical catholic.

knird evol · 22-08-2011 01:02PM

I Heart Internet...... reference your source that medics or doctors were called to industrial schools to tend kids being raped and beaten.

steddyeddy · 22-08-2011 01:04PM

knird evol wrote: »

I Heart Internet...... reference your source that medics or doctors were called to industrial schools to tend kids being raped and beaten.

Chrisitne Buckley stated that it was the case, she also said inspectors who called to the school knew what was going on.

mikemac · 22-08-2011 01:06PM

Limbo existed for centuries

Then suddenly they declared it didn't exist
Strange

steddyeddy · 22-08-2011 01:06PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv6DUajEkEY

This lady is my hero by any criteria she is a saint and someone I would look to for courage and someone who could describe the nature of the catholic church in ireland. Here shes describes her trips to the hospital were she wasnt beleived about the beatings.

prinz · 22-08-2011 01:08PM

What do the hospitals do today with the remains of miscarried or stillbirth? Medical waste isn't it?

Logical Fallacy · 22-08-2011 01:14PM

Dionysus wrote: »

The savagery, abject coldness and sheer inhumanity of the way these parents were treated by a supposedly compassionate and loving Church is staggering.

In 1912 the Church wasn't running with the image of compassion and love they attempt today...they were just the Church, they represented God and we will all evil sinners on the way to hell. They were right and had the power, we were wrong and cowed by them.

Not disagreeing with your sentiment at all...just pointing out that Church have long embraced cruelty and have inflicted suffering on people for centuries.

This new touchy feely Church is a recent thing, and they even got that wrong.

Amhran Nua · 22-08-2011 01:22PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So the "just following orders" defence is fine? Covers everything? Everyone can wash their hands of it - it was all the bishops/generals fault.

The whole body of actions resulting from the teachings of the Catholic church are the responsibility of the Catholic church. Would people have buried stillborn babes in unmarked graves if it were not for the teachings of the church? So yes, the church is wholly responsible.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The RCC was delivering "state services" in Ireland long before 1921 and long before they were "state services". I don't doubt they muscled into prime position after independence (or I would say were invited in with trumpets blaring by a state desperate for credibility) but the vast health and education infrastucture developed by the RCC before independence did serve real people and was far from all bad.

The hypocrisy of the church in strongarming its way into an important position in a fragile young state after centuries of condemning those who fought for the freedom of that state, (such as the wretched Cardinal Logue, who said the government could not be faulted for punishing - executing - the 1916 leaders) is quite typical of the theocratic doublespeak representatives of the church come out with.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I used dirty work refering to the provision of (ridiculously inadequate) care for kids taken off parents (by the state).

I'm quite sure some of those children would have rather taken their chances anywhere else than in the loving arms of the church.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I have no evidence at all of how pre-Christian Ireland treated stillborn babies. I have no doubt in some ways they may have been more humane than we are even now. But are you saying pre-Christian ireland was a better, safer, all-round-lovelier place to raise a child than 20th century Ireland? Really?

It would certainly have been better had the church kept its grubby hands away from Ireland.

Since there aren't any time machines however, we'll have to settle for throwing them out on their ears today.

Oileán na Marbh

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