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Myers (again) on Uganda 'development aid'

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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Sky King wrote: »
    There's a country that spends a billion a year on their defence budget while the healthcare system is in rack and ruin and people are still homeless on the streets.

    It's called Ireland. Whats the diff?
    You can't see the vast chasm of difference between Ireland and Uganda? The vast majority of Irish people have roofs over their head, the vast majority of Irish people have access to medical care.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Wibbs wrote: »

    Towering intellect? Hmm dunno about that, however it may explain why I mostly seem to be looking down on some alright.

    Self delusion is a powerful thing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 400 ✭✭Broads.ie


    This topic really gets my blood boiling! I spent 3 months in Uganda and I can confirm that our aid isn't working, (and that nobody has heard of Bono or U2!)

    Also, in 2008 the president of Uganda, Yoweri Museveni, bought himself a $50million luxury jet while his regime was receiving aid money. The price of their staple food has doubled in the last year yet the minimum wage is about a euro or two per day. There is no assistance whatsoever from the government - no dole, no state pension, no "free cheese" :pac:, no child allowance... Primary education is free but the teachers are underpaid or not paid at all so they aren't the most enthusiastic when it comes to creating an educative environment for school kids.


    By the way, did you know that the salary of Kenyan MPs is around $10,000 a month? That's excluding the allowances such as housing, cars, security, servants, and they all have their fingers dipped in various businesses throughout East Africa. Meanwhile a few hundred miles away, the people they are supposed to be representing are literally starving to death. These MPs are currently fighting for a pay-rise.

    Anyway, here is an interview with Kenyan economist James Shikwati on how aid does more harm than good. It's translated from the German magazine SPIEGEL. Interesting read.
    SPIEGEL:
    Mr. Shikwati, the G8 summit at Gleneagles is about to beef up the development aid for Africa...

    Shikwati: ... for God's sake, please just stop.

    SPIEGEL: Stop? The industrialized nations of the West want to eliminate hunger and poverty.

    Shikwati: Such intentions have been damaging our continent for the past 40 years. If the industrial nations really want to help the Africans, they should finally terminate this awful aid. The countries that have collected the most development aid are also the ones that are in the worst shape. Despite the billions that have poured in to Africa, the continent remains poor.

    SPIEGEL: Do you have an explanation for this paradox?

    Shikwati: Huge bureaucracies are financed (with the aid money), corruption and complacency are promoted, Africans are taught to be beggars and not to be independent. In addition, development aid weakens the local markets everywhere and dampens the spirit of entrepreneurship that we so desperately need. As absurd as it may sound: Development aid is one of the reasons for Africa's problems. If the West were to cancel these payments, normal Africans wouldn't even notice. Only the functionaries would be hard hit. Which is why they maintain that the world would stop turning without this development aid.

    SPIEGEL: Even in a country like Kenya, people are starving to death each year. Someone has got to help them.

    Shikwati: But it has to be the Kenyans themselves who help these people. When there's a drought in a region of Kenya, our corrupt politicians reflexively cry out for more help. This call then reaches the United Nations World Food Program -- which is a massive agency of apparatchiks who are in the absurd situation of, on the one hand, being dedicated to the fight against hunger while, on the other hand, being faced with unemployment were hunger actually eliminated. It's only natural that they willingly accept the plea for more help. And it's not uncommon that they demand a little more money than the respective African government originally requested. They then forward that request to their headquarters, and before long, several thousands tons of corn are shipped to Africa ...

    SPIEGEL: ... corn that predominantly comes from highly-subsidized European and American farmers ...

    Shikwati: ... and at some point, this corn ends up in the harbor of Mombasa. A portion of the corn often goes directly into the hands of unsrupulous politicians who then pass it on to their own tribe to boost their next election campaign. Another portion of the shipment ends up on the black market where the corn is dumped at extremely low prices. Local farmers may as well put down their hoes right away; no one can compete with the UN's World Food Program. And because the farmers go under in the face of this pressure, Kenya would have no reserves to draw on if there actually were a famine next year. It's a simple but fatal cycle.

    SPIEGEL: If the World Food Program didn't do anything, the people would starve.

    Shikwati: I don't think so. In such a case, the Kenyans, for a change, would be forced to initiate trade relations with Uganda or Tanzania, and buy their food there. This type of trade is vital for Africa. It would force us to improve our own infrastructure, while making national borders -- drawn by the Europeans by the way -- more permeable. It would also force us to establish laws favoring market economy.

    SPIEGEL: Would Africa actually be able to solve these problems on its own?

    Shikwati: Of course. Hunger should not be a problem in most of the countries south of the Sahara. In addition, there are vast natural resources: oil, gold, diamonds. Africa is always only portrayed as a continent of suffering, but most figures are vastly exaggerated. In the industrial nations, there's a sense that Africa would go under without development aid. But believe me, Africa existed before you Europeans came along. And we didn't do all that poorly either.

    SPIEGEL: But AIDS didn't exist at that time.

    Shikwati: If one were to believe all the horrorifying reports, then all Kenyans should actually be dead by now. But now, tests are being carried out everywhere, and it turns out that the figures were vastly exaggerated. It's not three million Kenyans that are infected. All of the sudden, it's only about one million. Malaria is just as much of a problem, but people rarely talk about that.

    SPIEGEL: And why's that?

    Shikwati: AIDS is big business, maybe Africa's biggest business. There's nothing else that can generate as much aid money as shocking figures on AIDS. AIDS is a political disease here, and we should be very skeptical.

    SPIEGEL: The Americans and Europeans have frozen funds previously pledged to Kenya. The country is too corrupt, they say.

    Shikwati: I am afraid, though, that the money will still be transfered before long. After all, it has to go somewhere. Unfortunately, the Europeans' devastating urge to do good can no longer be countered with reason. It makes no sense whatsoever that directly after the new Kenyan government was elected -- a leadership change that ended the dictatorship of Daniel arap Mois -- the faucets were suddenly opened and streams of money poured into the country.

    SPIEGEL: Such aid is usually earmarked for a specific objective, though.

    Shikwati: That doesn't change anything. Millions of dollars earmarked for the fight against AIDS are still stashed away in Kenyan bank accounts and have not been spent. Our politicians were overwhelmed with money, and they try to siphon off as much as possible. The late tyrant of the Central African Republic, Jean Bedel Bokassa, cynically summed it up by saying: "The French government pays for everything in our country. We ask the French for money. We get it, and then we waste it."


    SPIEGEL: In the West, there are many compassionate citizens wanting to help Africa. Each year, they donate money and pack their old clothes into collection bags ...

    Shikwati: ... and they flood our markets with that stuff. We can buy these donated clothes cheaply at our so-called Mitumba markets. There are Germans who spend a few dollars to get used Bayern Munich or Werder Bremen jerseys, in other words, clothes that that some German kids sent to Africa for a good cause. After buying these jerseys, they auction them off at Ebay and send them back to Germany -- for three times the price. That's insanity ...

    SPIEGEL: ... and hopefully an exception.

    Shikwati: Why do we get these mountains of clothes? No one is freezing here. Instead, our tailors lose their livlihoods. They're in the same position as our farmers. No one in the low-wage world of Africa can be cost-efficient enough to keep pace with donated products. In 1997, 137,000 workers were employed in Nigeria's textile industry. By 2003, the figure had dropped to 57,000. The results are the same in all other areas where overwhelming helpfulness and fragile African markets collide.

    SPIEGEL: Following World War II, Germany only managed to get back on its feet because the Americans poured money into the country through the Marshall Plan. Wouldn't that qualify as successful development aid?

    Shikwati: In Germany's case, only the destroyed infrastructure had to be repaired. Despite the economic crisis of the Weimar Republic, Germany was a highly- industrialized country before the war. The damages created by the tsunami in Thailand can also be fixed with a little money and some reconstruction aid. Africa, however, must take the first steps into modernity on its own. There must be a change in mentality. We have to stop perceiving ourselves as beggars. These days, Africans only perceive themselves as victims. On the other hand, no one can really picture an African as a businessman. In order to change the current situation, it would be helpful if the aid organizations were to pull out.

    SPIEGEL: If they did that, many jobs would be immediately lost ...

    Shikwati: ... jobs that were created artificially in the first place and that distort reality. Jobs with foreign aid organizations are, of course, quite popular, and they can be very selective in choosing the best people. When an aid organization needs a driver, dozens apply for the job. And because it's unacceptable that the aid worker's chauffeur only speaks his own tribal language, an applicant is needed who also speaks English fluently -- and, ideally, one who is also well mannered. So you end up with some African biochemist driving an aid worker around, distributing European food, and forcing local farmers out of their jobs. That's just crazy!

    SPIEGEL: The German government takes pride in precisely monitoring the recipients of its funds.

    Shikwati: And what's the result? A disaster. The German government threw money right at Rwanda's president Paul Kagame. This is a man who has the deaths of a million people on his conscience -- people that his army killed in the neighboring country of Congo.

    SPIEGEL: What are the Germans supposed to do?

    Shikwati: If they really want to fight poverty, they should completely halt development aid and give Africa the opportunity to ensure its own survival. Currently, Africa is like a child that immediately cries for its babysitter when something goes wrong. Africa should stand on its own two feet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,490 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    http://www.politics.ie/forum/foreign-affairs/135015-fianna-fail-tullow-oil-uganda.html

    Over a year ago the story of Uganda, Irish Aid, Michael Martin and Tullow Oil was raised at the above link.

    I think it's a fact that govt aid from any country is partially linked to business interests, a 'clean' way of greasing palms maybe?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 400 ✭✭Broads.ie


    So instead of everybody complaining about this here, can we all send an email to Irish Aid asking them to confirm/deny/comment/whatever??


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Listen, if I had two neighbours who were alcos, and they spent all their money on booze, and their kids were starving, I like to think I'd help to feed the kids.
    If someone then pointed out that my help for the kids was enabling the parents, you know what I'd do? I'd feed them anyway. Personally, I don't think it's ok to let the kids starve to teach the parents a lesson. So I couldn't really give a fcuk what the government of uganda does. If there are starving people in the country, and we can help feed them, then feed them, and fcuk the begrudgers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    tbh wrote: »
    Listen, if I had two neighbours who were alcos, and they spent all their money on booze, and their kids were starving, I like to think I'd help to feed the kids.
    If someone then pointed out that my help for the kids was enabling the parents, you know what I'd do? I'd feed them anyway. Personally, I don't think it's ok to let the kids starve to teach the parents a lesson. So I couldn't really give a fcuk what the government of uganda does. If there are starving people in the country, and we can help feed them, then feed them, and fcuk the begrudgers.

    not the best analogy - you're not feeding the kids, you are handing the money to the parents to spend on booze, and 20 fags to go with it if they'd like.

    i'd much prefer NGO's to get the cash who have a remit to go straight in at ground level and at least try to get the money directly to where it's needed. handing the money to the Ugandan government and telling them to spend it wisely is a bit like handing a fiver to an 8 year old and telling them to spend it on socks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    not the best analogy - you're not feeding the kids, you are handing the money to the parents to spend on booze, and 20 fags to go with it if they'd like.

    no I'm not, I'm buying food for the kids. That's what Irish Aid do as well, they are a direct funder, not a government funder. They don't hand the money to the government, they fund projects directly, that's why they say the money is ring-fenced against corruption. All of those facts are easily verifiable, if you could be bothered - but of course, you're coming to this issue with your mind already made up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73 ✭✭s20101938


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Nope IMH he's a troll, a troll that sells papers. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. In this case he's just about telling the right time, but mostly not so much or his arguments can be easily picked apart.

    lol@ this rubbish. Go ahead pick his arguments apart then! Every time a Myers thread comes up here you get lots of people attacking him about how extreme he is and how much of a troll, but they never actually address his points. He's right, that's why. In this case you grudgingly concede it with "just about", rather than admit it. But Boards is populated by arrogant aggressive liberals preaching their all knowing superior dogma so what would you expect?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    tbh wrote: »
    no I'm not, I'm buying food for the kids. That's what Irish Aid do as well, they are a direct funder, not a government funder. They don't hand the money to the government, they fund projects directly, that's why they say the money is ring-fenced against corruption. All of those facts are easily verifiable, if you could be bothered - but of course, you're coming to this issue with your mind already made up.

    yes, I have my mind made up.

    66% of the money goes directly to the government - that's a fact. and it's 'ringfenced against corruption'? i call bulls'hit.

    these people would prefer to spend 535m on fighter jets than feed their own citizens - again, that's a fact? how do you expect them to learn ffs? the point here is that how will they ever become self sustainable unless hard lessons are learn. to continue your analogy - some day the kids will grow up (the ones who are still alive at least) and exchange the booze for the essentials and ensure the parents stay off the booze. that's what's needed here: the people to take back the power, not be under the thumb of an obviously misguided and corrupt government.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 746 ✭✭✭skregs


    You guys know you can disagree with KM's opinions without accusing him of being racist or whatever, right?

    Anyway, I personally disagree with the stance of Irish Aid, but its a far more complex issue than a 2,000 word newspaper article can describe.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 137 ✭✭lagente


    Worth viewing article on this 'developing country': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Uganda
    and a sad but hilarious video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjnrLt3VuSM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 400 ✭✭Broads.ie


    So has anybody emailed Irish Aid?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    s20101938 wrote: »
    But Boards is populated by arrogant aggressive liberals preaching their all knowing superior dogma so what would you expect?
    Jeez dial back there Ted, if you think me of all people is a liberal :) you're soooo on the wrong tack.
    tbh wrote:
    Listen, if I had two neighbours who were alcos, and they spent all their money on booze, and their kids were starving, I like to think I'd help to feed the kids.
    If someone then pointed out that my help for the kids was enabling the parents, you know what I'd do? I'd feed them anyway. Personally, I don't think it's ok to let the kids starve to teach the parents a lesson. So I couldn't really give a fcuk what the government of uganda does. If there are starving people in the country, and we can help feed them, then feed them, and fcuk the begrudgers
    Or you know, rather than accept a crappy situation punish the parents enough to force them to feed their kids or simply remove the parents and feed the kids directly. Giving, no wasting money on the parents hoping that something trickles down to the kids is dafter than the letterheads in the Boards.ie office. Wooly headed thinking at it's best. Thinking that has left large chunks of Africa charity wells and that's really bloody disrespectful of the Africans themselves.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭lastlaugh


    tbh wrote: »
    Listen, if I had two neighbours who were alcos, and they spent all their money on booze, and their kids were starving, I like to think I'd help to feed the kids.
    If someone then pointed out that my help for the kids was enabling the parents, you know what I'd do? I'd feed them anyway. Personally, I don't think it's ok to let the kids starve to teach the parents a lesson. So I couldn't really give a fcuk what the government of uganda does. If there are starving people in the country, and we can help feed them, then feed them, and fcuk the begrudgers.

    That's very nice of you to think of your neighbours kids as you do in the above analogy. As far as I'm concerned, you can give all your money to them.
    But I would have a very large problem if you started giving them my money, or my wifes money, especially if we were in need ourselves.

    It strikes me as completely bonkers to give 'aid' to a country that seems to have enough money to buy itself state of the art weaponry.

    Maybe all of 'Irish Aids' massive budget should be used to sort things out here for the next few years.

    Regarding Myers himself, I think he has raised a good point again. Some people are too quick to dismiss what he says based purely on his previous opinions, which you must recognize as a little bit stupid...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Giving, no wasting money on the parents hoping that something trickles down to the kids is dafter than the letterheads in the Boards.ie office. .

    well played. had to think about it for a minute.


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