The unwanted

twinQuins · 13-08-2011 04:55PM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

[...]Expel would be a more accurate word. Find another country or go to prison for good. Leave it to them to find an alternative country.

Okay but considering that they have no passport and no nationality I'd like you to tell me how, exactly, they would go about doing that.

Fremen · 13-08-2011 05:04PM

That is a fúcking brilliant idea! Just send them to another country!

While we're at it, let's build some nuclear plants and ship the waste to another country! Export our debts to another country!

It's a flawless plan. Yep, cannot see one single flaw.

JuliusCaesar · 13-08-2011 05:05PM

Stinicker wrote: »

I suggest we depot them to Somalia, which is effectively a no-mans land with no functioning Government, last time we did this by sending convicts to Van Diemans Land it turned out very well. Somalia could be colonised by our unwanted and after a few decades of them oppressing the "native savages" like happened in Australia with the aboriginies you'd get a nice new civilised country.

From here:

The total Tasmanian Aborigines population was estimated at between 5000 - 10,000 people at the time of European settlement in 1803. However due to persecution and disease from the white settlers and Australian convicts the population dwindled to less than 300 by 1833. The entire Tasmanian Aboriginal population was then moved to Flinders Island where the population sadly continued to decrease. The last remaining full-blooded Tasmanian Aborigine is generally agreed to be Truganini who died in 1876

MagicSean · 13-08-2011 05:05PM

twinQuins wrote: »

Okay but considering that they have no passport and no nationality I'd like you to tell me how, exactly, they would go about doing that.

I already conceded that they should be allowed keep their citizenship if it is their sole citizenship. It would make the whole thing easier to implement, requiring only a small constitutional ammendment and piece of legislation.

Fremen · 13-08-2011 05:11PM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Well in that we are in agreement. Simple posession in small quantity, tv licence, civil debts, dog licence. None of these should come near prison. But I would doubt there is that many of them. I've yet to see one person being sent to prison for any of them.

Ok, let me drop the sarcasm. Just because an idea pops into your head, it doesn't follow that the idea is a good idea.

Out of interest, have you ever actually looked at prison statistics?

twinQuins · 13-08-2011 05:15PM

So, they keep their citizenship but are expelled... where? How? Who will take them? What incentive would be offered; basically, why would they take them?
What kind of status would they have? They're not refugees and they're not asylum seekers so would you be willing to create a whole new class under international law? How would you convince the international community to do so?

Let's say no country is willing to take them, what then? Jail?

MagicSean · 13-08-2011 05:26PM

Fremen wrote: »

Ok, let me drop the sarcasm. Just because an idea pops into your head, it doesn't follow that the idea is a good idea.

Out of interest, have you ever actually looked at prison statistics?

No. I had difficulty finding useful statistics on this matter. My opinion is based on personal experience.

twinQuins wrote: »

So, they keep their citizenship but are expelled... where? How? Who will take them? What incentive would be offered; basically, why would they take them?
What kind of status would they have? They're not refugees and they're not asylum seekers so would you be willing to create a whole new class under international law? How would you convince the international community to do so?

Let's say no country is willing to take them, what then? Jail?

You don't need a new class under international law. The judge gives the convicted criminal an option. Leave the country or go to jail for life. i think you are overcomplicating the matter. If they retain their citizenship they can travel freely to another EU country for one thing.

odnauq · 13-08-2011 05:30PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

We should build camps in the countryside where they'd all have to do hard labour, and be made to concentrate hard on everything they've done, concentrate on the crimes they've committed, concentrate on why they became scumbags and so forth.

I wonder what we could call these camps...

They were called Industrial Schools

Fremen · 13-08-2011 05:34PM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

No. I had difficulty finding useful statistics on this matter. My opinion is based on random guesswork.

Here you go. Note that about 25 - 30% of prison commitals are for non-payment of fines (edit: and road traffic offences).

My name is URL · 13-08-2011 05:40PM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

It appears you are attempting to make some reference to the holocaust. I would hope not because I would consider it disgusting if you were to compare the persecution of the Jews to the punishment of convicted criminals.

It happens quite a bit. Read any local newspaper on any given week and you'll see mention of somebody being in court for non-payment of a fine/tax/licence fee. It's not just the courts time that is wasted.. the Gardai could be doing better things than acting as debt collectors for the state.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/3500-jailed-for-not-paying-fines-2042095.html

twinQuins · 13-08-2011 05:43PM

First off, expulsion implies a certain level of coercion which is where assigning them some new class under international law comes from. If they're being forced to leave their country and cannot return... well, it's not very clear cut.
Now, let's say for whatever reason they have to be deported from the country they go to, what then? Just ship them off to another country?

What if your new law doesn't fall under freedom of movement (let's say, for the sake of argument, due to the fact that they're doing so under duress)?

You may think I'm overcomplicating this but I think you just haven't fully thought it through.

Sonnenblumen · 13-08-2011 05:52PM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

It appears you are attempting to make some reference to the holocaust. I would hope not because I would consider it disgusting if you were to compare the persecution of the Jews to the punishment of convicted criminals.

It appears you're thinking through your ass.

Fremen · 13-08-2011 05:54PM

For the record, the UK tried something like this in the past, as did the Russians (but with far nastier consequences).

MagicSean · 13-08-2011 06:18PM

My name is URL wrote: »

It happens quite a bit. Read any local newspaper on any given week and you'll see mention of somebody being in court for non-payment of a fine/tax/licence fee. It's not just the courts time that is wasted.. the Gardai could be doing better things than acting as debt collectors for the state.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/3500-jailed-for-not-paying-fines-2042095.html

Non payment of fines which follow a criminal conviction are handled by Gardaí and result in prison time and deservedly so in my opinion. A fine upon conviction is an option. Pay cash or go to jail. If a person chooses jail instead of payment I can't see the problem in this. I don't see it as a waste either. What is the alternative?

twinQuins wrote: »

First off, expulsion implies a certain level of coercion which is where assigning them some new class under international law comes from. If they're being forced to leave their country and cannot return... well, it's not very clear cut.
Now, let's say for whatever reason they have to be deported from the country they go to, what then? Just ship them off to another country?

What if your new law doesn't fall under freedom of movement (let's say, for the sake of argument, due to the fact that they're doing so under duress)?

You may think I'm overcomplicating this but I think you just haven't fully thought it through.

If I was told I could go to jail or leave the country I would not consider myself to be coerced. I would be delighted with the opportunity to avoid prison. I'm not saying their wouldn't be some hurdles in the implementation but I don't see why that should bar its consideration.

Your talking about shipping them off. I'm talking about giving them a choice. Do your time or leave the country. If your that big of a scumbag that you can't find a country willing to take you then you belong in jail.

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

It appears you're thinking through your ass.

Are you going to deny it was a reference to the holocaust or are insults and vague criticisms the extent of your intellectual capacity?

Fremen wrote: »

For the record, the UK tried something like this in the past, as did the Russians (but with far nastier consequences).

Australia is doing ok for itself.

Fremen · 13-08-2011 06:20PM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Australia is doing ok for itself.

Never said it wasn't. Siberia, on the other hand, not so much.

My name is URL · 13-08-2011 06:24PM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Non payment of fines which follow a criminal conviction are handled by Gardaí and result in prison time and deservedly so in my opinion. A fine upon conviction is an option. Pay cash or go to jail. If a person chooses jail instead of payment I can't see the problem in this. I don't see it as a waste either. What is the alternative?

There's plenty of alternatives. Community service being the most obvious. Do you not see the idiocy in sending somebody to jail at a cost of €100,000 per year for not paying a €1,000 fine?

MagicSean · 13-08-2011 06:26PM

My name is URL wrote: »

There's plenty of alternatives. Community service being the most obvious. Do you not see the idiocy in sending somebody to jail at a cost of €100,000 per year for not paying a €1,000 fine?

And if they don't do the community service?

4Sheets · 13-08-2011 09:13PM

Think its over? Its not it will fester,,the olympics could be a dodgy affair.I know a country that could take them? Ireland why not.we are the basketcases beholden to the EU and the UK and the IMF!!.I have a feeling Brixton was torched for reason and the rebuild will be a modern area prob high rent..

Hot off the press..new UK gangsta rap..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9iBIy_YASI

Logical Fallacy · 13-08-2011 10:18PM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Yet you continue to read and post on it.

Well of course, the title was pretty innocuous, so i had me a look see to find out who, or what, was this "unwanted".

And if i didn't imply how moronic the essence of your thread was I was pretty certain you wouldn't be able to work it out on your own.

Thankfully there are more than a few people trying to point out the folly of your half baked mental excretion so this thread is actually restoring my faith somewhat.

stovelid · 13-08-2011 10:25PM

Cut off benefits to rioters is also a top idea.

That way they'll finally just instantly get a well-paid professional job and not resort to even more criminality to earn money.

D1stant · 13-08-2011 10:28PM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

If I was told I could go to jail or leave the country I would not consider myself to be coerced. I would be delighted with the opportunity to avoid prison.

Gods speed

Eric Cartman · 14-08-2011 08:26PM

you didnt leave me another poll option "deport any foreign national convicted of any crime mandating any prison time"

Feeona · 14-08-2011 08:37PM

twinQuins wrote: »

I can't even imagine the legal and bureaucratic nightmare that would come of having a bunch of people with no nationality.

Stephen Spielberg's wonderfully twee movie The Terminal would never have been made if he thought the same :mad:

Sonnenblumen · 14-08-2011 11:19PM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Are you going to deny it was a reference to the holocaust or are insults and vague criticisms the extent of your intellectual capacity?

Train = Holocaust? Did you go to a beag school?

goat2 · 17-08-2011 01:22PM

stovelid wrote: »

Cut off benefits to rioters is also a top idea.

That way they'll finally just instantly get a well-paid professional job and not resort to even more criminality to earn money.

i think the best they can do, is say, cut back the amount of dole so as to pay for damage, and up the ante on tossing out of houses put up by the taxpayer in the first place, i do think that it would be a great preventetive measure if they thought that they would lose the cushy free living, at the expense of hardworking people, if it was an automatic expulsion from council housing on event of being charged with asbos, stealing, or causing general meyhem in neighbourhood

pconn062 · 17-08-2011 01:32PM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Following on from the riot thread and to a lesser extent the death penalty one, there's been talk of evicting tenants from council houses if they were involved in the riots. I can't really see the long term benefit in this strategy. Those people cannot support themselves and will either be given another home by another council or will live on the streets. You might think they deserve it and you could be right. But if you put that aside is it not a situation were you are just shifting the problem around the country indefinitely? If a family is determined to be ***** wherever they go will eviction make any difference?

So I was wondering, should there be a system whereby citizenship can be revoked and a person can be expelled from the country? I'm talking about repeat offenders with multiple convictions who do nothing but drain society, either by robbing others or taking up prison spaces. It could also be implemented as an alternative to the death penalty.

Basically it's a matter of saying "We as a society do not want you in our community anymore. You can leave the country for good or spend the rest of your life in solitary confinement."

Is this to be an Irish policy or policy in all countries?? Cause if all countries introduced this surely Ireland would be full of scumbags from England and France and everywhere that were deported from their own countries doing their crime over here instead??

Magic Beans · 17-08-2011 01:36PM

But we already are...

goat2 · 17-08-2011 02:58PM

pconn062 wrote: »

Is this to be an Irish policy or policy in all countries?? Cause if all countries introduced this surely Ireland would be full of scumbags from England and France and everywhere that were deported from their own countries doing their crime over here instead??

then we should be like other countries, that if you commit offence in another country, that you are returned back to where you came from, that would be another deterrent, as they would lose the right to travel, and it be recorder in all countries

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 17-08-2011 02:59PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why would other countries want your scumbags?

A country by the name of Australia...

howamidifferent · 17-08-2011 03:02PM

Magic Beans wrote: »

Great idea. :rolleyes: How can they leave the country with a passport? Who will take them?

I hear some place called Van Deimens land will take 'em.

The unwanted

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