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Download Illegally? You're no better than the looters.

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Comments

  • #152
    Ironman76
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Ironman76


    How ironic is it that every blu ray and dvd I BUY these days has that anti piracy ad "you wouldnt steal a handbag, you wouldnt steal a car etc etc" . .worse still, youre forced to watch them on some (cant fast forward etc).

    I BOUGHT THE F**KING THING ! ! ! WHAT ARE YOU TELLING ME FOR ? ?


  • #153
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Ironman76 wrote: »
    How ironic is it that every blu ray and dvd I BUY these days has that anti piracy ad "you wouldnt steal a handbag, you wouldnt steal a car etc etc" . .worse still, youre forced to watch them on some (cant fast forward etc).

    I BOUGHT THE F**KING THING ! ! ! WHAT ARE YOU TELLING ME FOR ? ?

    if you buy it then you can legally download it off a torrent site without all the hassle unskippable ads.


  • #154
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    I did, and there are plenty of people implying why it's not really "illegal"...it's not theft, it's just copying etc.

    Next time you feel like mounting that high horse of yours i strongly suggest you don't...you missed the saddle on this occasion.

    There's a big difference between saying "its not theft, its copying" and "its legal". Something is either legal or not and this is not. I havent seen anyone saying its legal. Some people have argued that although illegal its not morally wrong.

    I apologise for getting on my high horse though. It was rather ignorant of me. But the argument is not as simple as you say.


  • #155
    Ironman76
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Ironman76


    Aidric wrote: »
    What if, against all odds, you're putting a bin through the window of Carphone warehouse whilst listening to Phil Collins on your headphones?

    Would reach a certain level of "Epicness" if the bin was f**ked through just as the drum beat in In The Air Tonight played.

    As opposed to Groovy Kind of Love. . .


  • #156
    LighterGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,243 ✭✭✭LighterGuy


    Hypocrissy.
    That sums up this debate. Obviously dvd's and blu-rays were looted in the riots.

    Average persons view of the the looting in the riots is that it was wrong and those people should be arrested... however said person has no issue with going to some torrent site and downloading the same movies that we're looted.

    I myself download. But you know what? I call a spade, a spade. I dont try to justify it, i dont twist it as most do. "ah aure its not stealing" - "its different" - "im copying not stealing!" etc :rolleyes: ... rather than saying you know what if downloading is illegal, its illegal. Same "twisters" who say its copying not stealing would have an issue if you make a perfect copy of their pc drive (which contains pics, personal information etc etc) they would soon have a different view of "copying vs stealing" :rolleyes:


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  • #157
    Toby Take a Bow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Toby Take a Bow


    Skunkle wrote: »
    There's a big difference between saying "its not theft, its copying" and "its legal". Something is either legal or not and this is not. I havent seen anyone saying its legal. Some people have argued that although illegal its not morally wrong.

    I apologise for getting on my high horse though. It was rather ignorant of me. But the argument is not as simple as you say.

    It's illegal but clearly not as bad as burning down a furniture shop, thus depriving someone of any possible future income (regardless of insurance and the like).

    A friend copied me an album by a band she thought I'd like. I did, and have since spent probably around 100/150 euro on this band, and will continue to spend more if/when they release more stuff. Had she not (illegally) copied the album, I doubt I'd ever have found out about them. As a poster said above, sometimes downloading can increase overall sales.

    When I download something, and I like it, I will normally buy it (yes, I really do that). I also download albums where I already have it on a different format, so that I can listen to it on my ipod.


  • #158
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,752 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    LighterGuy wrote: »
    Hypocrissy.
    That sums up this debate. Obviously dvd's and blu-rays were looted in the riots.

    Average persons view of the the looting in the riots is that it was wrong and those people should be arrested... however said person has no issue with going to some torrent site and downloading the same movies that we're looted.

    I myself download. But you know what? I call a spade, a spade. I dont try to justify it, i dont twist it as most do. "ah aure its not stealing" - "its different" - "im copying not stealing!" etc :rolleyes: ... rather than saying you know what if downloading is illegal, its illegal. Same "twisters" who say its copying not stealing would have an issue if you make a perfect copy of their pc drive (which contains pics, personal information etc etc) they would soon have a different view of "copying vs stealing" :rolleyes:

    Copying is illegal yes, but is it theft? no. Nor is it breaking and entering or criminal damage. You wouldn't be tried for theft for downloading films you would be tried for copyright infringement afaik? so if that's the case they are different but both illegal.


  • #159
    IamtheWalrus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,075 ✭✭✭IamtheWalrus


    wild_cat wrote: »
    We never actually take the original though. When looting you actually remove the item. We just copy. :)

    If you steal a 42" tv, you are just stealing a copy.



    Didn't read full thread so whatever if said before.


  • #160
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,752 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    IamtheWalrus wrote: »
    If you steal a 42" tv, you are just stealing a copy.

    What like a pretend one?


  • #161
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Major issue with copyright is there has never been a way to validate the previous copyright you already paid for. Some us bought records and then we bought the cd of the same album. No allowance has ever been made for the copyright payment already made. We were double charged. They have done this with various format changes.

    On top of that you get region price distortion which is intentionally put in to charge people different amounts.

    Distribution costs have gone down yet they charge us as if they still have this cost. Games, Music, book and film companies have been cheating the public and abused copyright laws in order to sell you the same thing more than once. Copyright law is unjust and been extended. Morally extortion and theft has taken part on both sides. Not only that the copyright owners get fleeced by such companies so they aren't playing fair in any way.


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  • #162
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Copying is illegal yes, but is it theft? no. Nor is it breaking and entering or criminal damage. You wouldn't be tried for theft for downloading films you would be tried for copyright infringement afaik? so if that's the case they are different but both illegal.


    That's not the point being made.

    It's that people who try and justify illegal downloading by claiming it's not really morally wrong are just kidding themselves.

    If you're going to illegally download something, don't pretend that it's a victimless crime - it's not. Embrace you're inner hoodie but promise yourself you'll try to be a better person in the future.


  • #163
    Bipolar Joe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭Bipolar Joe


    The money you buy the CD with goes to pay the people who made the CD, the (Admittedly tiny) overheads, the chick who works behind the desk, blah blah blah. Not all of the money goes towards some asshole in a suit and the musicians, everyone involved in the process has to get paid.


  • #164
    twinQuins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭twinQuins


    black francis wrote: »
    That's not necessarily what theft implies - you've only defined it that way to suit your argument Theft could mean that you're denying them the profit from the sale of the widget

    I don't know of any legal definition that resembles that. In fact, according to this (Wikipedia, I know, I know) "the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use." is a core part.

    EDIT: Huh, I suppose you could say generating a profit is its use but then you run into the shaky territory of how many of those copies were actual lost sales.
    Obviously they did.


    You shouldn't have taken my original comments so seriously. What you've said is essentially the point I was making - I'm glad we're agreed on that.
    No, we're not agreed. You said there would be stagnation - I disagree. Those who seek solely to make a profit would stop but all innovation would not come to a halt.

    If that's not what you meant then you shouldn't have said so.
    Please explain how.
    Well when you can design one widget and live the rest of your days off the profits of it because you own the copyright for it until the end of your life you're not going to be disposed to developing anything new.
    Of course, other people will design new widgets but since the whole purpose of IP laws is to increase creativity it's become somewhat self-defeating.


  • #165
    veryangryman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Bipolar Joe wrote: »
    The money you buy the CD with goes to pay the people who made the CD, the (Admittedly tiny) overheads, the chick who works behind the desk, blah blah blah. Not all of the money goes towards some asshole in a suit and the musicians, everyone involved in the process has to get paid.

    Downloading cuts out the middle men.

    Ergo we dont need to worry about them having all that extra work.

    Man i LOVE downloading. Im going to download some songs i dont even like after reading this thread.


  • #166
    Loanshark Blues
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 96 ✭✭Loanshark Blues


    I don't think it's the same at all. I studied law in college for a year and we were always told to refrain from considering things in pure black and white terms, and encouraged to look at everything in sort of a grey area.

    Also, Stephen Fry's talk on illegal downloading makes a lot of sense..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCk9Cheiqqg&feature=related


  • #167
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    twinQuins wrote: »
    I don't know of any legal definition that resembles that. In fact, according to this (Wikipedia, I know, I know) "the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use." is a core part..

    Selling something for profit is a use. Thefore you have denied him that right.
    twinQuins wrote: »
    No, we're not agreed. You said there would be stagnation - I disagree. Those who seek solely to make a profit would stop but all innovation would not come to a halt.

    If that's not what you meant then you shouldn't have said so..

    TBH, I'm not sure what the argument around this point is about anymore - you've already admitted that stagnation would result so it just seems to be about the extent of this stagnation - which neither of us have a clue about.
    twinQuins wrote: »
    Well when you can design one widget and live the rest of your days off the profits of it because you own the copyright for it until the end of your life you're not going to be disposed to developing anything new.
    Of course, other people will design new widgets but since the whole purpose of IP laws is to increase creativity it's become somewhat self-defeating.


    So basically your argument is that you want to stop inventive people making profit from thier inventions so that they will keep inventing stuff?

    Hmmmm - doesn't make much sense when you think about it.

    Why would you be encouraged to keep inventing stuff if you know there was no money in it?


  • #168
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    People will pay for good services

    While the people on boards are pretty confident with computers not everyone is
    So itunes store is ridiculously easy to use and people will pay for it

    I pay NFL.com a few hundred euro to watch the American football, there are free streams but quality and the service is worth paying for.

    Even downloading films over the xbox live is good though very expensive.

    Give me a superior solution and I'd consider paying for it.

    But when Europe gets films five months after the USA and boxsets come out six months after the series ended then you're not leaving a lot of options

    I wanted to see The Blind Side, Oscar winning film, out in November in America and February in Europe. Any wonder people download them, executives have themselves to blame


  • #169
    Bipolar Joe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭Bipolar Joe


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCk9Cheiqqg


  • #170
    Borat_Sagdiyev
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 589 ✭✭✭Borat_Sagdiyev


    Is downloading theft? No.

    Is downloading illegal? Yes. But why? IMO it is to prolong a dying industry. Record companies know their days are numbered - there is no need for them. Artists / bands can make their own albums with homemade studios put together with a fraction of what it used to cost ( my first cousin is a singer / songwriter and sells his own CDs himself ).

    These companies have a lot to answer for. Look at the absolute rubbish in the charts. What I like to call "Copy and Paste music". New artists coming along every day of the week that have maybe taken a sample of a song from 70s/80s/90s and attempted some rubbish rap on top of it. Simon Cowell with his moneymaking scam. TV Talent show -> ensure it looks schnazzy to kids -> big ratings -> sign winner / close runner up -> release album -> Make millions -> repeat.

    Where is this generation's U2 ( early stuff obviously :) ) / Bowie / Sting / Frank Sinatra / etc... ?

    Does anyone seriously think we'll still be listening to Justin fúckin Beiber in 20 years time? Or Lady Gaga? Christ give me strength.

    Same goes for the film industry, christ making me pay the bones of €20 for 1 popcorn, 1 coke, and a godawful film. More fool me for paying to see it. I will gladly pay money to go and watch a decent flick ( can't wait for next summer's Batman ).

    Am I doing wrong? Yes. Do I care? Meh.


  • #171
    IamtheWalrus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,075 ✭✭✭IamtheWalrus


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    What like a pretend one?

    I was going to ignore you until someone thanked your post.

    My point is: people say by downloading a song, you are only taking a copy. But it's the same for TV. You are still only taking a copy of the original. The TV can be recreated. It's not like stealing a polaroid photo taken in the 60's.


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  • #172
    twinQuins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭twinQuins


    black francis wrote: »
    Selling something for profit is a use. Thefore you have denied him that right.

    I was just thinking as I was editing the post that this would happen, goddamnit...

    Anway, as I said there you run into the problem of how many of those were actually lost sales.
    TBH, I'm not sure what the argument around this point is about anymore - you've already admitted that stagnation would result so it just seems to be about the extent of this stagnation - which neither of us have a clue about.

    Well my reading of what you originally wrote was that all innovation would cease - if that was wrong then I apologise.
    So basically your argument is that you want to stop inventive people making profit from thier inventions so that they will keep inventing stuff?

    Hardly. Rather, there should be a return to the previous limits on how long they can profit off each invention, otherwise, as I've said, you get stagnation from people riding out the profits of one invention.
    As well as that how many are put off from creating works that are in whole or in part derivative because of copyright terms.

    IP laws are necessary (probably should have said that in the post) but the term for which an entity now holds a copyright has become excessive.
    Why would you be encouraged to keep inventing stuff if you know there was no money in it?

    Why would you be encouraged to keep inventing if you knew you only had to invent once to keep you in money for life?

    There is a balance to be struck and right now the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of copyright holders.


  • #173
    Bipolar Joe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭Bipolar Joe


    IamtheWalrus wrote: »
    I was going to ignore you until someone thanked your post.

    My point is: people say by downloading a song, you are only taking a copy. But it's the same for TV. You are still only taking a copy of the original. The TV can be recreated. It's not like stealing a polaroid photo taken in the 60's.

    You aren't TAKING a copy, you are MAKING a copy.


  • #174
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Borat_Sagdiyev wrote: »
    Is downloading theft? No.

    Is downloading illegal? Yes. But why? IMO it is to prolong a dying industry. Record companies know their days are numbered - there is no need for them. Artists / bands can make their own albums with homemade studios put together with a fraction of what it used to cost ( my first cousin is a singer / songwriter and sells his own CDs himself ).
    .


    Well, next time you meet him ask him how he would feel if someone uploaded his cd to a file-sharing website.
    What if nobody bought any copies of the cd he's currently selling because all his 'fans' have previously illegally downloaded it?


  • #175
    IamtheWalrus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,075 ✭✭✭IamtheWalrus


    Bipolar Joe wrote: »
    You aren't TAKING a copy, you are MAKING a copy.

    Did you just yell at me? :(


  • #176
    Bipolar Joe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭Bipolar Joe


    black francis wrote: »
    Well, next time you meet him ask him how he would feel if someone uploaded his cd to a file-sharing website.
    What if nobody bought any copies of the cd he's currently selling because all his 'fans' have previously illegally downloaded it?

    A couple of my albums are on blogs, I am OK with this. I sold more since they were put on there than I did before.
    IamtheWalrus wrote: »
    Did you just yell at me?

    I would never, I am far too mild-fucking-mannered for that. I was putting emphasis on the words to show the difference.


  • #177
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    What like a pretend one?

    No. A copy of the original prototype.


  • #178
    Borat_Sagdiyev
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 589 ✭✭✭Borat_Sagdiyev


    black francis wrote: »
    Well, next time you meet him ask him how he would feel if someone uploaded his cd to a file-sharing website.
    What if nobody bought any copies of the cd he's currently selling because all his 'fans' have previously illegally downloaded it?

    Well at least then more people would get exposed to his music and he would therefore get more people coming to his gigs which in turn would get him more gigs etc...

    Music was originally about people performing for others to enjoy. Why must everything be about the cash and protecting an outdated system?

    Radiohead's "In Rainbows" album was put on their website for download. You could download it for free if you wanted to - it went on to become their most successful album since "Kid A".


  • #179
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,752 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    IamtheWalrus wrote: »
    I was going to ignore you until someone thanked your post.

    My point is: people say by downloading a song, you are only taking a copy. But it's the same for TV. You are still only taking a copy of the original. The TV can be recreated. It's not like stealing a polaroid photo taken in the 60's.

    When downloading you're making a copy, not taking one. It's copyright infringement not theft.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    No. A copy of the original prototype.

    Yea I understood but it's not a good analogy.


  • #180
    Simi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,020 ✭✭✭Simi


    Pirating music, films and (especially) tv shows I don't feel bad about.

    I have no intention of ever building a giant DVD/Blu-ray collection, if a film looks worth it I'll go see it in the cinema. Otherwise I'll download it watch it once, then delete it. Just like the xtra-vision rentals of yore.

    There is no way anyone is ever going to convince me it's worth shelling out ridiculous amounts of money for a dvd box set of a show that's on TV, that I can record and watch at my leisure (or more likely download if it airs first in America)!

    Ok music I do feel a little guilty about sometimes, but I maintain if drm free download services, offered the music I want at a reasonable price, I'd use them! ...maybe.

    I used to pirate games but now, primarily due to steam sales, i've stopped that entirely. Getting a game for a reasonable price I can download and play again and again on any pc from now until eternity is quite frankly awesome.

    TL;DR The cure for piracy is valve.


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  • #181
    Parsley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭Parsley


    black francis wrote: »
    Well, next time you meet him ask him how he would feel if someone uploaded his cd to a file-sharing website.
    What if nobody bought any copies of the cd he's currently selling because all his 'fans' have previously illegally downloaded it?

    if it gets more people to his gigs, it's a win. money from a gig would be worth the cost of 10-20 CDs sold, from general experience being in a band. Be lucky to sell a few CDs and maybe a couple t-shirts, for most bands touring Ireland/UK.


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