M17/M18 scheme: should it be built?

Sponge Bob · 21-07-2011 12:41pm #1

I see Noel Grealish is the new Frank Fahey promising roads 'next year' Frankeen style. It is about the height of what i would expect from Grealish. Keaveney, meanwhilem is the new Grealish.

Labour Deputy Colm Keaveney is confident that the government will support proceeding with the Tuam Bypass should the M17 PPP fail to materialise.

Transport Minister Leo Varadkar has also indicated his support for the proposal in the Dáil but stressed that the government intended to pursue the PPP for as long as possible.

It would cost around €30m TOTAL to bypass Tuam AND Claregalway both, most or all of the land for Tuam is bought. Neither can be tolled any more than Enfield was or Kinnegad.

They are the 2 worst bottlenecks between Derry and Limerick as well as a clear and present danger to Roscommon people trying to get to their new A&E on the 'wrong side' of Galway.

Were both those bypasses built I could live with no M17 or a completed M18 as long as they bypassed Clarinbridge some time in the next 5 years....which latter project won't happen for the exact same reason they never drained the Dunkellin since they originally promised to around 1950.

You could even build the Tuam bypass as a single carriageway and mainly with at grade junctions and come back to widening and separating it in future. As it was to be 2+2 you can build the 'middle' 2 lanes first and the rest later.

invinciblePRSTV · 22-07-2011 3:36pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It would cost around €30m TOTAL to bypass Tuam AND Claregalway both, most or all of the land for Tuam is bought. Neither can be tolled any more than Enfield was or Kinnegad.

They are the 2 worst bottlenecks between Derry and Limerick as well as a clear and present danger to Roscommon people trying to get to their new A&E on the 'wrong side' of Galway.

Were both those bypasses built I could live with no M17 or a completed M18 as long as they bypassed Clarinbridge some time in the next 5 years....which latter project won't happen for the exact same reason they never drained the Dunkellin since they originally promised to around 1950.

You could even build the Tuam bypass as a single carriageway and mainly with at grade junctions and come back to widening and separating it in future. As it was to be 2+2 you can build the 'middle' 2 lanes first and the rest later.

Far too much sense been spoken here, why would we build functional low cost bypasses of several bottlenecks when we can engage in crayonism and have a whopping great big blue line running down the sparsely populated west coast (and south east) costing a fortune.

This is Ireland, yet we're building roads like we're in Germany:rolleyes:.

antoobrien · 22-07-2011 4:20pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Far too much sense been spoken here, why would we build functional low cost bypasses of several bottlenecks when we can engage in crayonism and have a whopping great big blue line running down the sparsely populated west coast (and south east) costing a fortune.

Why is it every time we try to futureproof things this drivel comes up? It's this kind of negative thinking & or nimbyism that has left us with a p*ss poor transport system. this project and GCOB seem to get a lot of flack from people who don't have a bloody clue about Galway or have a vested interest is seeing something like this not delivered (anybody with an interest or obsession with PT).

veryangryman · 22-07-2011 4:24pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

This is Ireland, yet we're building roads like we're in Germany:rolleyes:.

Germanys quality road system is one of the main reasons why its a world leader of efficiency. We should focus on getting our infrastructural standards to this level - why not?

"This is Ireland". Elaborate please. Some of us dont have the inferiority complex that you are displaying with that post.

invinciblePRSTV · 22-07-2011 5:15pm

antoobrien wrote: »

Why is it every time we try to futureproof things this drivel comes up? It's this kind of negative thinking & or nimbyism that has left us with a p*ss poor transport system. this project and GCOB seem to get a lot of flack from people who don't have a bloody clue about Galway or have a vested interest is seeing something like this not delivered (anybody with an interest or obsession with PT).

Drivel my hole. The only drivel here is people who seem to think that it's entirely appropriate for every two bit town bottleneck to get a full blown 50km motorway project where modest bypasses of minor towns will do the job instead for a fraction of the cost.

"futureproof" is the most overused and ill thought out phrase on this forum and is used to justify every white elephant motorway project out there. Let's call a spade a spade here and acknowledge that outside the current bottlenecks there isn't much in the way of AADTs to justify prioritising this project ahead of many others around the country with similar AADTs.

veryangryman wrote: »

Germanys quality road system is one of the main reasons why its a world leader of efficiency. We should focus on getting our infrastructural standards to this level - why not?

Fine, lets start aping Germany fully. Let's adopt their stringent planning laws and prevent the M17/18 from becoming what it is going to become, a white elephant commuter motorway which will only be busy at morning and evening rush hour when the Wesht's massively dispersed rural population begin their long distance commute to work by car.

veryangryman wrote: »

"This is Ireland". Elaborate please. Some of us dont have the inferiority complex that you are displaying with that post.

Not worthy of a reply. Both you and antoobrien need to brush up on your manners.

Sponge Bob · 22-07-2011 6:35pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Drivel my hole. The only drivel here is people who seem to think that it's entirely appropriate for every two bit town bottleneck to get a full blown 50km motorway project where modest bypasses of minor towns will do the job instead for a fraction of the cost.

Nobody around here advocates that. We do, however,advocate a high quailty road link between most of our principal cities that does not go via the bloody M50.

The missing link between Arklow and Dublin carries a volume of traffic that justifies a HQDC. It cannot be improved or kicked to touch with one of your bypasses and anyway we bought the land already.

In the case of Tuam - Galway a considerable improvement can be made with 2 bypasses, one the nothernmost section of the motorway project as a standalone and another that is needed WHETHER we build the motorway or not.

The GCOB can then go ahead as a HQDC ....again because there is realistically no way out of or around that and then we can revisit the missing motorway again when we have the funds. We have closed or are busy closing every decent hospital in the West save the one on the west bank of the Corrib in Galway.

But be in no doubt that we do need a motorway from Tuam to Cork ...but luckily some of the worst bottlenecks..Newmarket/Limerick/Gort and Ennis are sorted.

invinciblePRSTV · 22-07-2011 6:55pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Nobody around here advocates that. We do, however,advocate a high quailty road link between most of our principal cities that does not go via the bloody M50.

We have one, It's called the M8-M7-M50-M1 :pac:. I'm not disagreeing that improvements are needed but i believe that in times of limited funding only critical works at bottlenecks, such as solitary bypasses of places like Tuam, Claregalway, Buttevant, Charleville, Tralee, Macroom etc should be prioritised rather then grandiose schemes planned during the bubble era which involve dozens of KMs of DC being built in rural Ireland replacing roads which can adequately handle the traffic which uses it.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The missing link between Arklow and Dublin carries a volume of traffic that justifies a HQDC. It cannot be improved or kicked to touch with one of your bypasses and anyway we bought the land already.

I'm referring to the Oylgate Scheme when i mentioned the SE.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

In the case of Tuam - Galway a considerable improvement can be made with 2 bypasses, one the nothernmost section of the motorway project as a standalone and another that is needed WHETHER we build the motorway or not.

The GCOB can then go ahead as a HQDC ....again because there is realistically no way out of or around that and then we can revisit the missing motorway again when we have the funds. We have closed or are busy closing every decent hospital in the West save the one on the west bank of the Corrib in Galway.

Again i agree. I'm not saying don't build anything, instead i say build whats urgently required in the form of bypasses for the towns listed above and leave the plans for a full blown motorway called the Atlantic Corridor on the drawing board for when the money is there for it and more pressing transport projects have been funded.

Sponge Bob · 22-07-2011 7:08pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

We have one, It's called the M8-M7-M50-M1 :pac:. I'm not disagreeing that improvements are needed but i believe that in times of limited funding only critical works at bottlenecks, such as solitary bypasses of places like Tuam, Claregalway, Buttevant, Charleville, Tralee, Macroom etc should be prioritised rather then grandiose schemes planned during the bubble era which involve dozens of KMs of DC being built in rural Ireland replacing roads which can adequately handle the traffic which uses it.

Charleville need parking enforcement not a bypass. Buttevant,much like Tuam, can only really be sorted by building a section of the M20...possibly in a bundle with a Macroom bypass N22.

Otherwise or together bundle with a northern M20 stub including the Adare bypass N21.

I'm referring to the Oylgate Scheme when i mentioned the SE.

I think the M11 should end north of Enniscorthy with nothing bar 2+2 from there to Rosslare ( if even that) . Here is why but it is a bit marginal for S2 with a fair bit of goods traffic.

So yeah, rather than shout at everyone perhaps extract 2+2 / s2 or even short M grade schemes that would make a large difference in a region like Cork and bundle them.

Then prioritise these bundles nationally. We will prioritise nothing by grandstanding and ad hominememating

highlydebased · 23-07-2011 1:14pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

then grandiose schemes planned during the bubble era which involve dozens of KMs of DC being built in rural Ireland replacing roads which can adequately handle the traffic which uses it.

d.

Couldn't disagree more. So do you think the current N20 or N18 (post gort) is adequate? Far from it

KevR · 23-07-2011 2:24pm

Solitary bypasses for towns/villages on the N18 between Oranmore and Gort will not be acceptable.

Good overtaking opportunities are almost non-existent meaning slow drivers cause havoc. Journey times are unacceptable considering this is road the road that links our 3rd and 4th cities.

Even if the N18 isn't full to capacity, the M18 is still essential. Journey times need to be excellent and fully predictable/reliable between two key economic hubs (and Shannon Airport).

invinciblePRSTV · 23-07-2011 3:18pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Charleville need parking enforcement not a bypass. Buttevant,much like Tuam, can only really be sorted by building a section of the M20...possibly in a bundle with a Macroom bypass N22.

Otherwise or together bundle with a northern M20 stub including the Adare bypass N21.

The bundling of bypasses together is a good shout, it's certainly a far more fair and cost effective solution for a nation state such as ours given the fiscal situation, it's not feasible to put important bypasses on the long finger to build a predominantly rural scheme such as the M17/18.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I think the M11 should end north of Enniscorthy with nothing bar 2+2 from there to Rosslare ( if even that) . Here is why but it is a bit marginal for S2 with a fair bit of goods traffic.

So yeah, rather than shout at everyone perhaps extract 2+2 / s2 or even short M grade schemes that would make a large difference in a region like Cork and bundle them.

Agreed.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Then prioritise these bundles nationally. We will prioritise nothing by grandstanding and ad hominememating

Indeed, Hopefully veryangryman & antoobrien will be less emotional and use their heads when posting in future.

highlydebased wrote: »

Couldn't disagree more. So do you think the current N20 or N18 (post gort) is adequate? Far from it

Clearly I didn't say such a thing.

KevR wrote: »

Solitary bypasses for towns/villages on the N18 between Oranmore and Gort will not be acceptable.

Not acceptable to whom? why should the wesht get a luxury project like the M17/18 whilst there is no money elsewhere for simple bypasses of equal/greater importance?

KevR wrote: »

Good overtaking opportunities are almost non-existent meaning slow drivers cause havoc. Journey times are unacceptable considering this is road the road that links our 3rd and 4th cities.

What about the road that links our 2nd and 3rd cities? or 2nd and 4th? or 3rd and 5th? why should the M17/18 get priority? My solution and the one argued by spongebob is far more equitable and is appropriate seeing as the money just isn't there.

KevR wrote: »

Even if the N18 isn't full to capacity, the M18 is still essential. Journey times need to be excellent and fully predictable/reliable between two key economic hubs (and Shannon Airport).

When the countries finances are restored to health then building huge projects like the M17/18 should be considered. until then lets focus on small scale projects with immediate benefits like bypasses of the towns I listed earlier.

dubhthach · 23-07-2011 5:00pm

Tbh both the M18 and M20 need to be built. Galway-Limerick-Cork is only viable nexus to counterweight Dublin from a point of economic development in this country. There's no reason why it should take longer then two hours to get from Cork to Galway

invinciblePRSTV · 23-07-2011 5:29pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Tbh both the M18 and M20 need to be built. Galway-Limerick-Cork is only viable nexus to counterweight Dublin from a point of economic development in this country. There's no reason why it should take longer then two hours to get from Cork to Galway

Yeah it's fine and indeed desirable to have the long term aim of having full motorway between Cork - Galway, indeed if the bubble hadn't burst then both the M20 & M18 would be underway by now probably.

But in the short to medium term, and given the fiscal reality, instead of putting all our proverbial eggs in one basket to build a predominantly rural 50km motorway project with low AADTS when resources are severely limited, it is more appropriate to allocate resources around the country for small projects like the aforementioned bypasses and projects like the N28 rather then concentrate huge resources in one area.

dubhthach · 23-07-2011 8:28pm

Well I'm not saying anything about the M17 section. The M18 from the M6 to where the M18 starts at Gort is 27.7km. The fact that it traverse a rural area for that distance is immaterial. It's purpose is to provide motorway connection between Galway City and Limerick City, as well as for traffic going/coming from Cork.

Google maps puts the distance between the Junction at Shannon and the end of the M18 in Gort is 42km, adding 27.7 km to Rathmorrisey and the 8km from there to Briarhill it should be possible to do the trip from Ballybrit to Shannon in under 45minutes. This isn't too much off the time it would take to get from Sandyford industrial estate to Dublin airport during middle of the day.

Given that this spanish company built the M6 of course they would be interested in building the M18 (and also M17) it makes their running of the M6 more profitable as it feeds more traffic onto the road.

spacetweek · 24-07-2011 12:36pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

But in the short to medium term, and given the fiscal reality, instead of putting all our proverbial eggs in one basket to build a predominantly rural 50km motorway project with low AADTS when resources are severely limited, it is more appropriate to allocate resources around the country for small projects like the aforementioned bypasses and projects like the N28 rather then concentrate huge resources in one area.

The money issue can be solved by tolling it, which is why tolling is be ing proposed. I find your lack of faith in future-proofing disturbing!

invinciblePRSTV · 24-07-2011 12:55pm

spacetweek wrote: »

The money issue can be solved by tolling it, which is why tolling is be ing proposed. I find your lack of faith in future-proofing disturbing!

I find your strong faith in the tolling mechanism equally disturbing! Methinks if there is a toll lopped onto the project around Gort then we'll have ourselves another M3/N25 situation with the state subsidising private operators.

As for future proofing, it's a good idea, but building a motorway to replace a road which in sections has AADTs as low as 4 digits isn't, particularly when low cost bypasses of bottlenecks will do the job just as well.

Too often roads fetishists will cite "future proofing" for any old mega-expensive project with dubious merit.

etchyed · 24-07-2011 4:53pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

...then we'll have ourselves another M3/N25 situation with the state subsidising private operators.

It's the M3 and the N18 Shannon Tunnel where this is happening.

I'm not aware of the N25 Suir Bridge (which I assume you're referring to) having this type of arrangement.

Anyway your point doesn't really make much sense, as after the two disasters above, the government would presumably only commence a tolled scheme if it was possible to do so without the minumum income guarantee made to the concessionaires on the M3 and Shannon Tunnel.

KevR · 24-07-2011 6:37pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Not acceptable to whom? why should the wesht get a luxury project like the M17/18 whilst there is no money elsewhere for simple bypasses of equal/greater importance?

Not acceptable to motorists. I don't see how anyone can find low average speeds and unpredictable journey times on an important inter-urban route acceptable.

Have actually never heard someone from the West say "Wesht". I think people write it on boards to make the West of Ireland sound rural and unimportant.

A proper road connection between two cities (economic hubs) and an international airport is not a 'luxury'. Ennis is also a pretty big town by Irish standards.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

What about the road that links our 2nd and 3rd cities? or 2nd and 4th? or 3rd and 5th? why should the M17/18 get priority? My solution and the one argued by spongebob is far more equitable and is appropriate seeing as the money just isn't there.

I don't think the M18 should be higher priority than the M20. A full motorway connection between Cork and Limerick is equally necessary.

dubhthach · 24-07-2011 6:49pm

KevR wrote: »

Have actually never heard someone from the West say "Wesht". I think people write it on boards to make the West of Ireland sound rural and unimportant.

I'll stick my hand up on saying it, though it's more as a joke (like "Tae and hang sandwiches") -- been from the west myself. "The wesht is the besht and forget the resht"

Linguistically it use to be a feature of hiberno-english accents in areas like the west (and elsewhere), it basically reflects "Slender s" in the irish language when beside a slenderising vowel (e or i). Then again Hiberno-English is quite diffeent now then it was 50 years ago let alone 100.

mayo23 · 27-07-2011 4:49am

etchyed wrote: »

It's the M3 and the N18 Shannon Tunnel where this is happening.

I'm not aware of the N25 Suir Bridge (which I assume you're referring to) having this type of arrangement.

I believe there's a similar arrangement on the M4 - the government have to give more money to the toll company if they reduce the tolls. Something like that.

invinciblePRSTV · 27-07-2011 11:03am

KevR wrote: »

Not acceptable to motorists. I don't see how anyone can find low average speeds and unpredictable journey times on an important inter-urban route acceptable.

With bypasses of the affected area's then the worst bottlenecks will be eliminated with improved journey times as a result at a fraction of the cost.

KevR wrote: »

Have actually never heard someone from the West say "Wesht". I think people write it on boards to make the West of Ireland sound rural and unimportant.

It is rural and fairly unimportant;).

KevR wrote: »

A proper road connection between two cities (economic hubs) and an international airport is not a 'luxury'. Ennis is also a pretty big town by Irish standards.

Limerick and Galway are medium sized towns and Shannons a small airport, let's not go crazy here.

KevR wrote: »

I don't think the M18 should be higher priority than the M20. A full motorway connection between Cork and Limerick is equally necessary.

An M20, like an M18 is desirable but again like the latter project, several bypasses of a couple of towns along the route will do the job just as well.

etchyed wrote: »

Anyway your point doesn't really make much sense, as after the two disasters above, the government would presumably only commence a tolled scheme if it was possible to do so without the minumum income guarantee made to the concessionaires on the M3 and Shannon Tunnel.

Would the M17/18 project be considered viable without the prospect of the government guaranteeing minimum traffic levels along the project?

Let's look at the NRA AADTs at Gort where the project starts, over the course of a year it barely registers on average 10k a day. Assuming some of this traffic will not use a toll, that's a fairly small number of potential customers, I would be surprised in this climate that a consortium would construct this project without state guarantees on minimum traffic levels.

KevR · 27-07-2011 12:08pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

With bypasses of the affected area's then the worst bottlenecks will be eliminated with improved journey times as a result at a fraction of the cost.

There is also a need to address the very long strecthes in between towns. As I said, good overtaking opportunities are almost non-existent and a small handful of slow drivers can delay absolutely everybody.

Your proposal will cost more in the long run.

My thinking would be to spend more now if it will cost us less in the long run.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

It is rural and fairly unimportant;).

Limerick and Galway are medium sized towns and Shannons a small airport, let's not go crazy here.

We'll take it as a given that Dublin is imortant. So....what other areas of the country do you think are important and worthy of good roads?

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Galway and Limerick's contribution to the Irish economy.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

An M20, like an M18 is desirable but again like the latter project, several bypasses of a couple of towns along the route will do the job just as well.

How exactly?

A full motorway gaurentees an average speed of 120kmh for the full length of your journey between 2 cities.

Small bypasses will only speed up journey times around towns (to an absolute max. of 100kmh). Throw some slow drivers into the mix and you will be lucky to have an average speed of 80kmh for the entire journey.

Small bypasses with long sections of old road remaining in between will not improve safety. A motorway will greatly imrpove safety..

So small bypasses will not do the job just as well. Let's not pretend otherwise.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Would the M17/18 project be considered viable without the prospect of the government guaranteeing minimum traffic levels along the project?

Let's look at the NRA AADTs at Gort where the project starts, over the course of a year it barely registers on average 10k a day. Assuming some of this traffic will not use a toll, that's a fairly small number of potential customers, I would be surprised in this climate that a consortium would construct this project without state guarantees on minimum traffic levels.

That traffic counter is South of Gort. There is obviously extra commuter traffic North of Gort.

invinciblePRSTV · 27-07-2011 12:59pm

KevR wrote: »

There is also a need to address the very long strecthes in between towns. As I said, good overtaking opportunities are almost non-existent and a small handful of slow drivers can delay absolutely everybody.

Your proposal will cost more in the long run.

My thinking would be to spend more now if it will cost us less in the long run.

As I've repeatedly said that whilst it may be desirable to have full Mway spec on the route, right now with limited finances and plenty of other projects nationwide to fund then bypasses of the main towns will do do for now.

When/if the economy turns itself around then the state can resume it's large scale Mway construction projects.

KevR wrote: »

We'll take it as a given that Dublin is imortant. So....what other areas of the country do you think are important and worthy of good roads?

No one mentioned Dublin.............

KevR wrote: »

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Galway and Limerick's contribution to the Irish economy.

And no one mentioned either area's contribution to the Irish economy either.....

KevR wrote: »

How exactly?

By removing the major bottlenecks along the route.

KevR wrote: »

Small bypasses will only speed up journey times around towns (to an absolute max. of 100kmh). Throw some slow drivers into the mix and you will be lucky to have an average speed of 80kmh for the entire journey.

Small bypasses with long sections of old road remaining in between will not improve safety. A motorway will greatly imrpove safety..

So small bypasses will not do the job just as well. Let's not pretend otherwise.

No one is saying that we can't ever build the M18/17, what I'm repeatesly saying is that the most important bits are the bypasses and these can be built first along with other important projects throughout the country. When the economic situation improves then the gaps can be filled in so to speak.

KevR wrote: »

That traffic counter is South of Gort. There is obviously extra commuter traffic North of Gort.

So? That's where the project begins, that's the level of traffic on this supposedly vital intercity route. Will all those extra commuters be willing to pay a daily toll? I doubt it. However you reconfirm my point which I made earlier that this project, if built, will be primarily utilised by a few thouand long distance commuters living in the one off housing land that is the Wesht.

CerebralCortex · 27-07-2011 1:26pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

As I've repeatedly said that whilst it may be desirable to have full Mway spec on the route, right now with limited finances and plenty of other projects nationwide to fund then bypasses of the main towns will do do for now.

When/if the economy turns itself around then the state can resume it's large scale Mway construction projects.

No one mentioned Dublin.............

And no one mentioned either area's contribution to the Irish economy either.....

By removing the major bottlenecks along the route.

No one is saying that we can't ever build the M18/17, what I'm repeatesly saying is that the most important bits are the bypasses and these can be built first along with other important projects throughout the country. When the economic situation improves then the gaps can be filled in so to speak.

So? That's where the project begins, that's the level of traffic on this supposedly vital intercity route. Will all those extra commuters be willing to pay a daily toll? I doubt it. However you reconfirm my point which I made earlier that this project, if built, will be primarily utilised by a few thouand long distance commuters living in the one off housing land that is the Wesht.

But you're getting marginal gain for huge cost, more often then not the hold ups on the N20 for me are slow drivers. The economies of scale don't add up for me. Bypasses are expensive and may take the best part of 10, 15 minutes of a journey on the N20 and I'm being generous. I could be in Cork within 50 minutes with motor way from Limerick.

Irish and Proud · 27-07-2011 1:28pm

Having visited 'Highways and Autobahns' on skyscrapercity.com, I don't think we as a country can afford to sit on our laurels looking at the progress in some Eastern European countries like Lithuania, Hungry and Bulgaria. Here are a couple of examples:

1) Bulgarian Motorway Map and the Related Thread;

2) Hungarian Motorway Map and the Related Thread.

Ireland has come a very long way, but still has a long way to go - if we don't continue to take road investment seriously enough, we will fall behind - simple as! We're well up there now in terms of motorways, but we need to get cracking on the AWC and the Galway Outer Bypass. We also need 2+2 roads (or at least 2+1) connecting Waterford to both Limerick and Cork as well as the N21 to Kerry. A motorway along the N4 from Mullingar to Longford town wouldn't go a miss either. The DOOR could wait as long as roads like the N51, N52 and N80 continue to receive steady investment. However, there needs to be a substantial programme for 2020 when all National Primary Routes are upgraded - whether they're ST1, DT3, DT2, DT1 or even Motorway standard. Substantial progress is also required on the National Secondary Routes.

Regards!

dubhthach · 27-07-2011 1:35pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Having visited 'Highways and Autobahns' on skyscrapercity.com, I don't think we as a country can afford to sit on our laurels looking at the progress in some Eastern European countries like Lithuania, Hungry and Bulgaria. Here are a couple of examples:

1) Bulgarian Motorway Map and the Related Thread;

2) Hungarian Motorway Map and the Related Thread.

Ireland has come a very long way, but still has a long way to go - if we don't continue to take road investment seriously enough, we will fall behind - simple as! We're well up there now in terms of motorways, but we need to get cracking on the AWC and the Galway Outer Bypass. We also need 2+2 roads (or at least 2+1) connecting Waterford to both Limerick and Cork as well as the N21 to Kerry. A motorway along the N4 from Mullingar to Longford town wouldn't go a miss either. The DOOR could wait as long as roads like the N51, N52 and N80 continue to receive steady investment. However, there needs to be a substantial programme for 2020 when all National Primary Routes are upgraded - whether they're ST1, DT3, DT2, DT1 or even Motorway standard. Substantial progress is also required on the National Secondary Routes.

Regards!

The reason why they can build such motorways is that they actually use the structural funds they get from EU membership to build them. In our case the money was passed around like "Snuff at a funeral" so as to curry as many votes as possible. When you think of Albert Reynolds coming back with £7 billion in 1992. The current motorway network would have probably had been built a lot cheaper if they fire ahead with construction in this period before the boom took off and drove land prices through the roof.

invinciblePRSTV · 31-07-2011 3:30pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

But you're getting marginal gain for huge cost,

It's the opposite, building bypasses of the worst bottlenecks around the country will benefit more people rather then just a few thousand long distance commuters out wesht on the M17/18.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

more often then not the hold ups on the N20 for me are slow drivers.

Maybe you're an excessive speeder? It's fairly common on Irish roads, Remember 100km p/h isn't a target;), particularly on a road like the N20 between Mallow - Croom.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

The economies of scale don't add up for me.

The opportunity cost of building a predominantly rural motorway like the AC doesn't add up for me either when there are small scale road and public transport projects around the country with equal merit.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Bypasses are expensive and may take the best part of 10, 15 minutes of a journey on the N20 and I'm being generous.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I could be in Cork within 50 minutes with motor way from Limerick.

Yeah that's great and all but as I'm sure you'll know well, the AADTs on the N20 drop steeply to the low teens once you go past Mallow and don't really pick up again until you near the Limerick commuter towns. A couple of small, cheap bypasses of the the likes of Buttevant & Charleville will suffice for such low traffic numbers.

Chris_5339762 · 31-07-2011 4:43pm

... leaving the section between Charleville and the Croom Bypass which people wont stop dieing on. The simple truth is the entire N20 needs doing.

spacetweek · 01-08-2011 4:50pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Having visited 'Highways and Autobahns' on skyscrapercity.com, I don't think we as a country can afford to sit on our laurels looking at the progress in some Eastern European countries like Lithuania, Hungry and Bulgaria.

I've read that thread and it seems like they're having lots of difficulties over there! The only Eastern European countries that have made significant progress are Czech, Slovenia and Croatia, which have essentially completed their networks. Scaling for population, the rest have not made anywhere near as much progress as we have. (And Lithuania does not have any bona fide motorways, despite evidence to the contrary. None of its roads that have been declared motorways are motorway spec.)

That said, some of them are beating us on secondary roads. We have a lot of progress to make in that respect.

yer man! · 01-08-2011 6:57pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

It's the opposite, building bypasses of the worst bottlenecks around the country will benefit more people rather then just a few thousand long distance commuters out wesht on the M17/18.

The biggest holdups on the current N17/N18 is the slow drivers on the long stretches where it's impossible to overtake. The road from kilcolgan to gort is a windy narrow road with a terrible road surface. There are thousands of commuters which would avail of a motorway to get into galway or down to limerick or up to/from tuam. Building several bypasses around towns would be useless and a very very long process to get planning and cpo approval. Also the bypasses wouldn't be tolled whereas the motorway could be tolled.

KevR · 04-08-2011 11:13pm

invinciblePRSTV: what do you think about the Tralee Bypass?

It's a solitary bypass of a town. It's not a rural motorway. The thing is, it's 19km long in total and it will cost €96m.

How much will the M17/18 cost?

It will bypass Tuam, Claregalway (two very big bottlenecks), Oranmore, Clarinbridge and Kilcolgan. Five towns/villages bypassed and it will provide a full motorway connection between Galway and Limerick (+ Shannon Airport and Ennis). It will also improve journey times between Galway and Cork.

invinciblePRSTV · 04-08-2011 11:45pm

KevR wrote: »

invinciblePRSTV: what do you think about the Tralee Bypass?

It's a solitary bypass of a town. It's not a rural motorway. The thing is, it's 19km long in total and it will cost €96m.

Well I'm taking the view that projects like the Tralee bypass, N25, M11 and N52 upgrades represent a more realistic approach to spending meagre resources in the times we're in.

Whatever about the merits of the Tralee bypass vis a vis AADTs and the like, as a sub 100 million project it's a far more realistic project to fund then the M17/18 which i gather is still struggling for financing and will require I'm sure significant financial guarantess from the state in order to proceed.

We've grown used to being spoiled by big ticket transport projects with eye watering costs in the bubble times. I make the argument that until the domestic situation improves, or some sort of public works stimulus is in place, then small scale upgrades of national and local routes as well as public transport spending represents best use of public money.

KevR wrote: »

How much will the M17/18 cost?

A lot more then the Tralee bypass that's for the sure if it ever get's built.

KevR wrote: »

It will bypass Tuam, Claregalway (two very big bottlenecks), Oranmore, Clarinbridge and Kilcolgan. Five towns/villages bypassed and it will provide a full motorway connection between Galway and Limerick (+ Shannon Airport and Ennis). It will also improve journey times between Galway and Cork.

We could have had cheap and functional bypasses of Tuam & Claregalway in place right now if those schemes were kept on the priority list rather then being rolled into the bubble era T21 'Atlantic Corridor' plan. It might not have been perfect but at least th worst bottlenecks would have been covered.

CerebralCortex · 05-08-2011 9:09am

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

We've grown used to being spoiled by big ticket transport projects with eye watering costs in the bubble times. I make the argument that until the domestic situation improves, or some sort of public works stimulus is in place, then small scale upgrades of national and local routes as well as public transport spending represents best use of public money.

You're joking right?

veryangryman · 05-08-2011 9:21am

CerebralCortex wrote: »

You're joking right?

Think he has a point. Land grab costs were at a premium when roads were being built. Bad luck with timing etc but it still rings true.

Also the fact that when you compare amount of roadbuilding in <2000 with what happened in last 10 years. 10 years back we only had M4 to Kilcock, M7 in bits and pieces (and even then only as far as Portlaoise), no M8 whatsoever and no M6 whatsoever.

As for not building more now, im not so much in agreement. Get the schemes for Adare and ClareGalway/Tuam sorted, throw in some more M20 and we wont be doing so bad

invinciblePRSTV · 05-08-2011 9:50am

CerebralCortex wrote: »

You're joking right?

Clearly you weren't in the country during the late 1990s - to mid 2000s.

dubhthach · 05-08-2011 9:55am

Of course once fixed tendering was brought in the actual overruns ceased. The problem of course at time was the continue galloping ahead of land prices. Given the collaspe in prices of agriculture land now it would make sense for at least the NRA to start doing the fieldwork/CPO's for projects that will be need in 15-20 years time.

invinciblePRSTV · 05-08-2011 9:57am

veryangryman wrote: »

Think he has a point. Land grab costs were at a premium when roads were being built. Bad luck with timing etc but it still rings true.

Land prices played a large part alright in the recent past (thank you IFA:rolleyes:) but when I'm referring to cost I'm really referring to the potential for the M17/18 project to eat up entirely what limited resources that are there irrespective of whatever funding mechanism is found for it.

veryangryman wrote: »

Also the fact that when you compare amount of roadbuilding in <2000 with what happened in last 10 years. 10 years back we only had M4 to Kilcock, M7 in bits and pieces (and even then only as far as Portlaoise), no M8 whatsoever and no M6 whatsoever.

You've stumbled onto an excellent point. Most of the major motorways in this country were built in a piecemeal manner with bypasses of the worst bottlenecks being built first. No one is saying to never build the M17/18/20, but that building priority bypasses of the worst towns now and filling in the gaps later is the optimal solution when resources are extremely limited. Again let us remember Claregalway and Tuam would have had bypasses either built now or near completion if they'd just been left alone.

veryangryman wrote: »

As for not building more now, im not so much in agreement. Get the schemes for Adare and ClareGalway/Tuam sorted, throw in some more M20 and we wont be doing so bad

I say disentangle these schemes from the grandiose Atlantic Corridor notion and just build bypasses of the towns instead.

antoobrien · 05-08-2011 10:46am

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Land prices played a large part alright in the recent past (thank you IFA:rolleyes:) but when I'm referring to cost I'm really referring to the potential for the M17/18 project to eat up entirely what limited resources that are there irrespective of whatever funding mechanism is found for it.

The land is already paid for.

With regards the Gort to Tuam motorway, around €120 million has already been spent on this scheme with the vast majority of this being on the acquisition of lands along the 57 kilometre route.

KevR wrote: »

invinciblePRSTV: what do you think about the Tralee Bypass?

It's a solitary bypass of a town. It's not a rural motorway. The thing is, it's 19km long in total and it will cost €96m.

How much will the M17/18 cost?

It will bypass Tuam, Claregalway (two very big bottlenecks), Oranmore, Clarinbridge and Kilcolgan. Five towns/villages bypassed and it will provide a full motorway connection between Galway and Limerick (+ Shannon Airport and Ennis). It will also improve journey times between Galway and Cork.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

A lot more then the Tralee bypass that's for the sure if it ever get's built.

We could have had cheap and functional bypasses of Tuam & Claregalway in place right now if those schemes were kept on the priority list rather then being rolled into the bubble era T21 'Atlantic Corridor' plan. It might not have been perfect but at least th worst bottlenecks would have been covered.

What about Loughgeorge & Knockdoe (i'm not sure if these 2 appear on the map but if you actually use the road you'll know where I'm referring to) which also have a significant effect on rush hour traffic on the N17 between Galway & Tuam.

We're also missing Ardrahan and Kilcolgan (junction of N18 & N67) from the list of bypassed towns and villages. For spite I could throw in Labane, but I'm not that petty (besides if you blink you'll miss it, a bit like Coldwood on the old N6).

By the way your idea of value for money is very different from mine. For simplicity I'm assuming that the Tralee project includes land costs (however looking at the expected costs per km, it looks like the Tralee project does not include land acquisition costs -5.05m vs 5.25m). Here's basic analysis of the two projects.

M17/18 Costs
Estimated construction cost M17/18 (57km of DC)- €300m
Money already spent on land €120m
Total Estimated cost: €420m
Total no Bypasses: 7

Total Cost per bypass (lincl land) = €60m
Total Cost per bypass (construction only) = €42.85m
Total Cost Per KM (lincl land) = 7.36m
Total Cost Per KM (construction only) = 5.26m

Tralee
Construction cost for 13km DC & 5.5KM - 97m
Cost per km €5.05m (assuming all dc for the calculation).

No matter what way you cut that the Tralee bypass comes out badly, and i.m.o. it invalidates the premise of providing bypasses as value for money. If you look at the M17/18 project purely as a set of bypasses and not as a potential Western regional strategic route it provides better value for money than the single bypass of Tralee (43m per bypass vs 97m).

Going by the Tralee figures, if we were to provide only bypasses for the 7 towns and reroute traffic back to the existing N17 & N18, it would cost almost 679m to build equivalent bypasses.

Going back to your original premise (an use your own words) - to build cheap & functional bypasses to the same scale as Tralee around Tuam & Claregalway would cost €194m - vs €300m for the entire scheme. And you're still ignoring the mess that is Clarinbridge to Oranmore (which doesn't get the publicity but is bad).

That doesn't sound cheap to me. And if there are additional land costs for Tralee, as the figures suggest there are, it comes out even worse.

invinciblePRSTV · 05-08-2011 11:59am

antoobrien wrote: »

The land is already paid for.

That's great, now how much is it going to cost the state to coerce some construction company, any construction company, to build the scheme? It seems to me that this will require shadow tolling at a minimum = more expensive commitments to the state.

antoobrien wrote: »

What about Loughgeorge & Knockdoe (i'm not sure if these 2 appear on the map but if you actually use the road you'll know where I'm referring to) which also have a significant effect on rush hour traffic on the N17 between Galway & Tuam.

This is what I'm talking about when I mention how people are spoiled by the idea of big schemes bypassing everything. Irish motorists have for the past 2 decades become well use to motorways being built in a piecemeal manner, so what does it matter if commuters have to go through a few small villages for a few years? Plenty of people have done it, indeed plenty of people still do after they come off the motorway network around the country.

antoobrien wrote: »

We're also missing Ardrahan and Kilcolgan (junction of N18 & N67) from the list of bypassed towns and villages. For spite I could throw in Labane, but I'm not that petty (besides if you blink you'll miss it, a bit like Coldwood on the old N6).

Again I say: so what? anyone using the motorway network over the past few decades will be used to this kind of setup. It's not ideal but this is real life and real money, not a game of Simcity.

antoobrien wrote: »

By the way your idea of value for money is very different from mine. For simplicity I'm assuming that the Tralee project includes land costs (however looking at the expected costs per km, it looks like the Tralee project does not include land acquisition costs -5.05m vs 5.25m). Here's basic analysis of the two projects.

My ideal for value for money is simple: there are finite resources available to the DoT, and instead of putting all their eggs in one basket with the Atlantic corridor - a project conceived when revenues to the state were well in excess of what they are now - The Tralee bypass costs sub 100 million, this means other necessary projects can be built around the country.

antoobrien wrote: »

M17/18 Costs
Estimated construction cost M17/18 (57km of DC)- €300m
Money already spent on land €120m
Total Estimated cost: €420m
Total no Bypasses: 7

Total Cost per bypass (lincl land) = €60m
Total Cost per bypass (construction only) = €42.85m
Total Cost Per KM (lincl land) = 7.36m
Total Cost Per KM (construction only) = 5.26m

Tralee
Construction cost for 13km DC & 5.5KM - 97m
Cost per km €5.05m (assuming all dc for the calculation).

No matter what way you cut that the Tralee bypass comes out badly, and i.m.o. it invalidates the premise of providing bypasses as value for money. If you look at the M17/18 project purely as a set of bypasses and not as a potential Western regional strategic route it provides better value for money than the single bypass of Tralee (43m per bypass vs 97m).

As I've mentioned it's not just the Tralee route being built, it's the N25/M11/N52 upgrades as well, collectively these represent a greater spread of resources then focusing it on one project in one fairly rural part of the country.

antoobrien wrote: »

Going by the Tralee figures, if we were to provide only bypasses for the 7 towns and reroute traffic back to the existing N17 & N18, it would cost almost 679m to build equivalent bypasses.

I'm sure if we'd have built the M7 or M8 in one go, or the M50, then the construction costs would have been significantly cheaper then building it in a piecemeal manner.

But guess what? it's not feasible to divert all resources into one project and leave others hanging as you appear to be suggesting. Which is why i suggest bypass the worst bottlenecks on the route and get around to the rest if/when the money is available.

antoobrien wrote: »

Going back to your original premise (an usyour own words) - to build cheap & functional bypasses to the same scale as Tralee around Tuam & Claregalway would cost €194m - vs €300m for the entire scheme. And you're still ignoring the mess that is Clarinbridge to Oranmore (which doesn't get the publicity but is bad).

Like i said, Tuam and Claregalway would be bypassed now if these projects had proceeded ahead when the revenues were there instead of being lumped into the AC concept. We had 194 million in 2006, we don't really have 300+ million in 2011 to blow without cancelling other schemes.

antoobrien wrote: »

That doesn't sound cheap to me. And if there are additional land costs for Tralee, as the figures suggest there are, it comes out even worse.

You are overly focused on just the Tralee bypass, it's about best use of public resources, why should the rest of the country have critical projects indefinitely delayed whilst just one project eats up the entire roads spend?

mk6705 · 05-08-2011 12:15pm

antoobrien wrote: »

Tralee
Construction cost for 13km DC & 5.5KM - 97m
Cost per km â‚¬5.05m (assuming all dc for the calculation).

It's 8km type 2 dc and 5.5 km S2.

Sponge Bob · 05-08-2011 12:27pm

The construction cost Gort - Ennis was €90m or around €3m a KM so if the land is bought for Gort - Tuam it should come in under €200m not €300m as others have said.

antoobrien · 05-08-2011 2:09pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

That's great, now how much is it going to cost the state to coerce some construction company, any construction company, to build the scheme? It seems to me that this will require shadow tolling at a minimum = more expensive commitments to the state.

Go back and read it again, the estimated cost is €300m, for a road that has a significant population base to serve it (unlike the jackie healy rae highway tralee bypass) and will provide a strategic regional route. What the hell is Tralee being started for before say Newlands Cross, Adare, New Ross, CLaregalway, Tuam or Calrinbridge?

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

This is what I'm talking about when I mention how people are spoiled by the idea of big schemes bypassing everything. Irish motorists have for the past 2 decades become well use to motorways being built in a piecemeal manner, so what does it matter if commuters have to go through a few small villages for a few years? Plenty of people have done it, indeed plenty of people still do after they come off the motorway network around the country.

So you're willing to throw money at the start and end of the problem but not the middle. A good example of this was the Loughrea bypass, it got the traffic out of Loughrea but the problem was just moved about 5 miles to Kilreekil. It's not about solving a point problem it's about solving the WHOLE problem.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Again I say: so what? anyone using the motorway network over the past few decades will be used to this kind of setup. It's not ideal but this is real life and real money, not a game of Simcity.

I absolutely hated having to go through Kilbeggan, Horseleap & Moate to get to Athlone and whoever decided that the traffic would land before Kilbeggan should be shot, what's the point of building a motorway to before a place? At least when Ballinalsoe to Galway was built none of that messing went on (like say dropping us off before Aughrim where the it crosses the old N6).

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

My ideal for value for money is simple: there are finite resources available to the DoT, and instead of putting all their eggs in one basket with the Atlantic corridor - a project conceived when revenues to the state were well in excess of what they are now - The Tralee bypass costs sub 100 million, this means other necessary projects can be built around the country.

So we spend it on one small town instead of serving a county with a population of 250k and leading into one of the biggest population centers in the country? Seriously, if we're to consider spending money on spot projects as you're suggesting the Newlands Cross upgrade is far more important to the South West of the Country than Tralee ever could be (I feel dirty saying that too).

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

As I've mentioned it's not just the Tralee route being built, it's the N25/M11/N52 upgrades as well, collectively these represent a greater spread of resources then focusing it on one project in one fairly rural part of the country.

Tralee = 97m on its own
N25 = PPP (so we'll be paying for it for years, just like the vast majority of the projects that went ahead over the past 5-10 years)
N52 - has had enough spent on it while biffo was in charge, how the hell can they justify a Tullamore bypass when they can't justify a Galway bypass?
M11 - was PPP but is now tax payer because they want to build Newlands Cross (it was always part of it). Persoanlly I'd split out Newlands from the M11, build Newlands on taxpayersa nd lump the M11 in with the N25

On AADT figures alone (Arlkow north is less than 20k, Claregalway trumps that on it's own and the traffic counters south of Gort recorded 10k before Gort was bypassed - gives over 30k cars using this corridor trying to get to Galway), which makes it a better use of money (not to mention the generally crap roads we have in the West)

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

I'm sure if we'd have built the M7 or M8 in one go, or the M50, then the construction costs would have been significantly cheaper then building it in a piecemeal manner.

Guess what, these roads were built in 30-60KM stretches, M17/18 is 57km (and the M6 was 58km iirc). SO we're not talking about anything new or revolutionary here.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

But guess what? it's not feasible to divert all resources into one project and leave others hanging as you appear to be suggesting. Which is why i suggest bypass the worst bottlenecks on the route and get around to the rest if/when the money is available.

Putting a band aid on a broken arm doesn't do much for the arm. If anything having bypasses in the wrong place, especially DCs, can make them more dangerous than the existing road. While the M6 was being built the Athlone DC was effectively used as a high speed race trace to get by people that couldn't be passed previously due to the lack of overtaking opportunities or the passing the 20/30 vehicle convoys that built up along the N6. It wasn't until the Killbeggan to Athlone section opened that the traffic calmed down a bit.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Like i said, Tuam and Claregalway would be bypassed now if these projects had proceeded ahead when the revenues were there instead of being lumped into the AC concept. We had 194 million in 2006, we don't really have 300+ million in 2011 to blow without cancelling other schemes.

There's been campaigning for a Claregalway bypass for a long time (at least 3 general elections, Noel Grealish has run on that platform for the past 2), since before the AC concept came about. IIRC it was mooted around the time as the Galway bypass in the late 90's. If you think for a second that a CG bypass ever had a chance of being built I suggest you get back in touch with reality. You also seem to forget the 80s and 90s phenomenon of towns & villages campaigning against bypasses (yes it happened) as it would mean the death of the town/village.

Why are you under the illusion that we have to find 300m to fund this right now? We don't it's a PPP project. We have to convince someone to borrow 300m (like FCC did for the M6) and have the government pay them over 20/30 years.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

You are overly focused on just the Tralee bypass, it's about best use of public resources, why should the rest of the country have critical projects indefinitely delayed whilst just one project eats up the entire roads spend?

I'm focused on the Tralee bypass because it's an example of p*ss poor decision making with national money (buying JHRs vote). There are several places that would get more benefit from this.

It also shows up the folly of your proposal to built bypasses of towns but (and this is implied because it's what happens) do nothing about the stretches that cause problems - e.g. on the N6 bypassing Loughrea but not doing anything about the realigning 5km twisty (rally track really) between Cappy & Aughrim to make it safer. You don't mind seeing nothing being done with these when you know something is being built, but the idea that a bypass is "good enough" with nothing coming down the road to fix the other problems is insulting.

invinciblePRSTV · 05-08-2011 3:52pm

antoobrien wrote: »

Go back and read it again, the estimated cost is €300m, for a road that has a significant population base to serve it (unlike the jackie healy rae highway tralee bypass)

It's a bypass of an urban area and not a predominantly rural scheme. I imagine Tralee's AADTs will be quite respectable in the Irish context if not spectacular.

antoobrien wrote: »

and will provide a strategic regional route. What the hell is Tralee being started for before say Newlands Cross, Adare, New Ross, CLaregalway, Tuam or Calrinbridge?

Because it's cheaper to start a sub 100 million project rather then waiting on/convincing a consortium to take the risk on the M17/18.

antoobrien wrote: »

So you're willing to throw money at the start and end of the problem but not the middle. A good example of this was the Loughrea bypass, it got the traffic out of Loughrea but the problem was just moved about 5 miles to Kilreekil. It's not about solving a point problem it's about solving the WHOLE problem.

And the problem is being solved in a piecemeal manner as the state can afford it.

antoobrien wrote: »

I absolutely hated having to go through Kilbeggan, Horseleap & Moate to get to Athlone and whoever decided that the traffic would land before Kilbeggan should be shot, what's the point of building a motorway to before a place? At least when Ballinalsoe to Galway was built none of that messing went on (like say dropping us off before Aughrim where the it crosses the old N6).

As i said it's not ideal but taking the past few years into consideration which would you have rathered? bypasses of the worst bottlenecks in place now with incremental improvements coming down the line.....

....Or wait and wait and wait whilst the AC is hawked by the government to whoever is desperate enough to build it?

antoobrien wrote: »

So we spend it on one small town instead of serving a county with a population of 250k and leading into one of the biggest population centers in the country?

Nice massaging of the figures but Galway is still just a medium sized town in international terms. It already has a Motorway serving it solely whereas if it were a UK town it would be lucky to have a junction on a motorway serving somewhere else a lot bigger.

You should consider yourself extremely lucky that we're willing in this country to build massively over spec infrastructure projects to serve such sparsely populated areas which Co. Galway most definitely is.

antoobrien wrote: »

Seriously, if we're to consider spending money on spot projects as you're suggesting the Newlands Cross upgrade is far more important to the South West of the Country than Tralee ever could be (I feel dirty saying that too).

If it were me I'd only upgrade the infrastructure which is creaking under the strain like your Newlands X and your Cork SRR's, build functional bypasses of bottlenecks like your Claregalways and Tuams and invest whatever other money is left in smaller scale local and national projects of critical importance.

Until such time as the the state's economic prospects pick up.

antoobrien wrote: »

Tralee = 97m on its own

Tralee is more important a town then Tuam, so why should't it get a bypass?

antoobrien wrote: »

N25 = PPP (so we'll be paying for it for years, just like the vast majority of the projects that went ahead over the past 5-10 years)

The N25 upgrades will pay for itself in a short time I'd wager.

antoobrien wrote: »

N52 - has had enough spent on it while biffo was in charge, how the hell can they justify a Tullamore bypass when they can't justify a Galway bypass?

To my mind towns like Tullamore, like Tuam or Claregalway only really need single lane bypasses.

antoobrien wrote: »

M11 - was PPP but is now tax payer because they want to build Newlands Cross (it was always part of it). Persoanlly I'd split out Newlands from the M11, build Newlands on taxpayersa nd lump the M11 in with the N25

Newlands X, like the SRR upgrades will pay for itself, not sure on the viability of the M11 scheme personally.

antoobrien wrote: »

On AADT figures alone (Arlkow north is less than 20k, Claregalway trumps that on it's own and the traffic counters south of Gort recorded 10k before Gort was bypassed - gives over 30k cars using this corridor trying to get to Galway), which makes it a better use of money (not to mention the generally crap roads we have in the West)

What this tells me is that not an awful lot of Cork-Limerick-Galway journies are carried out on the route, but that an awful lot of long distance commuting journies are and that when people in the wesht talk about the routes strategic importance, really they just want a nice quick drive home to their one off house 10 miles outside of Gort. Not a good enough reason in my book to advance this project.

antoobrien wrote: »

Guess what, these roads were built in 30-60KM stretches, M17/18 is 57km (and the M6 was 58km iirc). SO we're not talking about anything new or revolutionary here.

Guess what! The Naas, Portlaoise, Nenagh, Cashel, & Fermoy bypasses were built all on their ownsome! I was certainly glad of these bypasses being built when they were rather then waiting indefinitely for a project to be built all at once.

antoobrien wrote: »

Putting a band aid on a broken arm doesn't do much for the arm. If anything having bypasses in the wrong place, especially DCs, can make them more dangerous than the existing road. While the M6 was being built the Athlone DC was effectively used as a high speed race trace to get by people that couldn't be passed previously due to the lack of overtaking opportunities or the passing the 20/30 vehicle convoys that built up along the N6. It wasn't until the Killbeggan to Athlone section opened that the traffic calmed down a bit.

Your band aid analogy isn't appropriate, as explained, building motorways can be done so in a piecemeal fashion.

antoobrien wrote: »

There's been campaigning for a Claregalway bypass for a long time (at least 3 general elections, Noel Grealish has run on that platform for the past 2), since before the AC concept came about. IIRC it was mooted around the time as the Galway bypass in the late 90's. If you think for a second that a CG bypass ever had a chance of being built
I suggest you get back in touch with reality.

I would gladly argue here that that on their own merits, the Galway, Tuam & CG bypasses should have been built by now, but then theire are a lot of projects and towns about the country i could say the same thing about.

If they were still standalone projects then I would gladly argue that at the least, the GCOB & CG BP's should be built ahead of projects like the N52 or Tralee bypass. If they hadn't been rolled into the AC project I'd be pretty certain that at least two of them would be either open or under construction by now.

Instead they were tacked into the AC project, and will stay in NRA purgatory until someone is suckered into building it, just like other projects of equal or greater strategic importance.

antoobrien wrote: »

Why are you under the illusion that we have to find 300m to fund this right now? We don't it's a PPP project. We have to convince someone to borrow 300m (like FCC did for the M6) and have the government pay them over 20/30 years.

You understand right that taking on a financial commitment of 300m+, even if spread over 20-30 years, is still a significant proposition for a state?. Particularly one with as dire a short and medium term future as the Irish state? you get this right?

antoobrien wrote: »

I'm focused on the Tralee bypass because it's an example of p*ss poor decision making with national money (buying JHRs vote). There are several places that would get more benefit from this.

Save it for the Tralee bypass thread.

antoobrien wrote: »

It also shows up the folly of your proposal to built bypasses of towns but (and this is implied because it's what happens) do nothing about the stretches that cause problems - e.g. on the N6 bypassing Loughrea but not doing anything about the realigning 5km twisty (rally track really) between Cappy & Aughrim to make it safer.

I'm going to say this for probably for the umpteenth time, i'm not proposing not building the AC, what i'm proposing is bypassing the critcal bottlenecks now and fill in the gaps later when the cash is there for it.

antoobrien wrote: »

You don't mind seeing nothing being done with these when you know something is being built

I have no idea what you're trying to say here, please elaborate.

antoobrien wrote: »

but the idea that a bypass is "good enough" with nothing coming down the road to fix the other problems is insulting.

Don't be silly. Insulting? lol, as i've repeatedly said, the AC can be built once the money is there but until then bypassing the worst bottlenecks isn't exactly insulting, it's the most obvious solution. This is how we've built the national network through good times and bad yet now suddenly according to you it's "insulting"? lol you're having a laugh lad.

KevR · 05-08-2011 11:48pm

The final section of the M18 doesn't solely serve Galway, it will serve a much wider area because..... it will connect to another inter-urban motorway. We will have a motorway network as opposed to having two standalone motorways (Dublin-Galway and Limerick-Gort). The final section of the M18 will mean that the M6 corridor is better utilised (e.g. - people would travel Athlone-Limerick on the motorway network via Rathmorrissey, rather than taking the slightly more direct alternative route on terrible roads; and there are loads more examples of additional journeys that would be done on the M6/M18 corridors once the last section of M18 is complete).

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

It's a bypass of an urban area and not a predominantly rural scheme. I imagine Tralee's AADTs will be quite respectable in the Irish context if not spectacular.

Nice massaging of the figures but Galway is still just a medium sized town in international terms. It already has a Motorway serving it solely whereas if it were a UK town it would be lucky to have a junction on a motorway serving somewhere else a lot bigger.

You should consider yourself extremely lucky that we're willing in this country to build massively over spec infrastructure projects to serve such sparsely populated areas which Co. Galway most definitely is.

You talk about Tralee in an Irish context but talk about Galway in an international context. I don't understand that reasoning to be honest.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

What this tells me is that not an awful lot of Cork-Limerick-Galway journies are carried out on the route, but that an awful lot of long distance commuting journies are and that when people in the wesht talk about the routes strategic importance, really they just want a nice quick drive home to their one off house 10 miles outside of Gort. Not a good enough reason in my book to advance this project.

Not surprising given how terrible a lot of the road is.

Galway-Cork is approx the same distance as Galway-Dublin.
I drive Galway-Dublin regularly since the motorway opened (I rarely did when it used to take 4 hours!); I also use Public Transport a lot now (express buses on the m'way are fantastic).
I have never myself driven to Cork and I haven't been to Cork in 15 years (with someone else driving or PT). Granted, the Limerick tunnel and M18 bypassing Crusheen + Gort + the horrible section in between the two towns has improved journey times; driving the N20 and Oranmore-Gort on the N18 is not an appealing journey! The N18 and N20 are definitely stiffling economic activity between Galway, Limerick and Cork. I don't think small bypasses will do much to improve the situation.

06-08-2011 1:01am

how about a thread split, this is getting boring reading point/counter point

invinciblePRSTV · 07-08-2011 1:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

how about a thread split, this is getting boring reading point/counter point

Why should we split the thread? we're very much on topic besides some people fixating on Tralee and we're discussing individual points related overall to the M17/18 scheme.

No one is forcing you to read it, or stopping you from contributing with I'm sure some scintillating posts of your own so don't bother moaning about how boring it is.

You want short and sharp posts? jog on over to After Hours.

KevR wrote: »

The final section of the M18 doesn't solely serve Galway, it will serve a much wider area because..... it will connect to another inter-urban motorway.

Again with the padding, the west of Ireland isn't exactly over populated, your "wider area" served by the M18 is a few small towns, a big one and lot's and lots of rural one offs.

KevR wrote: »

We will have a motorway network as opposed to having two standalone motorways (Dublin-Galway and Limerick-Gort). The final section of the M18 will mean that the M6 corridor is better utilised (e.g. - people would travel Athlone-Limerick on the motorway network via Rathmorrissey, rather than taking the slightly more direct alternative route on terrible roads; and there are loads more examples of additional journeys that would be done on the M6/M18 corridors once the last section of M18 is complete).

This is where we differ then, you're focused on joining the blue lines together, which there's nothing wrong with btw, I'm focused on best use of limited resources available.

KevR wrote: »

You talk about Tralee in an Irish context but talk about Galway in an international context. I don't understand that reasoning to be honest.

What's there not to understand? On the one hand I said that the Tralee bypass will probably have reasonable AADTs in an Irish context but that building a motorway between 2 Irish 'cities' which are really medium sized towns in an international context is overkill, especially when the public finances are under severe pressure and there's plenty of other projects with similar merits and cheaper costs to do.

KevR wrote: »

Not surprising given how terrible a lot of the road is.

Or how small the potential for trade is, afterall what exactly does Galway offer in terms of commerce beyond tourism and a few IDA estates & factories? It's not exactly the major economic hub on the island now is it?

KevR wrote: »

Galway-Cork is approx the same distance as Galway-Dublin.

Distance isn't the only factor, population and the potential for usage is the main one imo. As i said perhaps over a period of decades there might be an increase in numbers doing Cork-Galway but let's not kid ourselves, the main beneficiaries of the M17/18 are long distance commuters spread out along the one off housing jungle that is the western seaboard.

KevR wrote: »

I have never myself driven to Cork and I haven't been to Cork in 15 years (with someone else driving or PT). Granted, the Limerick tunnel and M18 bypassing Crusheen + Gort + the horrible section in between the two towns has improved journey times; driving the N20 and Oranmore-Gort on the N18 is not an appealing journey! The N18 and N20 are definitely stiffling economic activity between Galway, Limerick and Cork. I don't think small bypasses will do much to improve the situation.

I know a couple of people from North Cork studying in Galway, to a man/woman they maintain the new roads already in place have made a huge difference to their travel times, they also maintain the new sections which you've mentioned resemble ghost roads anytime they drive it.

So I disagree with your observation that small bypasses of the worst bottlenecks won't make much of a difference. From my own experience on the M8, when the bottlenecks at Fermoy & Cashel in particular were eliminated years before the whole motorway was completed, it made a big difference to my journey times despite smaller bottlenecks still being present.

galwayrush · 07-08-2011 3:29pm

A dual carriageway from Tuam linking directly to the to the Galway outer bypass would be more practical .

07-08-2011 8:09pm

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Why should we split the thread? we're very much on topic besides some people fixating on Tralee and we're discussing individual points related overall to the M17/18 scheme.

No one is forcing you to read it, or stopping you from contributing with I'm sure some scintillating posts of your own so don't bother moaning about how boring it is.

You want short and sharp posts? jog on over to After Hours.

My post was not directed at you so no need to get personal.

I come to this thread to see news / information etc about the M17/18. There's several threads on this board discussing the merits of different types of roads and investments etc. so why not take the discussion there instead.

mayo23 · 09-08-2011 8:03am

Motorways are meant primarily for long distance traffic. The M17/ M18 would need to serve this purpose as well as being a commuter route (especially the M17). Building standalone bypasses on routes that are going to have motorways on them anyway doesn't make sense. Enfield and Loughrea are prime examples - getting a bypass AND a bypass-of-a-bypass (motorway) within 5 years.

What should be done is cut the bureaucracy and split the motorway sections. Why can't the government legislate for that? That way more can be added to the motorway as more money is found, and the route will improve slowly but surely, instead of waiting 10 years then building it all in one go.

Castleisland didn't need a 2+2 dual carraigeway as a bypass. Thats just politics gone mad. I don't know about Tralee, I haven't been there in years. But these are the priorities imo, in no particular order:

-Newlands Cross upgrade
-M17 and Tuam bypass (more so than the M18, as a commuter route)
-M18
-M20
-Cork SRR

veryangryman · 09-08-2011 9:01am

mayo23 wrote: »

Motorways are meant primarily for long distance traffic. The M17/ M18 would need to serve this purpose as well as being a commuter route (especially the M17). Building standalone bypasses on routes that are going to have motorways on them anyway doesn't make sense. Enfield and Loughrea are prime examples - getting a bypass AND a bypass-of-a-bypass (motorway) within 5 years.

In the case of Enfield and Loughrea, these were there as sticking plasters before the motorway projects kicked in. And were very welcome when they arrived. Loughrea still (with 2 bypasses) is choked with traffic most days.

That said, theres alot of cold feet to this idea since that "dont bypass the bypass" looney crowd in Monaghan got into gear. Varadakar should publicly call them morons and turn the first sod, perhaps sticking a middle finger up to them at the same time (he'd get my vote then!)

mk6705 · 09-08-2011 12:51pm

mayo23 wrote: »

Castleisland didn't need a 2+2 dual carraigeway as a bypass. Thats just politics gone mad. I don't know about Tralee, I haven't been there in years. But these are the priorities imo, in no particular order:

Yes. Castleisland should have been left with half hour hold-ups. Or maybe we should have built a WS2 instead. It would have been a tiny, insignificant bit cheaper yet slower. Or maybe it shouldn't have been built at all, even though it's one of the cheapest road schemes built in recent years. NOT building this as 2+2 would be short-sighted and a waste of money.

M17/M18 scheme: should it be built?

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