Laggy monitors and the future of the irish fighting game scene

Doctor DooM · 03-08-2011 1:34pm

chunkis wrote: »

Doom the monitors at doc are crap they need to be changed. Also Why would you have to bring up the one time i made a mistake? Mistakes happen, what about all the times i came through for the community and ran good events? What about those times?

I'm being fair Chunkis. the launch party was an amazing boon, and I know everyone's greatful for the t shirts etc you got from Capcom. It's nice to be treated like a grown up scene every now and then

But you have to accept you did major, major damage the last tournament you ran. I spent weeks sorting things out behind the scenes, and lost so much cash playing good samaritan people were talking about doing a fund raiser for me. You can't expect me to sit here in the forum and community I have been at the heart of for so long and risk that happening again without even bringing it up.

EDIT: Just to clarify- I am not having a go at you Chunkis. I am saying, if we do this, we do it right, and slow, and considered, or not at all. Because we're doing well and I don't think we should let our selves be set back that way again.

Vyze · 03-08-2011 1:44pm

I haven't played on many tournaments down south. The only ones I have have been BB where a tiny bit of lag on a monitor makes very little difference. Is it really as bad as chunkis is making out or is it a little baww session?

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Vyze, I could do a mickey mouse stream tonight if I feel like it. Have done a few times. But if this is something we want international attention for, mickey mouse is not good enough.

Q-Con didn't seem too pushed about SF this year, that's why there wasn't much love from the republic.

Aye for something that you wanna promote on SBO/Evo levels, a wee ManyCam stream is no good, but I wanted to throw that out there as a place people can start on. Maybe if there's some tournaments where the equipment isn't there, it's a cheap way to get some kind of basic stream on the go.

As for Q-Con SF, it was basically all down to timetabling, although we did get a fair number of players in the end anyway.

It would've been a case of A) running it on the slot it got,

running it on Sat evening when a lot of players wouldn't be able to enter, C) forcing it to clash with another major fighting game. Given that MVC3 was the new hotness at the time, I wanted to give it at least a single tournament to shine before it died off!

edit: Also yeah chunkis was like Dick Dastardly last time!

Sairus · 03-08-2011 1:55pm

ayjayirl wrote: »

and thats before Sai starts the scene in Galway .

I'm pretty sure I have enough to keep me going down here for the time being thank you very much :pac:

On Topic:

I honestly don't think we are prepared for a large scale international event, even on a purely population level.
The Evo Qualifier was the biggest event we've ran (apologies if CxC or something else was larger, I'm out of the loop with yee guys up there) and that barely scraped 60 people. Admittedly, there were a few people who didn't show because they had no interest in the Evo ticket itself, but I can't see that being enough to sustain something bigger on the scale being proposed here.

I am totally for the idea of a large scale tournament, but I would quietly place aside any notion that there would be any decent foreign contingent at the event until at least one dedicated event has been run. I imagine there'd be a token group of UK players from across the Channel, but nothing major.

At the rate that we're dredging up new players across various games I could see us easilly being able to run a large single day, if not a full weekend next Summer, and then probably use that as a springboard to garner a decent international presence the following year.
Two years may seem like an awful long time to be planning these sorts of things, but realistically I can't see it happening much sooner than that.

On a venue basis, I don't think the Exchange would be viable as a venue for this sort of endeavour. AyJay proved all of us doubters wrong when he said it would comfortably fit the Evo Qualifier, but it does not have the feel of a proper event venue if you get my meaning.

For funding such an event a series of tournament like the Road to Evo yoke they ran in the states could be done. Slightly larger entry fees into the tournaments, with the extra being put into a Big Damn Tournament fund.

UberPrinny_Baal · 03-08-2011 2:34pm

I don't know the history re: Doom and Chunkis.

My only issue with this topic is the difference between

"Lads you know what you should do..."

and

"Lads you know what I will do..."

One is useless, one is awesome.

It's the people who say the latter that we owe the scene(s) to.

Placebo · 03-08-2011 2:55pm

ayjayirl wrote: »

Hi Frank,
Aj

HOLA !

ayjayirl wrote: »

except for people who move away to Manchester for no good reason.

i moved to find myself ! and get better at street fighter. I will return a champion.

Regarding the monitors, which seems to be an issue of some sort here. I was not involved in the selection process, however they were not bought just for the sake of it. There was a huge discussion and speculation regarding cost/size/transport issues and storage.

While nice fast paced, big LCD's sound great, think about the storage and cost. We got lucky with exchange and thankful do store them there - as far as i know.

An alternative here would be people bringing their laptops. If they are above the required spec, then there will be no lag, no need for tv's and no need to bring xbox's. It will be quick and clean and there will be no ps3/xbox division.

Theres a few people that already have/bring laptops, perhaps we can start integrating them into tournaments.

Aside from that, i think Ireland demographic and culture differs severely from the the states/USA for example. Everyone drives everywhere over there, so attendance at events is always solid. Here its a different story, the public transport is also slightly unpredictable. + with parking fees and pains in the city center - Overall it seems like a much better idea to stay at home and wake up ultra A-trak on XBL.

Saying that, the main focus should be to continue recruiting fresh blood and moulding ireland into a solid fighting community. [website/posters/local tournaments/videos]

Doctor DooM · 03-08-2011 3:19pm

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

My only issue with this topic is the difference between

"Lads you know what you should do..."

and

"Lads you know what I will do..."

Q, as they say, FT.

chunkis · 03-08-2011 3:51pm

Doom it seems like your always having a go at me, your trying to put me down at every turn and AJ your jumping in on me too like ive never done anything like this before, saying that i can`t organise and that i don`t share the same vision as everybody else, of course i do.

I want our scene to get better as much as anybody else, but sometimes it needs a little kick, and if you really think about the times i got involved with organising in the irish scene its got better, like the launch event where i got capcom to give us copies of the game before it was realsed, i mean that was the best tournament ireland had seen because it made capcom take notice of us and acknowledge us as a community and it was such a fun event to be apart of, it really put us on the map. Then going to cannes and then svb and then the first irish evo qualifing tournament, as well as the marvel launch event, i mean ive done a lot for this community and i don`t ask for anything in return, i don`t even ask for a thank you.

So its very unfair to say that that i don`t do anything for the scene.

Doctor DooM · 03-08-2011 4:09pm

chunkis wrote: »

Doom it seems like your always having a go at me, your trying to put me down at every turn and AJ your jumping in on me too like ive never done anything like this before, saying that i can`t organise and that i don`t share the same vision as everybody else, of course i do.

I want our scene to get better as much as anybody else, but sometimes it needs a little kick, and if you really think about the times i got involved with organising in the irish scene its got better, like the launch event where i got capcom to give us copies of the game before it was realsed, i mean that was the best tournament ireland had seen because it made capcom take notice of us and acknowledge us as a community and it was such a fun event to be apart of, it really put us on the map. Then going to cannes and then svb and then the first irish evo qualifing tournament, as well as the marvel launch event, i mean ive done a lot for this community and i don`t ask for anything in return, i don`t even ask for a thank you.

So its very unfair to say that that i don`t do anything for the scene.

I am not saying you don't do anything. I specifically said thats not the case. I am saying rushing into things and laying down the law isn't going to help things along.

What happened last time is what happens when you do.

ayjayirl · 03-08-2011 4:17pm

chunkis wrote: »

Doom it seems like your always having a go at me, your trying to put me down at every turn and AJ your jumping in on me too like ive never done anything like this before, saying that i can`t organise and that i don`t share the same vision as everybody else, of course i do.

I want our scene to get better as much as anybody else, but sometimes it needs a little kick, and if you really think about the times i got involved with organising in the irish scene its got better, like the launch event where i got capcom to give us copies of the game before it was realsed, i mean that was the best tournament ireland had seen because it made capcom take notice of us and acknowledge us as a community and it was such a fun event to be apart of, it really put us on the map. Then going to cannes and then svb and then the first irish evo qualifing tournament, as well as the marvel launch event, i mean ive done a lot for this community and i don`t ask for anything in return, i don`t even ask for a thank you.

So its very unfair to say that that i don`t do anything for the scene.

Bollocks! I ain't jumping in on anything. I merely disagree with your point and highlighted that its easy to say do this and harder to actually do it which resulted in an alternative point of view - One that I believe would be better.

BTW Chunkis, I am not one for tip toeing or implying things, if I have something to say, I will say it...... I don't know where you get the wounded soldier act from and your spiel on how much you have done is replicated through out the community with many different people for many different things. A different perspective is something valued, not ridiculed.

As for your competence in being able to run anything - I don't really think anyone said you couldn't, I think my point reflected my opinion that you shouldn't given that result of the last one. Its nothing personal Chunkis, sorry if you think it is.

Aj

chopperbyrne · 03-08-2011 5:26pm

I'm not 100% on this, but I know Dan did as much research into those monitors as possible and they are supposed to have 12ms of lag.

That's less than one frame. On the budget we had, that's about as good as we were able to get.

I'm all for running a big tournament, but as Sairus, AJ and DooM have said, it needs to be planned a long time in advance and funding needs to be secured (preferably through sponsorship) beforehand.

Liquidswords · 03-08-2011 6:48pm

chopperbyrne wrote: »

I'm all for running a big tournament, but as Sairus, AJ and DooM have said, it needs to be planned a long time in advance and funding needs to be secured (preferably through sponsorship) beforehand.

A year or so from now could probably be feasible for a national tournament and hold the 2012 EVO qualifier (if there'll be one) at that. With another 2 maybe 3 biggish multiple game tournaments aiming for international participation in the mean time to build hype (amongst players and potential sponsors) and for dry run purposes.

Another part of this is the community travelling to other countries and achieving/networking, spread the word this community exists. There's a tournament in Holland around October that looks quality (and an easy excuse for weedheads to make a trip before that ban comes in) and Cannes of course, Dreamhack and probably a bunch more. Maybe pick and prioritise a few and try to organise a big squad of players over to take scalps.

As for the monitors I couldn't hit combos I can hit in my sleep on them things on Saturday but only played like 3 games so maybe it was just rust/because I'm ass.

Dreddybajs · 03-08-2011 7:26pm

The monitors are grand imo (as long as the xbox is set to the right resolution). If someone wants to bring in a crt and Doom can split the connection between that and one of the monitors we could test it definitively.

@ chunkis your replies to Doom and AJ are really off the wall here, you're putting an awful lot of words in their respective mouths.

K.O.Kiki · 04-08-2011 3:57am

There's so much wrong there I don't know where to start kiki. Im pretty sure Orim tested the monitors (or at very least read online tests) and they're fine.

1. EVO is run on PS3, might as well get used to timing now.
2. XGC Sony Tv's are good.
3. Inferno Tv's are crap. Dropped combos are a constant feature on them, and we have the commentary to prove it. And really, the Rock Band "test" should NOT be considered valid - only a Vs-CRT test.

Vyze · 04-08-2011 9:00am

Out of curiousity, why is the Rock Band test not valid?

Doctor DooM · 04-08-2011 9:15am

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

1. EVO is run on PS3, might as well get used to timing now.
2. XGC Sony Tv's are good.
3. Inferno Tv's are crap. Dropped combos are a constant feature on them, and we have the commentary to prove it. And really, the Rock Band "test" should NOT be considered valid - only a Vs-CRT test.

You're not really helping your argument there kiki. You don't drop combos because of lag really, you mis time anti airs/ cant time reversals etc. combo timing is the same.

The rock band test is the best you can do without a serious amount of time and effort.

stev0knev022 · 04-08-2011 9:51am

Trying to time hhs-hhs on the inferno monitors is a nightmare they all seem to have different levels of lag, at least the xgc monitors are consistent in theyre laggyness.

Doctor DooM · 04-08-2011 10:02am

stev0knev022 wrote: »

Trying to time hhs-hhs on the inferno monitors is a nightmare they all seem to have different levels of lag, at least the xgc monitors are consistent in theyre laggyness.

If that's happening, it's because of the issue with the resolution.

Actually, that's probably the cause of this entire argument- everyone knows to check the screen resolution is correct before they play, right? Otherwise you do indeed experience some lag (I can't even tech a throw on them).

bush · 04-08-2011 10:25am

Doctor DooM wrote: »

If that's happening, it's because of the issue with the resolution.

Actually, that's probably the cause of this entire argument- everyone knows to check the screen resolution is correct before they play, right? Otherwise you do indeed experience some lag (I can't even tech a throw on them).

I doubt many people know the correct resolution for those tvs, i have no idea anyway. Whats up with the one with the big black borders? They seem to get bigger every tourney.

UberPrinny_Baal · 04-08-2011 10:31am

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

3. Inferno Tv's are crap. Dropped combos are a constant feature on them, and we have the commentary to prove it. And really, the Rock Band "test" should NOT be considered valid - only a Vs-CRT test.

Hahaha Kiki what?

So people watching a match and talking about it is "proof", but an actual test designed to calculate lag that removes human error is somehow invalid?

That's hilarious!

Placebo · 04-08-2011 10:46am

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Let's return to XGC and run a tourney on PS3s. Inferno monitors are ass, i'm sorry to say. Sell them for something proven?

i stopped reading at XGC, rest of you got troll'd

chunkis · 04-08-2011 12:25pm

Yeah this is a pretty big issue, I played on 2 maybe 3 of the monitors and they were all the same, they were all as bad as each other, I was actually a bit shocked at how much lag was on the screens. The lag actually forced me to choose between picking zangief or honda, its a bad state of affairs when the lag on the screen determines the character you pick in a tournament.

Ive never really cared much about winning or placing high at our local tournaments, but i do care about how i perform on the game and i want to be able to play the game the way i know i can. We keep talking about how we want the level of play to go up and how we want to improve our games, well it starts with the laggy monitors, the lag has to go if we all going to improve and get better.

Its unacceptable at this stage and we need to sort it out, it needs to be done before we even think about any future events or buying podcast equipment or anything like that, but because its going to cost an arm and a leg to buy new screens i think in the meantime we should definitely buy one or two CRTs from adverts and leave them in the exchange and use them for the top 8/finals of all the inferno tournaments, neoempire use CRTs for the top 8 matches at svb and i think we should do the same, at least then the finals will be lag free and there wont be any complaints, its a cheap and temporary solution to the problem at least until we can aford to buy new screens.

Also it might be a good idea to ask the guys in the xgc if we could leave 1 or 2 tvs there as well, i know they might not agree, but there is no harm is asking, loads of people are giving away 14inch tvs on adverts and i saw a few very nice 20inch tvs going for 10 or 15 euros, it would be totally worth it to have a couple of lag free tvs at casuals, especially since 3rd strike is coming out at the end of the month.

ayjayirl · 04-08-2011 1:46pm

Am I wrong or does dropped combo's have nothing to do with lag? Not sure of the logic in picking another character because of lag. Surely, Zangief and Honda are just as prone to lag as the other character - LMAO!

If, as Chopper has mentioned, the lag is 12ms then I challenge anyone to notice less than 1 frame of lag - and consider the following (http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php) Test your response times lads! 12ms - gimmie a break.

Resolution should be set correctly, and if you don't know the correct setting, like I don't, I ask someone there. Not rocket science.

Oh and to the argument that there is lag etc and 'its soo different to at home' - I say could it be a lag thing at home. Are we all crt'ing it up at home? I certainly am not and need to adjust to the inferno monitors...... I need to change, not the TV/Monitor.

This really isn't an argument you can back up with any reasoned logic imo.

bush · 04-08-2011 1:59pm

ayjayirl wrote: »

Resolution should be set correctly, and if you don't know the correct setting, like I don't, I ask someone there. Not rocket science.

The monitors should be set up properly by whoever is running the tourney, you cant really expect people to even know the resolution is wrong.
The monitor that was being used beside the recording setup had big black borders on it and was never fixed from what i saw on saturday

Doctor DooM · 04-08-2011 2:02pm

Was just checking out me vs hound in the exchange (sorry for bringing that up again hound) where I hit 3 combos which rely on 1 frame links and he misses a similar amount. Hound, obviously, has waaaay better execution than I.

That's in the same match. Hound has never once blamed lag for losing. If there was lag, and it effected combos like some people seem to think here, surely he would adapt to the screen quicker than I as the player with superior execution, and my UDK combos would have been harmlessly blocked, my boom-sweep combos too (which rely on a visual hit confirm). During the match you will hear Dreddy talking about how I was hitting them all day.

This argument doesn't make sense. I will repeat again: The monitors are fine IF the xbox resolution is set correctly. I think it's 1280 x 720, but in general I will ask Dan/ Chopper when I get there.

The problem here is actually that we need to ensure all xboxes are put to the correct resolution when we're setting up, which is not something I have been doing personally.

I remember when I first tested the hauppage. The hauppage is well known for the fact it causes zero lag. Yet, I immediately got complaints about it lagging.

Just putting that out there.

Doctor DooM · 04-08-2011 2:03pm

bush wrote: »

The monitors should be set up properly by whoever is running the tourney, you cant really expect people to even know the resolution is wrong.
The monitor that was being used beside the recording setup had big black borders on it and was never fixed from what i saw on saturday

You're 100% correct on that but Saturday was a difficult situation.

ayjayirl · 04-08-2011 2:05pm

bush wrote: »

The monitors should be set up properly by whoever is running the tourney, you cant really expect people to even know the resolution is wrong.
The monitor that was being used beside the recording setup had big black borders on it and was never fixed from what i saw on saturday

Is this bush volunteering to ensure the resolution is set right when setting up a tournament?

Azza · 04-08-2011 2:18pm

You have to be careful going by the manufacturers advertise specs. Frequently they are misleading, be it contrast ratio or response time.

Still obviously the lower the advertise response time the better. But your probably best trying to independently test it, if you have the correct software to do so.

Having borrowed one of those monitors for a week and half, I think they are quite good. I got use to it, its better than my own in regards respone time. But it took me a few hours to adjust. The more I went to casuals in the XGC the more use to the monitors I got, but again it took me several sessions to adapt. You can adapt to anything but I think different people adapt at different speeds.

My home monitor is very laggy, 64ms or 4 frame lag (its a very good monitor, just not for competitive gaming) but I long since adjusted to it. I think people who play the most at home will notice the diffrences between monitors the most.

As for the resolution. Are the monitors 16:10 or 16:9 aspect ratio. The game runs natively at 1280x720 and thats a 16:9 resolution. I think the monitors are 16:10, native resolution of 1680x1050. If you set the game to 1280x720 you will have quite large black bars (your also loosing some side space). If you set it to the next closest 16:10 resolution which is 1280x800 you will get a stretched screen.

Vyze · 04-08-2011 2:20pm

To be honest, most of the "lag" complaints is probably just someone in a different position than what they're used to at home. Execution can drop just from being in a different chair or looking at a different angle to the TV. If the TVs have objectively been tested to have an unnoticeable amount of lag, then players should up their game to the next level and start bringing their sofas from home to tournaments.

bush · 04-08-2011 4:15pm

ayjayirl wrote: »

Is this bush volunteering to ensure the resolution is set right when setting up a tournament?

Ill do it no problem if you really need someone to do it

UberPrinny_Baal · 04-08-2011 4:25pm

So does the resolution need to be changed on:

The monitors
The consoles
Both

and to what for each?

Vyze wrote: »

Execution can drop just from being in a different chair or looking at a different angle to the TV.

The different chair thing is killer. My new couch is far lower down than my old couch, and I wasn't able to make quarter-circle motions without jumping all over the place. I had to go grab a high backed wooden chair from the kitchen to be able to play properly.

Laggy monitors and the future of the irish fighting game scene

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