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Is David Norris Toast?

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Comments

  • #1862
    ThreeTwoOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭ThreeTwoOne


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    While it is true Senator Norris has not challenged any of the facts asserted, that does not of itself confirm the facts.

    Considering the way in which he clutches at straws to defend his character, I think it's pretty damning and confirmation enough that he doesn't challenge any of the reported facts as being inaccurate.


  • #1863
    Bock the Robber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Bock the Robber


    ThreeTwoOne wrote: »

    The internet is awash with tools like yourself

    Stay classy


  • #1864
    ThreeTwoOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭ThreeTwoOne


    Bock the Robber wrote: »
    Thank you. All I'm asking for is a clear exposition of the facts so that we can form a judgement.

    All you're trying to do is be difficult for the sake of it.
    see: pedant.


  • #1865
    HarryPotter41
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    Bock the Robber wrote: »
    It's about the facts of the case. Should we have difficulty accessing them?

    Most likely we would have difficulty, it happened in 1992, newspaper accounts are all you would have in my opinion, either from now or contemporary reports. There may be an Israeli Courts website but as my Hebrew is non existent I doubt I could track it down.


  • #1866
    HarryPotter41
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    Bock the Robber wrote: »
    Thank you. All I'm asking for is a clear exposition of the facts so that we can form a judgement.

    Court finds male guilty of statutory rape, an offence the male pleaded guilty to. Not hard form a judgement.


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  • #1867
    Bock the Robber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Bock the Robber


    And yet, miraculously, some Israeli friend just happened to translate precisely the right document for our blogger buddy.


  • #1868
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    ThreeTwoOne wrote: »
    Considering the way in which he clutches at straws to defend his character, I think it's pretty damning and confirmation enough that he doesn't challenge any of the reported facts as being inaccurate.

    While I agree with the idea that his silence tends to confirm, it never the less does not make it a fact. There are two very different issues the first is the crime Ezra committed, the second is the letters written by Senator Norris. We know quite a lot about the second but in reality very little about the first. Now I also agree the first does not really matter, as our only concern in this country is Senator Norris's actions. But if we are going to discus the first then we should do so with all the facts. Not just newspaper articles. A quote a friend sent me recently.

    "Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them.
    In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know."
    — Michael Crichton


  • #1869
    Bock the Robber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Bock the Robber


    HarryPotter41 wrote: »
    Court finds male guilty of statutory rape, an offence the male pleaded guilty to. Not hard form a judgement.

    Did he plead guilty to statutory rape? Have you a link to support that?


  • #1870
    HarryPotter41
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    Bock the Robber wrote: »
    And yet, miraculously, some Israeli friend just happened to translate precisely the right document for our blogger buddy.

    Probably because Israelis speak hebrew.


  • #1871
    Bock the Robber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Bock the Robber


    HarryPotter41 wrote: »
    Probably because Israelis speak hebrew.

    In which case, maybe they might translate the rest of the trial so we wouldn't have to rely on bull**** second-hand reports.


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  • #1872
    HarryPotter41
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    Bock the Robber wrote: »
    In which case, maybe they might translate the rest of the trial so we wouldn't have to rely on bull**** second-hand reports.

    Why, do you have some doubt as to the fact the case took place? The fact that there was inappropriate relations?


  • #1873
    Bock the Robber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Bock the Robber


    HarryPotter41 wrote: »
    Why, do you have some doubt as to the fact the case took place? The fact that there was inappropriate relations?

    Is there something wrong with wanting to see the original?


  • #1874
    HarryPotter41
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    Bock the Robber wrote: »
    Is there something wrong with wanting to see the original?

    Not a thing wrong but the tone of your posts would suggest that you want to see them as you expect to find some great enlightenment in them that will show david Norris did not do anything terrible.


  • #1875
    Bock the Robber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Bock the Robber


    HarryPotter41 wrote: »
    Not a thing wrong but the tone of your posts would suggest that you want to see them as you expect to find some great enlightenment in them that will show david Norris did not do anything terrible.


    I didn't know David Norris was convicted of anything. I'm asking for details of Ezra Nawi's trial.


  • #1876
    HarryPotter41
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    Bock the Robber wrote: »
    I didn't know David Norris was convicted of anything. I'm asking for details of Ezra Nawi's trial.

    And as you can see, I never said he was.


  • #1877
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    calex71 wrote: »
    No sign of him giving up his Seanad seat :mad:

    there is one law for the straight community and another for the gay community. Norris likes teenagers and supports relationships between very old men and teenagers and nothing will happen until a representative of the gay community comes out and says he is wrong and should do the right thing.

    As it stands it wold appear that the gay community is either staying silent or coming out to defend the indefensible.

    it is a sad reflection of our society that we do not demand his resignation and typical of our double standards. we abhor those who use drugs, yet refuse to condemn Katie Ffrench or Gerry Ryan. Child abuse or an old man preying on young male teenagers is equally abhorrent but only if it is a catholic priest. This country is gay friendlier than a lot of our EU neighbours yet a line has to be drawn at some stage on what is acceptable and what is not.


  • #1878
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    You're not looking very hard.


  • #1879
    Bock the Robber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Bock the Robber


    As far as I can establish, Nawi was not convicted of statutory rape, although many people commenting here have claimed otherwise. This is about establishing the facts behind the case, and not what I or anyone else might find offensive about his behaviour. Too many people here have tried, for their own purposes, to spin the facts of this case.

    People might say that Nawi's behaviour was disgraceful whether it was rape or not, and I would agree, if he committed a sexual asssault on a minor. However, it serves no purpose to change the meaning of the word rape, which is a hard-won concept that had to be fought for both in Ireland and elsewhere.

    To call indecent assault rape is to devalue the experience of rape victims.


  • #1880
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Bock the Robber wrote: »
    As far as I can establish, Nawi was not convicted of statutory rape, although many people commenting here have claimed otherwise. This is about establishing the facts behind the case, and not what I or anyone else might find offensive about his behaviour. Too many people here have tried, for their own purposes, to spin the facts of this case.

    People might say that Nawi's behaviour was disgraceful whether it was rape or not, and I would agree, if he committed a sexual asssault on a minor. However, it serves no purpose to change the meaning of the word rape, which is a hard-won concept that had to be fought for both in Ireland and elsewhere.

    To call indecent assault rape is to devalue the experience of rape victims.

    Some might say it is not clear from your choice of words if he had committed any offence at all. So tell you what, you say specifically what you think he was convicted of - if you cannot, you are not really in a position to quibble with other people believe.


  • #1881
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    Bock the Robber wrote: »
    As far as I can establish, Nawi was not convicted of statutory rape, although many people commenting here have claimed otherwise.

    What are you basing that on? The Irish Independent claim to have the Israeli court records where they specify it was a charge of statutory rape which he was convicted of so why do you think otherwise?


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  • #1882
    Bock the Robber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Bock the Robber


    Pompey Magnus wrote: »
    What are you basing that on? The Irish Independent claim to have the Israeli court records where they specify it was a charge of statutory rape which he was convicted of so why do you think otherwise?

    If the Sunday Independent would release these records we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. We'd know for sure. I have read in various places that he was convicted of indecent assault, and the extremely lenient sentence seems to bear this out. Therefore, for the umpteenth time, I'm asking for a first-hand account of the trial, if somebody can produce it. I don't believe that's too much to ask for. Do you?

    Apart from that eminent paper of record, the SIndo, what's your source for saying that he was convicted of rape?


  • #1883
    A Primal Nut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Asia#Israel

    According to the Israeli Penal Code of 1977 the age of consent in Israel is 16 for any form of sexual relations. A special case arises when a person between ages 14–16 had sexual relations with an older partner; in this case the older partner would be exempt of criminal liability if three conditions are met: The age difference between the partners was less than three years, the younger partner gave consent and the act was done out of "regular friendly relations" and without the abuse of power.

    So, the guy was 16 or under. All media have reported him as being 15:

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/norris-i-was-motivated-by-love-515133.html

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/i-am-not-a-paedophile-says-norris-expartner-2839306.html

    http://www.thejournal.ie/ezra-nawi-rape-conviction-went-unreported-in-israel-192081-Aug2011/


  • #1884
    A Primal Nut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    Bock the Robber wrote: »
    If the Sunday Independent would release these records we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. We'd know for sure. I have read in various places that he was convicted of indecent assault, and the extremely lenient sentence seems to bear this out. Therefore, for the umpteenth time, I'm asking for a first-hand account of the trial, if somebody can produce it. I don't believe that's too much to ask for. Do you?

    Apart from that eminent paper of record, the SIndo, what's your source for saying that he was convicted of rape?

    http://thesystemworks.wordpress.com/links-on-ezra-naw/

    According to all those Israeli links it was sexual assualt or indecent act on a minor.

    The guardian printed a clarification saying that it was statutory rape:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2011/aug/04/corrections-clarifications

    As far as I know in Irish law, it's impossible to rape a man, as rape applies to vaginal penetration. I'm not sure if Anal Penetration comes under sexual assualt or statutory rape, in Israeli law. I don't think it matters really - what Nawi did was very, very wrong either way!


  • #1885
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    THE ex-lover of former presidential candidate David Norris claims he did not know the 15-year-old boy he had sex with was underage.

    Human rights activist Ezra Yizhak Nawi (60) insisted to friends he was not a paedophile and claimed the boy assured him he was over 16 -- the age of consent in Israel.

    An Arab Jew born to Iraqi immigrants, Nawi fought a five-year legal battle, involving two appeals, to avoid being jailed for the statutory rape of the boy.

    However, he was sentenced to six months in prison after a plea bargain was finally accepted by the Jerusalem High Court in September 1997, records obtained by the Irish Independent revealed.

    It was before this High Court appeal that Mr Norris intervened on Nawi's behalf, pleading for clemency and a non-custodial sentence.

    The pair had become lovers after meeting in the 1970s.

    The revelation of the letter -- 14 years after the final appeal -- led to the collapse this week of Mr Norris's presidential bid.

    The Irish Independent has learned that the prosecution struggled from the outset to make a case against Nawi as the victim was reluctant to give evidence against the openly gay campaigner.

    The passage of time between the offence and the appeals process also created difficulties for the Israeli authorities, according to a ruling issued by the Jerusalem High Court.

    Last night, an award winning Israeli director who spent five years filming Nawi for the 2007 documentary 'Citizen Nawi' said Nawi told him he did not know the boy, a Palestinian, was underage.

    "Nawi did not know the age of the boy and the boy told him that he was over 16," said Nissim Mossek, director of Biblical Productions."

    If the above is true, then Ezra would in Ireland not have had a defence to a charge of statutory rape in 1997. But after the CC case he would have been able to run the defence of honest mistake as to age.


  • #1886
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Bock the Robber wrote: »
    If the Sunday Independent would release these records we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. We'd know for sure. I have read in various places that he was convicted of indecent assault, and the extremely lenient sentence seems to bear this out. Therefore, for the umpteenth time, I'm asking for a first-hand account of the trial, if somebody can produce it. I don't believe that's too much to ask for. Do you?

    Apart from that eminent paper of record, the SIndo, what's your source for saying that he was convicted of rape?

    I clicked on to your homepage and find that the tone you adopt there is much different on this subject. Here you are the voice of sweet reason, there you appear to give full vent to your anger and cast comments aoround without being overly worried about sweet reason -
    " My advice to our trolling friend would be simple. ....."
    Just to be on the safe and to avoid attirbuting quotes to you that are not yours, could you clarify that are or are not the blogger ' Bock the Robber' please ?


  • #1887
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    A Primal Nut wrote: »
    http://thesystemworks.wordpress.com/links-on-ezra-naw/

    According to all those Israeli links it was sexual assualt or indecent act on a minor.

    The guardian printed a clarification saying that it was statutory rape:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2011/aug/04/corrections-clarifications

    As far as I know in Irish law, it's impossible to rape a man, as rape applies to vaginal penetration. I'm not sure if Anal Penetration comes under sexual assualt or statutory rape, in Israeli law. I don't think it matters really - what Nawi did was very, very wrong either way!

    It is rape under section 4 of the Criminal Law Rape Amendment Act 1990


    Rape under section 4 .

    4.—(1) In this Act “rape under section 4 ” means a sexual assault that includes—

    (a) penetration (however slight) of the anus or mouth by the penis, or

    (b) penetration (however slight) of the vagina by any object held or manipulated by another person.

    (2) A person guilty of rape under section 4 shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life.

    (3) Rape under section 4 shall be a felony.

    Also as I have posted earlier, if there was no penetration, that is sexual assault, then under Irish law it is and has been a defence to say a person 15 and over consented.


  • #1888
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    However, he was sentenced to six months in prison after a plea bargain was finally accepted by the Jerusalem High Court in September 1997

    The usual form of a plea bargain is that the accused pleads guilty to a lesser charge, so a guy accused of murder pleads guilty to manslaughter. In this case, Nawi was accused of statutory rape, but what did he plead guilty to?


  • #1889
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    Bock the Robber wrote: »
    Apart from that eminent paper of record, the SIndo, what's your source for saying that he was convicted of rape?

    What are your sources for claiming he wasn't? If you are demanding access to the court documents before you believe the statutory rape charge is legitimate then surely it is inconsistent for you to also claim that as far as you can establish "Nawi was not convicted of statutory rape". Just how far have you established that claim without access to these documents that you demand and what more reputable sources are backing up your claim?

    Out of interest did David Norris once deny that Nawi was convicted of statutory rape?


  • #1890
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    A Primal Nut wrote: »
    http://thesystemworks.wordpress.com/links-on-ezra-naw/

    According to all those Israeli links it was sexual assualt or indecent act on a minor.

    The guardian printed a clarification saying that it was statutory rape:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2011/aug/04/corrections-clarifications

    As far as I know in Irish law, it's impossible to rape a man, as rape applies to vaginal penetration. I'm not sure if Anal Penetration comes under sexual assualt or statutory rape, in Israeli law. I don't think it matters really - what Nawi did was very, very wrong either way!
    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    The usual form of a plea bargain is that the accused pleads guilty to a lesser charge, so a guy accused of murder pleads guilty to manslaughter. In this case, Nawi was accused of statutory rape, but what did he plead guilty to?

    That in reality is what Brock has been saying, we do not know.


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  • #1891
    A Primal Nut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    Some of the criticism of the blogger on this case is really strange. I don't agree with his politics but I don't see what he did wrong in this case. He found online that Norris' ex-lover was convicted of sexual assault of a minor in Israel and reported it on his blog - this is what Bloggers do. He did not find or publish the clemency letter, contrary to what his opponents seem to think.

    It was Norris' campaign team and supporters in the Dail who pulled the plug on Norris campaign, not this blogger, Fine Gael, Israel or the media. In fact the campaign team pulled the plug even before the letter was public or the media reported on it, because they disagreed with what Norris did. If his campaign team didn't think it was a big deal, and his supporters in the Dail didn't think it was a big deal; Norris would still be in the race. He would have lost some votes; but judging by the reaction of people here and on other forums, he still had a good chance of winning.

    If the Norris supporters want to blame anyone for stopping him from being president it should be his supporters who stopped supporting him. The blogger is just some guy who came across some hebrew articles online and posted about them.


This discussion has been closed.
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