Is David Norris Toast?

fitz · 02-08-2011 02:40PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Very good find. I haven't been able to check the docs yet but looked at them there now and I'm now convinced he has done nothing wrong.

I'm not putting forward a defense or otherwise of his actions, I just went to read the letters myself so I was properly informed, and it just seemed jarringly obvious that he's being roundly condemned for using State paper when it looks like he didn't.

I wonder how many people calling for his head have actually read it in full. I'm surprised anyone reading it would not notice the fact they were separate documents in one PDF.

ULMarksman · 02-08-2011 02:40PM

Firstly, David Norris wrote a letter of Character for someone he know well, It never denied that the incident happened, it said it was out of character and entrapment as his ex claimed he didn't know the lad was 15. If the lad was a year older it would have been legal. Also I do believe that Norris was acting on the belief that the Israel govt or officials would do anything to discredit his ex partner because of his work with Palestine. It was a error of judgement to use his office headed paper.

Higgins seconds a motion supporting Ezra against another charge after the above took place in the same belief that it was a trumped up charge.

Gay Mitchell makes representation for lenience - RT News (Fine Gael's Spokesman on Foreign Affairs, Gay Mitchell, has written to the Governor of Florida in the US, asking him to take anti-abortionist Paul Hill off death row.

A former Presbyterian Minister, Hill was convicted of the murder of two people outside an abortion clinic in 1994.

He is due to be executed today by lethal injection. Gay Mitchell says that Hill committed a senseless crime, but that executing him only perpetuates the cycle of taking life.

For his part, Hill says that the state is making him a martyr and he is looking forward to dying for his cause.)

So does that mean that if David Norris should resign and pull out of the presidential race then so should Higgins and Mitchell.

FreudianSlippers · 02-08-2011 02:41PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Perhaps you should read them?

I did.

hestia · 02-08-2011 02:42PM

DJCR wrote: »

Both true of course..... I was just mearly relating to the fact that it isn't just his core supporters that want him to keep going. That's the bit that surprised me..... I would have thought overall the support would have dropped, especially with his main campaign team jumping overboard.

Could that suggest that Irish people feel it's up to the electorate to judge him? If so, it'd renew my diminishing faith in the public.

Judgement Day · 02-08-2011 02:47PM

ULMarksman wrote: »

Firstly, David Norris wrote a letter of Character for someone he know well, It never denied that the incident happened, it said it was out of character and entrapment as his ex claimed he didn't know the lad was 15. If the lad was a year older it would have been legal. Also I do believe that Norris was acting on the belief that the Israel govt or officials would do anything to discredit his ex partner because of his work with Palestine. It was a error of judgement to use his office headed paper.

Higgins seconds a motion supporting Ezra against another charge after the above took place in the same belief that it was a trumped up charge.

Gay Mitchell makes representation for lenience - RT News (Fine Gael's Spokesman on Foreign Affairs, Gay Mitchell, has written to the Governor of Florida in the US, asking him to take anti-abortionist Paul Hill off death row.

A former Presbyterian Minister, Hill was convicted of the murder of two people outside an abortion clinic in 1994.

He is due to be executed today by lethal injection. Gay Mitchell says that Hill committed a senseless crime, but that executing him only perpetuates the cycle of taking life.

For his part, Hill says that the state is making him a martyr and he is looking forward to dying for his cause.)

So does that mean that if David Norris should resign and pull out of the presidential race then so should Higgins and Mitchell.

I've plenty of stuff on Higgins - mainly in regard for his favouritism in dispensing lottery funding - but I will hold off until the Norris episode is over. Mary Davis looks like the only one worth voting for now.

Saint Ruth · 02-08-2011 02:52PM

Judgement Day wrote: »

I've plenty of stuff on Higgins - mainly in regard for his favouritism in dispensing lottery funding - but I will hold off until the Norris episode is over. Mary Davis looks like the only one worth voting for now.

You can start on Higgins so, because it is over:

David Norris pulls out of race to be the next President

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/david-norris-pulls-out-of-race-to-be-the-next-president-2837579.html

Really, this hysterical "smear" stuff is ridiculous. If any other Presidential candidate wrote a letter with an official letterhead to a foreign state, asking for clemancy for their lover who'd raped a 15 year old boy, do you think it wouldn't impact their Presidential Prospects????

hestia · 02-08-2011 03:00PM

You would hope there would be enough senators with the courage to put it the public vote; to take on board the moral nuances and grey areas that underpin statutory rape, to weigh up the man's record against his error of judgement and his naive loyalty and love that blinded him to the consequences of his actions. It's hard not to feel for him. A sad day.

Messi2 · 02-08-2011 03:01PM

Great news. Realistically we couldn't have had a homosexual president, it would have caused too many problems and would have been just wrong for the country.

fitz · 02-08-2011 03:02PM

Saint Ruth wrote: »

You can start on Higgins so, because it is over:

David Norris pulls out of race to be the next President

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/david-norris-pulls-out-of-race-to-be-the-next-president-2837579.html

Really, this hysterical "smear" stuff is ridiculous. If any other Presidential candidate wrote a letter with an official letterhead to a foreign state, asking for clemancy for their lover who'd raped a 15 year old boy, do you think it wouldn't impact their Presidential Prospects????

I'm not saying he was right to plead for clemency, but you should really look at the letters. It's pretty clear he didn't use a State letterhead for the clemency plea, and a lot of the indignation about this seems to revolve around that issue.

FreudianSlippers · 02-08-2011 03:03PM

fitz wrote: »

I'm not going to get into arguing one side or the other, but the one thing I've found a bit odd is that people seem to have not noticed that there are two letters. One was a character reference, which looks like it was sent before/during the trial, sent on headed paper in January 1997. The letter pleading for clemency looks to have been sent on unheaded paper in August 1997.

The fact that both documents look like they've been scanned concurrently into the one PDF file seems to be creating the impression that it was all the one, and so second letter looks like it was on headed paper.

Here's the file:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0730/norrisletter.pdf

What do people think?

Saint Ruth wrote: »

You can start on Higgins so, because it is over:

David Norris pulls out of race to be the next President

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/david-norris-pulls-out-of-race-to-be-the-next-president-2837579.html

Really, this hysterical "smear" stuff is ridiculous. If any other Presidential candidate wrote a letter with an official letterhead to a foreign state, asking for clemancy for their lover who'd raped a 15 year old boy, do you think it wouldn't impact their Presidential Prospects????

I'm guessing you didn't click on the above link.

Statutory rape also btw.

InigoMontoya · 02-08-2011 03:04PM

DJCR wrote: »

Liveline 10 min poll now, Should Norris continue with the campaign, text Y or N

Just finished:-

Liveline poll: Should Norris continue - Yes 8,758 (45%) No 10,844 (55%)

Have to say this really surprised me.

He only had 25% support last week, yet he appears to have done rather better here and one would have expected the FG/LAB faithful to do their duty here?

DJCR wrote: »

Both true of course..... I was just mearly relating to the fact that it isn't just his core supporters that want him to keep going. That's the bit that surprised me..... I would have thought overall the support would have dropped, especially with his main campaign team jumping overboard.

This result shows little except the uselessness of this kind of poll.

In this case, I would suggest that Norris supporters might currently be more motivated to use their phone than his opponents, who probably reckon his campaign is fecked anyway.

hotmail.com · 02-08-2011 03:05PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Planning and Development Bill 1999
Illegal Immigrants (Trafficking) Bill 1999
Section 24 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 2001
Health (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2004
Criminal Justice Bill 2007
Defamation Bill 2006
Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 2009
Credit Institutions (Stabilisation) Bill 2010

All invoked Council of State powers to begin in Re Art 26 proceedings, some were signed without referral.

You're wrong about the president because you simply don't understand separation of powers and would prefer to make this issue about something which you have no chance of convincing me otherwise.

Unless you have any further desire to derail this thread further I think I'll just leave it there and continue with my knowledge that I'm pretty well versed in the Constitution of this (and other) countries and the powers of the President.

She referred 3 of those to the supreme court, 3 not 8 which you said.

Convening the Council of State is not the same as referring a bill to the supreme court.

I couldn't give a toss about your knowledge of the constitution and you can boast about it all ya like...but the presidency in Ireland is fundamentally a ceremonial arm of the state. Mentioning "separation of powers" is legal speak to look impressive.

mikom · 02-08-2011 03:06PM

Messi2 wrote: »

Great news. Realistically we couldn't have had a homosexual president, it would have caused too many problems and would have been just wrong for the country.

Why would a homosexual president be just wrong for this country?

Saint Ruth · 02-08-2011 03:06PM

hestia wrote: »

You would hope there would be enough senators with the courage to put it the public vote; to take on board the moral nuances and grey areas that underpin statutory rape, to weigh up the man's record against his error of judgement and his naive loyalty and love that blinded him to the consequences of his actions. It's hard not to feel for him. A sad day.

Funny how there are "nuances and grey areas" when it comes to David Norris, but it's all black and white when it comes to the Catholic Church...

Elmo · 02-08-2011 03:08PM

I wouldn't have voted for Norris but I do think he should stand.

Messi2 · 02-08-2011 03:09PM

mikom wrote: »

Why would a homosexual president be just wrong for this country?

Lets be honest, his views are completely different to the rest of the country. His "normal" is not the normal.

Wolfe Tone · 02-08-2011 03:09PM

Yes, he is toast.

JonathanAnon · 02-08-2011 03:10PM

Any update from the press conference?

murrayp4 · 02-08-2011 03:11PM

He has withdrawn from the race

Saint Ruth · 02-08-2011 03:11PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm guessing you didn't click on the above link.

Statutory rape also btw.

I didn't. I was reading bottom up.

Now I have. It's outragrous that David Norris used official Seanad letterpaper to recommend a good plumber!

It's a pity that we won't be able to see how many votes he would have got...

hotmail.com · 02-08-2011 03:11PM

Messi2 wrote: »

Great news. Realistically we couldn't have had a homosexual president, it would have caused too many problems and would have been just wrong for the country.

This is what you call homophobia.

What does his sexual orientation have to do with anything?

Sheeesh.

Elmo · 02-08-2011 03:11PM

Messi2 wrote: »

Lets be honest, his views are completely different to the rest of the country. His "normal" is not the normal.

Other than his sexuality in what other areas is he not "normal"???? BTW is quite conservative in many areas.

hotmail.com wrote: »

What does his sexual orientation have to do with anything?

Many people would have voted against and for him purely on this basis of his sexual orientation, which is wrong you should vote for whom you think is good.

FreudianSlippers · 02-08-2011 03:12PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

She referred 3 of those to the supreme court, 3 not 8 which you said.

Convening the Council of State is not the same as referring a bill to the supreme court.

It all falls under Article 26 powers. You've completely passed over the referendum issue also.
There are clearly 8 which have been reviewed, it's black and white.

I couldn't give a toss about your knowledge of the constitution and you can boast about it all ya like

Cute.

...but the presidency in Ireland is fundamentally a ceremonial arm of the state. Mentioning "separation of powers" is legal speak to look impressive.

The fact that you think "separation of powers" is merely "legal speak" just proves my point that there is a general lack of understanding of this area.

serfboard · 02-08-2011 03:12PM

Norris gone.

RTE wrote:

Senator David Norris has announced that he is to withdraw from the presidential campaign.

Messi2 · 02-08-2011 03:12PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

This is what you call homophobia.

What does his sexual orientation have to do with anything?

Sheeesh.

Oh please play the "homophobia card" over and over again.

He thought it was OK to write letters after a man (his boyfriend) raped a boy. And you think thats OK? I mean WTF

mikom · 02-08-2011 03:12PM

Messi2 wrote: »

Lets be honest, his views are completely different to the rest of the country. His "normal" is not the normal.

Guess a Bolton wanderers supporter could never be president so.

It would have to be Man U or Barcelona.

Side Show Bob · 02-08-2011 03:13PM

Great news, David Norris is toast! And thank God!

FreudianSlippers · 02-08-2011 03:13PM

Messi2 wrote: »

Lets be honest, his views are completely different to the rest of the country. His "normal" is not the normal.

Oh wow... I think you're far detached from the population these days.

Wolfe Tone · 02-08-2011 03:14PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It all falls under Article 26 powers. You've completely passed over the referendum issue also.
There are clearly 8 which have been reviewed, it's black and white.

Cute.

The fact that you think "separation of powers" is merely "legal speak" just proves my point that there is a general lack of understanding of this area.

Sure it seems the separation of powers is on its way out anyway, with politicians wanting to be able to set wages.

JonathanAnon · 02-08-2011 03:15PM

on RTE now.. he's standing down.

Is David Norris Toast?

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