Is David Norris Toast?

hotmail.com

Side Show Bob wrote: »

Why has the minister for forign affairs or the Taoiseach not yet interviewed Norris, seeking a full explanation regarding the use of a State letterhead without consultation or permission of any kind whatsoever from the then minister of Foreign Affairs, to write without even a legal opinion to make such a bizarre representation to the judiciary of a foreign jurisdiction.

If this were the UK or the USA it would possibly even be revered to the police at this stage for further investigation and clarification.

This being Ireland it will be left with the media to investigate, the only question being asked is "should the senator continue his campaign for President" of the country that he has grossly misrepresented in using it's State letterhead and his powerful position of Senator.

Many TDs and senators have written similar letters asking for clemency or giving references to convicted criminals. It was the culture in Irish politics up until a few years ago.

Kathleen Lynch gave a reference to a convicted rapist for example.

anymore

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Seeing that Erskine Childers was elected in this country at a time when the Catholic Church had a firm hold on the people ( don't forget at his State funeral cabinet ministers had to remain outside in their cars because they were not allowed at that time to enter a Protestant Church ) I think that's a remark from the dark ages. For the record, the most bigoted religious comment I ever heard was from a Protestant with regard to Catholics at a funeral in my local Protestant Church. Do Protestants then refuse to vote for someone because they are Catholic?

Indeed in the Cork City of Bishop Lucey's time the Lord Mayorship of Cork ( 1977 )was held by Jewish Councillor and son of immigrants, Gerald Goldberg. Goldberg was a member of FF at the time.

Side Show Bob

hotmail.com wrote: »

Many TDs and senators have written similar letters asking for clemency or giving references to convicted criminals. It was the culture in Irish politics up until a few years ago.

Kathleen Lynch gave a reference to a convicted rapist for example.

And I fear that you are probably right, every correspondence by a TD and Senator should be scrutinised by the Minister with responsibility for the department the correspondence is being sent from, and the equivalent department that the representation is being made to

anymore

hotmail.com wrote: »

Many TDs and senators have written similar letters asking for clemency or giving references to convicted criminals. It was the culture in Irish politics up until a few years ago.

Kathleen Lynch gave a reference to a convicted rapist for example.

There actually is a difference between making a representation in this country on behalf of a constituent and making a representation to a foreign court on behalf of a foreign national who happens to be your long term lover. ( I think some poster on another thread has made this point)

Sir Oxman

gman2k wrote: »

I expect that DN will announce his withdrawal from the presidential race between 2:30pm and 3:00pm at the Hardymount Garden Festival in Carlow
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Senator-David-Norris-for-President/318973847746

Don't think he'll be in Carlow at a flower festival today.
He'll be in Dublin for sure.

hestia

Norris represented his own views only in the letter, not the views of the country. To suggest otherwise is to indulge in wild inaccuracy and hysterics. In it he minimised a serious crime, crossing a line by claiming it to be less serious than heterosexual statutory rape.

In responding to that, senators have proffered different reasons for maintaining their support. Their reasons reflect the value judgements underlying their respective positions. This includes the merits of the broad electorate casting the final judgement. That, anymore, was my clear and stated point, not an attempt to make Norris a man of the people, despite your brass-necked attempts to again distort the point. Do continue with trying to knock yourself out though. You'll get there eventually.

Ludo

anymore wrote: »

There actually is a difference between making a representation in this country on behalf of a constituent and making a representation to a foreign court on behalf of a foreign national who happens to be your long term lover. ( I think some poster on another thread has made this point)

I was just about to make the same point.
They are both wrong IMHO but one is indeed slightly worse than the other.

FreudianSlippers

Seriously, this thread is full of morons it would seem.

This is not an issue of homosexuality or rape, full stop.



The issue here is simple: David Norris misused his position in a public office to attempt to sway a Court in another jurisdiction. This is improper behaviour for a public official, full stop.
I am a supporter of David Norris, but this is a big deal. I think he should apologise and move on and see if the public still supports him as President. He is still, by far, the best choice for the position.. the issue that is in question is a clearly poor decision in the past and the electorate needs to decide if they want an educated man with a clear understanding of the Constitution as President or one of the handful of other idiots running.

n32

hotmail.com wrote: »

Wrong again. Ministers didn't the funeral of Douglas Hyde in 1949.

I know of several Catholics that don't believe Protestants go to heaven. I don't believe in anything by the way, but it gives the idea of the ignorance of some Catholics in Ireland.

Just look at the GAA - a Catholic sectarian organisation.

There is no Catholic bigots in Ireland - please give me a break.

then how did jack boothman , a protestant, become president of the association. do your research before you make sweeping statements

anymore

hestia wrote: »

Norris represented his own views only in the letter, not the views of the country. To suggest otherwise is to indulge in wild inaccuracy and hysterics. In it he minimised a serious crime, crossing a line by claiming it to be less serious than heterosexual statutory rape.

In responding to that, senators have proffered different reasons for maintaining their support. Their reasons reflect the value judgements underlying their respective positions. This includes the merits of the broad electorate casting the final judgement. That, anymore, was my clear and stated point, not an attempt to make Norris a man of the people, despite your brass-necked attempts to again distort the point. Do continue with trying to knock yourself out though. You'll get there eventually.

I can make my points without feeling the need to insult you personally.

anymore

n32 wrote: »

then how did jack boothman , a protestant, become president of the association. do your research before you make sweeping statements[/QUOTE

Dave!

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Seriously, this thread is full of morons it would seem.

This is not an issue of homosexuality or rape, full stop.



The issue here is simple: David Norris misused his position in a public office to attempt to sway a Court in another jurisdiction. This is improper behaviour for a public official, full stop.
I am a supporter of David Norris, but this is a big deal. I think he should apologise and move on and see if the public still supports him as President. He is still, by far, the best choice for the position.. the issue that is in question is a clearly poor decision in the past and the electorate needs to decide if they want an educated man with a clear understanding of the Constitution as President or one of the handful of other idiots running.

Bit ridiculous calling Michael D Higgins an idiot tbh...

hestia

anymore wrote: »

I can make my points without feeling the need to insult you personally.

If you wish to continue with your sloganeering style of argument, there's a long-practiced method around here.. just state them, independent of other posts irrelevant to your cause. Your inability to engage in debate by wilfully and deliberately distorting my points to make your own is grindingly irritating, without any adherence to fair play.

Side Show Bob

hestia wrote: »

Norris represented his own views only in the letter, not the views of the country. To suggest otherwise is to indulge in wild inaccuracy and hysterics. In it he minimised a serious crime, crossing a line by claiming it to be less serious than heterosexual statutory rape.

In responding to that, senators have proffered different reasons for maintaining they support. Their reasons reflect the value judgements underlying their respective positions. This includes the merits of the broad electorate casting the final judgement. That, anymore, was my clear and stated point, not an attempt to make Norris a man of the people, despite your brass-necked attempts to again distort the point. Do continue with trying to knock yourself out though. You'll get there eventually.

It is no longer his view once a State letterhead is used, the recipient in another country does not personally know the senitor nor does he take into account his sexuality.

The sexuality of Norris is of no importance whatsoever, the fact is that he abused his position as a Senator and misrepresented Ireland in using his letter.

Rape is a terrible and horrific crime to be perpetrated on it's victim, and for anyone in a position of power to abuse that power to lessen in anyway such a crime also warrants a thorogh investigation.

Were it a board member of a private company, without doubt an investigation would take place, and disciplinary instruments would be used to sack or remove the individual involved.

FreudianSlippers

Dave! wrote: »

Bit ridiculous calling Michael D Higgins an idiot tbh...

To be fair, you're right.
He does, however, have no education in regard to the Constitution and/or interpretation of same and is a 70 year old man. Is he really the best choice for President?

hotmail.com

n32 wrote: »

then how did jack boothman , a protestant, become president of the association. do your research before you make sweeping statements

I've read all about the history of the GAA and it's close association with the Catholic Church. Perhaps you should do the same.

Sir Oxman

Will people stop using the words paedophilia and rape in the matter of the Nawi conviction?

It's pederasty and statutory rape, there is a difference.

Pompey Magnus

n32 wrote: »

then how did jack boothman , a protestant, become president of the association. do your research before you make sweeping statements

And don't forget naming the most prestigious award in the GAA, the Sam Maguire Cup, after a Protestant also. Definite behaviour of a bigoted organisation.

hotmail.com wrote: »

I've read all about the history of the GAA and it's close association with the Catholic Church. Perhaps you should do the same.

Does close association with the Church automatically mean a person or organisation is bigoted now?

hestia

Fair points Freudianslippers. I agree it isn't about homosexuality. He did however try to minimise the seriousness of the crime, judging it less serious than hetereosexual rape. That's a glaring elephant on the page that will require a tide of forgiveness, pragmatism and courage on the part of the other senators to overcome it and stick with him. That's needed if the electorate are to stand a chance of having an input.

With you on the less-than-impressive list. One person's shining light is another's arrogant, pompous git; just as one person's articulate poet is another's idiot. Mine included. So too was McAleese. Am I allowed to have my own view or do I risk a lynching from the mob? Yikes.

Judgement Day

Still good money to be had over at Paddy Power with 1/20 on David Norris not being nominated (that's a 5% return in one day!) but as I don't believe in profiting from someone else's misfortune I'll give it a miss.

hotmail.com

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Seriously, this thread is full of morons it would seem.

This is not an issue of homosexuality or rape, full stop.



The issue here is simple: David Norris misused his position in a public office to attempt to sway a Court in another jurisdiction. This is improper behaviour for a public official, full stop.
I am a supporter of David Norris, but this is a big deal. I think he should apologise and move on and see if the public still supports him as President. He is still, by far, the best choice for the position.. the issue that is in question is a clearly poor decision in the past and the electorate needs to decide if they want an educated man with a clear understanding of the Constitution as President or one of the handful of other idiots running.

I believe strongly that many people would not be commenting on this issue had Norris been straight.

Going down the "educated man" route is a dangerous one and smacks of a bit of snobbery.

Presidents basically need to know how to shake hands, open schools and plants trees.

FreudianSlippers

Side Show Bob wrote: »

It is no longer his view once a State letterhead is used, the recipient in another country does not personally know the senitor nor does he take into account his sexuality.

The sexuality of Norris is of no importance whatsoever, the fact is that he abused his position as a Senator and misrepresented Ireland in using his letter.

Rape is a terrible and horrific crime to be perpetrated on it's victim, and for anyone in a position of power to abuse that power to lessen in anyway such a crime also warrants a thorogh investigation.

Were it a board member of a private company, without doubt an investigation would take place, and disciplinary instruments would be used to sack or remove the individual involved.

I think we should be clear here that it was STATUTORY rape, not proper rape.

In Israel there are 3 conditions that must be met between 14-16

The age difference between the partners was less than three years, the younger partner gave consent and the act was done out of "regular friendly relations" and without the abuse of power.

The only condition that was not met in this case was the first. It was completely consensual sex and if they were less than three years apart it would have been totally legal.
Norris may well have been correct to write in his personal capacity to ask for leniency, but his mistake was doing so on official letterhead.

Is that an error of judgement? Yes.
Is it a morally wrong thing to do that should ruin this man's reputation? No.

hotmail.com

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

And don't forget naming the most prestigious award in the GAA, the Sam Maguire Cup, after a Protestant also. Definite behaviour of a bigoted organisation.




Does close association with the Church automatically mean a person or organisation is bigoted now?

It doesn't help and it makes it sectarian.

FreudianSlippers

hotmail.com wrote: »

Going down the "educated man" route is a dangerous one and smacks of a bit of snobbery.

Presidents basically need to know how to shake hands, open schools and plants trees.

Not a day goes by that I am not disappointed at the lack of understanding of the President's role in this country and separation of powers in general.

It's comments like this that really drive home the fact that the average person in Ireland is focused on the "every-man" being a moderately educated person and education is perceived as "elite".

For a country with free third level education it really is a shame.

Sir Oxman

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I think we should be clear here that it was STATUTORY rape, not proper rape.

In Israel there are 3 conditions that must be met between 14-16


The only condition that was not met in this case was the first. It was completely consensual sex and if they were less than three years apart it would have been totally legal.
Norris may well have been correct to write in his personal capacity to ask for leniency, but his mistake was doing so on official letterhead.

Is that an error of judgement? Yes.
Is it a morally wrong thing to do that should ruin this man's reputation? No.

Well, the third condition is probably relevant too.

hotmail.com

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Not a day goes by that I am not disappointed at the lack of understanding of the President's role in this country and separation of powers in general.

It's comments like this that really drive home the fact that the average person in Ireland is focused on the "every-man" being a moderately educated person and education is perceived as "elite".

For a country with free third level education it really is a shame.

I said nothing about an elite, I said it was a snobby attitude.

I understand fully the role of the president, so there's no need to be so patronising.

FreudianSlippers

Nawi was a plumber turned human rights activist... I'd hardly say that would constitute an "abuse of power" - I'm almost certain that exists for people in public office, etc.

FreudianSlippers

Just as an aside, do we know for sure that the letter exists... I thought the Israeli embassy was denying that it existed?

Wolfe Tone

I winder what the other 2 controversies are

Wolfe Tone

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Just as an aside, do we know for sure that the letter exists... I thought the Israeli embassy was denying that it existed?

Have you not read it? RTE have scans of it, and Norris team resigned when he told them about it.