David Norris for President....would you vote for him?

Einhard · 30-07-2011 03:28PM

My name is URL wrote: »

That's unreal. Trust that lot to sink to such levels in order to stop a possible dissenter from getting into power. Scumbags

Surely the most important thing is whether the leaked documents are authentic, and if so, what on earth was an Irish politician doing attempting to use his influence to get preferential treatment for a lover?

I remember a few years back where a FF politician attempted the same for a prisoner in Limerick. He did so on behalf of the prisoner's family, and there was some doubt as to whether he personally authorised the action, but the public were rightly appalled when it was reported. I don;t think Norris should be exempt from similar scrutiny, and especially not because he's gay, which seems to be the default position of some of his supporters.

Biggins wrote: »

As stated already:

If any Irish person was in a foreign predicament - be it your child or mine also - I would certainly hope someone from our own country would look at the situation and stand ground for them, plead a case for them and not just accept full automatic guilt!

Ah yes, the predicament of having engaged in statutory rape. Truly, Norris's partner was the victim in all of this...

If a FF person actually stood up for someone in what they thought was a possible viable cause - and we don't know the full legal intricies of the time, we are only now judging in summarised, less detail review - I sure as hell would have a bit of respect for them, for looking out for someone.
Isn't that their job also?

See above.

Biggins wrote: »

* Did he actually use his position? Did he actually state "I am a political Irish representative" (or words to that effect) at the time?
* Did he actually interfere (and where has this been proven? Evidence?) or did he ask for certain aspects to be examined?

Well, considering it was written on Oireachtas stationary, it's pretty certain that he was attempting to use his position.

efb wrote: »

If this is proven to be true, it is a deal breaker for me. It is wrong and he shouldnt have done it.

No doubt some will use this as a stick to beat homosexuality with.

And some people, will use Norris' homosexuality as a stick to beat those with valid doubts or questions. Both are as bad as each other.

Biggins wrote: »

I would also point out that he wouldn't be the first politician to make a mistake (regardless to what degree) so maybe the first totally innocent, never made a mistake politician can throw the first rock at him!

Ah come off it Biggins. That's really clutching at straws. Are you really arguing that politicians cannot come to personal judgement on the behaviour of their peers? Were you arguing this when it was FF politicians under scrutiny? Did you argue that FG or Labour didn't have the moral authority to pronounce on Bertie? Why is it that, just as with the homophobes, but for the opposite reason, you hold a double standard when it comes to Norris?

Mike 1972 wrote: »

The Israeli authorities of course have an absolutly unblemished record when it comes to issuing authentic copies of Irish state documents.

Another red herring.

Morag · 30-07-2011 03:30PM

mikom wrote: »

http://i52.tinypic.com/219qkxi.jpg

But remember it also claimed Liverpool fans pickpocketed their own dead at the Hillsborough disaster.
And after the recent massacre in Norway it ran a headline "Norways 9-11, Al-Qaeda terrorist attack.

With the details of the 1992 case not being currently available that head line could be an assumption based of the current age of consent and not the age of consent at the time.

Absurdum · 30-07-2011 03:31PM

Senator Norris' former partner was found guilty of having sex with a 15-year-old Palestinian youth in 1992.

Mr Norris and his partner later split, but have remained friends and are reported to be in frequent phone contact.

http://www.herald.ie/news/fresh-scandal-hits-norris-campaign-as-key-aides-resign-2835827.html

Biggins · 30-07-2011 03:33PM

Min wrote: »

I am amazed you are defending David Norris, because if it was a bishop who was pleading leniency after a priest was after having sex with a 15 year old you would be the first one out condemning it.

Yet you change the rules for David Norris.

I would understand a person willing to defend another.
I might certainly NOT agree with them but would see/acknowledge to a degree why they are doing do.

Again, we can only assume Norris was acting a great deal on what he too at the time was aware of the facts as they supposedly were put to him by his then lover.

ejmaztec · 30-07-2011 03:34PM

I get the impression from this thread, that if he does get the job, he won't be going out much because no-one will invite him.

Wolfe Tone · 30-07-2011 03:36PM

Biggins wrote: »

I would understand a person willing to defend another.
I might certainly NOT agree with them but would see/acknowledge to a degree why they are doing do.

Again, we can only assume Norris was acting a great deal on what he too at the time was aware of the facts as they supposedly were put to him by his then lover.

But they are still "great friends" Biggins...

Biggins · 30-07-2011 03:38PM

Einhard wrote: »

...Ah come off it Biggins. That's really clutching at straws. (1) Are you really arguing that politicians cannot come to personal judgement on the behaviour of their peers? (2)Were you arguing this when it was FF politicians under scrutiny? (3) Did you argue that FG or Labour didn't have the moral authority to pronounce on Bertie? Why is it that, just as with the homophobes, but for the opposite reason, (4) you hold a double standard when it comes to Norris?

(1) Sorry, could you make the question a bit clearer?
(2) To repeat myself:

I would understand a person willing to defend another.
I might certainly NOT agree with them but would see/acknowledge to a degree why they are doing do.

(3) Not sure where thats coming from! Never said such a thing I think!
(4) I don't hold double-standard but I do understand that a person might act (stupidly in hindsight) only on what their then lover might put across to them.

Biggins · 30-07-2011 03:40PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

But they are still "great friends" Biggins...

...And I trust your word when you mention that.
If so, its my view that such a relationship might be wrong.
Until I hear words from Mr Norris myself - I have to reserve final judgement.
...Its only to be fair. I would hope some will understand that.

Wolfe Tone · 30-07-2011 03:42PM

Biggins wrote: »

...And I trust your word when you mention that.
If so, its my view that such a relationship might be wrong.
Until I hear words from Mr Norris myself - I have to reserve final judgement.
...Its only to be fair. I would hope some will understand that.

He has said they remain great friends in a good few interviews Biggins.

Would 2 key people in his campaign ditch him if this was over nothing? I think you are scraping the barrel at this stage Biggins, I think Norris should end his career and stay out of public life totally,what he has done disgusts me. He tried to defend a child rapist using his official position to try and get leniency.

He is off in hiding trying to come up with something, but he is done imo.

Absurdum · 30-07-2011 03:43PM

Biggins wrote: »

(4) I don't hold double-standard but I do understand that a person might act (stupidly in hindsight) only on what their then lover might put across to them.

I can't imagine what his lover could possibly have told him about the crime he was charged with in order to make it look like it was something innocent. Was the kid just sitting on his lap, kind of like "money was just resting in my account" defence?

At best, it's terribly poor judgement on Norris' behalf. I don't see how that sort of judgement makes him fit to be President.

Teclo · 30-07-2011 03:47PM

Norris can't plead ignorance on this one, some others in Irish society must also have known...

Haaretz.com

Published 21.10.09

Nawi was convicted in March for assaulting policemen during the demolition of illegal Palestinian caravans in the southern Hebron Hills. Nawi, who has prior convictions for sexually assaulting a minor, illegal use of weapons and drug offenses, has been active for Palestinian rights in the southern Hebron Hills in recent years.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/leftist-jailed-for-1-month-for-assaulting-police-in-west-bank-1.5708

Biggins · 30-07-2011 03:49PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

He has said they remain great friends in a good few interviews Biggins.

Would 2 key people in his campaign ditch him if this was over nothing? I think you are scraping the barrel at this stage Biggins, I think Norris should end his career and stay out of public life totally, what he has done disgusts me. He tried to defend a child rapist using his official position to try and get leniency.

He is off in hiding trying to come up with something, but he is done imo.

I have always tried to be fair and in that regard, what you say has much merit.
I will however, before making an ultimate decision on what way I'm voting (if he even gets on the ballot paper now), wait to hear from the man himself.

Absurdum wrote: »

I can't imagine what his lover could possibly have told him about the crime he was charged with in order to make it look like it was something innocent. Was the kid just sitting on his lap, kind of like "money was just resting in my account" defence?

At best, it's terribly poor judgement on Norris' behalf. I don't see how that sort of judgement makes him fit to be President.

Again, you too have merit in what you say.
Before completely condemning the man and maybe rushing too quick to judgement in this case, I'll await to hear Norris's defence, if any.
If there's none - well, as Min said as such, it could be game over.

Edit: just a further thing I noted - and this is NOT a defence of anyone.
Going on a link provided just above, there was this:

Nawi has in recent months received the support of prominent international leftists, including Professor Noam Chomsky, former deputy attorney general Yehudit Karp and author Naomi Klein.

I did a bit of research on Yehudit Karp alone and found this.

Yehudit Karp is widely acknowledged for her determined pursuit of truth and justice. Throughout her career as a lawyer she has acted with grit in the Israeli and international spheres, to preserve moral standards and to ensure human rights in general and women’s rights, children’s rights and victim’s rights in particular. She has received awards from the Israeli Bar Association for her special contribution to the advancement of the status of women in Israel and from the National Council for the Child for her contribution to the status and welfare of children in Israel.

...Where this leads me is to a case of... I think there is much more to the above Nawi/Norris case than meets the eye that we know of so far!
NOT speaking in regards to any personal mistakes - just that I don't think we clearly know the FULL facts yet.
This alone furthers my fear of rushing to judgement till I at least hear from Mr Norris.

doomed · 30-07-2011 04:10PM

It looks bad for him at least on the judgement front and he certainly has a case to answer but I would prefer to hear his side of the story before making up my mind. In fairness to DN we shouldn't blame him for his partners actions nor make the orientation of the parties the issue.

Either way this probably will sink his chance of winning. Michael D in the lead but with Mary Davis coming up on the rails very quickly?

Biggins · 30-07-2011 04:14PM

doomed wrote: »

It looks bad for him at least on the judgement front and he certainly has a case to answer but I would prefer to hear his side of the story before making up my mind. In fairness to DN we shouldn't blame him for his partners actions nor make the orientation of the parties the issue.

Thats just about where I stand. I hope anyone of fair-mindedness, will understand that position.

Just a further update.

Apparently some argue that it hasn’t been confirmed that the letters sought clemency for the 1992 conviction. Nawi was also convicted during a 2007 protest and convicted of assaulting a police officer despite video evidence to the contrary.

The Irish Mail newspaper said this afternoon that

...Trinity College lecturer Dr Elaine Byrne said that the letters had been leaked, but that no clear recipient is known.

...it would not comment on what it was or wasn’t publishing tomorrow and added that Byrne’s comments are “categorically untrue in every respect”, according to Suzy Byrne of Maman Poulet.

http://www.thejournal.ie/leaked-seanad-letters-show-norris-sought-clemency-for-former-partner-report-190021-Jul2011/

A spokesman for the Irish Mail on Sunday said:
“We will not get into the business of discussing what is or is not in tomorrow’s Irish Mail On Sunday: the only way to find out is by buying it. We have always reported this story, as every story, without fear or favour. However we can say that what Elaine Byrne said was categorically untrue in every respect: and had she or anyone asked us, we would have told them so'.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/c1vq2s

Norris will either come out of this as a clear victim of people trying to knock a good man down or one that made a stupid mistake.

If Norris was seeking clemency for other supposed accused crimes, not the teen one, it might show part of the reason for a still ongoing friendship and the continued support of even an top respected Israel former deputy attorney amid others.
...I await any words from Norris on this matter, to be fair.

goat2 · 30-07-2011 04:48PM

Biggins wrote: »

...And I trust your word when you mention that.
If so, its my view that such a relationship might be wrong.
Until I hear words from Mr Norris myself - I have to reserve final judgement.
...Its only to be fair. I would hope some will understand that.

why did davids two right hand people in his election leave.

Wolfe Tone · 30-07-2011 04:50PM

Biggins wrote: »

Thats just about where I stand. I hope anyone of fair-mindedness, will understand that position.

Just a further update.

Apparently some argue that it hasn’t been confirmed that the letters sought clemency for the 1992 conviction. Nawi was also convicted during a 2007 protest and convicted of assaulting a police officer despite video evidence to the contrary.

The Irish Mail newspaper said this afternoon that
http://www.thejournal.ie/leaked-seanad-letters-show-norris-sought-clemency-for-former-partner-report-190021-Jul2011/

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/c1vq2s

Norris will either come out of this as a clear victim of people trying to knock a good man down or one that made a stupid mistake.

If Norris was seeking clemency for other supposed accused crimes , not the child one, it might show part of the reason for a still ongoing friendship and the continued support of even an top respected Israel former deputy attorney amid others.
...I await any words from Norris on this matter, to be fair.

Sure the Bishops just made a "stupid mistake like.

Biggins he tried to use his position to help a child rapist who was his friend/lover by influencing his trial/sentencing, thats fcuking despicable.

You would make a good spin doctor!

If a bishop did any of this you would condemn him.

Biggins · 30-07-2011 04:51PM

goat2 wrote: »

why did davids two right hand people in his election leave.

Thats a question neither of them have yet answered but as it turns out, they might have wrongly jumped ship too early?
See above.

Biggins · 30-07-2011 04:55PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Sure the Bishops just made a "stupid mistake like.
Biggins he tried to use his position to help a child rapist who was his friend/lover by influencing his trial/sentencing, thats fcuking despicable.

Again, to be fair, I'll await till I hear from Norris, to see what he actually sought clemency for.
For the teen crime that some are saying it was for (but the Irish Mail is now possibly saying is untrue - that is might have been for other political related crimes) or otherwise something else.

UglyBolloxFace · 30-07-2011 04:57PM

later10 wrote: »

Foreign predicament? Are you for real? Sexually assaulting a minor is not a foreign predicament, it's statutory rape.

This man is not an Irish person, he is David Norris's former lover. David Norris used his position to attempt to interfere in a criminal case where his former or current lover was guilty of sexually assaulting a minor.

I would hope that any of our elected representatives - especially those who purport to defend the human rights of all people, regardless of nationality - would first seek to defend and protect the victims, not those who have committed sexual offences against such victims.

Biggins, I normally enjoy reading your posts and actually agree with some of them, but the posts you've been making in this thread, especially in light of the current news about Norris, make you seem like a headless chicken who has no clue what's going on. It's almost as if you're blinded by loyalty towards Sen. Norris.

How can you defend this? The details are there:
- The former partner of Norris was convicted of molesting a child.
- Norris knew about this but apparently continued in a relationship with him and even to this day is in close contact with him.
- Norris used his office and influence in order to help out a mate; he wrote to the Israeli Embassy in order to plead clemency etc.

Now, based on your previous posts over your time on Boards.ie, it is obvious that if, say, we switched Norris for a priest in this situation, you would be up in arms over it, calling for his resignation. Why is it that you are not doing this now? (genuine question, to which I would appreciate an answer please).

Let me reiterate - this man knew that his partner molested a child and was subsequently convicted of this crime; he continued to associate with him (well, that frankly, is up to him; we can't judge him for that); but, now this is the important bit, he used his office and influence in order to help out his lover/friend after this molestation came to light.

I have to agree with everything in later10's post.

Do you still defend Norris now?

mikemac · 30-07-2011 05:00PM

So similar to the Bobby Molloy case who made representations for a convicted rapist. But a constituent after all

Mr Justice O'Sullivan this morning convened a Special Sitting of the High Court to clarify a statement he made yesterday following the sentencing of a man in a rape case.

The judge said he had been contacted on two occasions by people who said they were calling on behalf of Mr Molloy. In one of these calls from the Department of Justice, the judge's home telephone number was sought by a man. The second call came from a woman in Mr Molloy's office.

The controversy which led to his decision blew up yesterday, after Mr Justice O'Sullivan said in court that he had been contacted by someone on behalf of Minister Molloy in relation to a rape case which was due for sentencing.

John O'Donoghue backed away from it so the opposition jumped and attacked the Department of Justice and the Minister, score some points

Fine Gael has said the fact that officials in both Mr Molloy's and Mr O'Donoghue's departments felt it possible to approach a judge suggests that an inappropriate culture prevails and that the Government has not yet learnt lessons from the Sheedy affair.
The Labour Party dismissed Mr O'Donoghue's statement as a classic example of buck-passing and a blatant refusal by the minister to accept his responsibilities as head of his department.

Ahern and Harney played down the issue but Molloy stepped down as Minister anyway.
More point scoring

Opposition parties have welcomed the resignation of Mr Molloy.
Mr Molloy's resignation follows his admission that he had acted improperly by asking an assistant to approach a judge in connection with a rape case.

Fine Gael's justice spokesman, Alan Shatter, welcomed Mr Molloy's decision. He said that, while the former Junior Minister had done the right thing, the events of the past 24 hours exposed the lack of judgement of the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, who had defended Mr Molloy in public.

Labour Party's justice spokesman, Brendan Howlin, said Mr Molloy's actions had reduced the public's confidence in the authority of the State. He questioned the wisdom of the initial reaction to the controversy given by the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach.

Green Party TD, John Gormley, welcomed the resignation but said that Mr Molloy's action was prompted by media outcry, rather than a sense of right and wrong. He said that the Taoiseach, Tánaiste, and Junior Minister initially hoped to ride out the controversy, signalling they had not recognised the gravity of the situation.

So Ahern and Harney accepted the resignation

Both the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste said they accepted Mr Molloy's explanation, and insisted that it was not a resigning matter.

I was trying to remember which Minister had made representations after someone that was convicted.
Realy, much the same happened here if Norris was using stationary from his office to add weight to this calls for leniency

Biggins · 30-07-2011 05:02PM

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

...Do you still defend Norris now?

...And again I state, that if Norris tried to seek clemency for a convicted child abuser, I will most definitely re-assess my support of him.
HOWEVER - there now seems to be some confusion as to what he actually sought clemency for!
Some in the media are saying it for one thing and others are saying its for another.

Thus for the many time again, I'm trying to do the fair thing and wait till I hear from Norris himself.
I refuse to rush to condemn on so far unproven, so far unclear statements.

UglyBolloxFace · 30-07-2011 05:04PM

Biggins wrote: »

* Did he actually use his position? Did he actually state "I am a political Irish representative" (or words to that effect) at the time?

He used headed paper, which obviously contains his credentials. So yes, yes you could say he said "I am a political Irish representative". Otherwise, why didn't he just write on non-headed paper?

mikom · 30-07-2011 05:06PM

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Biggins, I normally enjoy reading your posts and actually agree with some of them, but the posts you've been making in this thread, especially in light of the current news about Norris, make you seem like a headless chicken who has no clue what's going on. It's almost as if you're blinded by loyalty towards Sen. Norris.

How can you defend this? The details are there:
- The former partner of Norris was convicted of molesting a child.
- Norris knew about this but apparently continued in a relationship with him and even to this day is in close contact with him.
- Norris used his office and influence in order to help out a mate; he wrote to the Israeli Embassy in order to plead clemency etc.

Now, based on your previous posts over your time on Boards.ie, it is obvious that if, say, we switched Norris for a priest in this situation, you would be up in arms over it, calling for his resignation. Why is it that you are not doing this now? (genuine question, to which I would appreciate an answer please).

Let me reiterate - this man knew that his partner molested a child and was subsequently convicted of this crime; he continued to associate with him (well, that frankly, is up to him; we can't judge him for that); but, now this is the important bit, he used his office and influence in order to help out his lover/friend after this molestation came to light.

I have to agree with everything in later10's post.

Do you still defend Norris now?

Everyone is jumping on the clemency claim.
I want to see in black and white what that claim was for.
Was it for the sexual assault?
Show me this.

Biggins · 30-07-2011 05:07PM

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

He used headed paper, which obviously contains his credentials. So yes, yes you could say he said "I am a political Irish representative". Otherwise, why didn't he just write on non-headed paper?

Indeed - and I have commented on that matter a number of posts back.

(On a side note, is anyone else finding boards.ie very slow in responding to clicks?)

mikemac · 30-07-2011 05:12PM

Norris was favorite or joint favorite to Michael D last week
And Norris has spent time at odds on.

Jumped to 8/1 at lunchtime

Now the betting is suspended at paddypower and others, probably won't reopen until the Sunday papers.

Must have been a flood of money for Michael D and other candidates if betting is suspended

The people with the money reckon Norris is finished, otherwise the odds would never have jumped to 8/1

johngalway · 30-07-2011 05:16PM

I don't know what's happened besides what I caught on the news and on the RTE website, which isn't a lot. But, these resignations are not a good omen. It's funny the things that once they're out in the public domain will follow a person around, rightly or wrongly. I wasn't going to vote for Norris anyway, in fact for the first election/vote ever I wonder if I'll vote at all.

Absurdum · 30-07-2011 05:16PM

He needs to release a statement, like 5 hours ago, to clarify things before the Sunday papers hang him.

I'm all for change, but he is not the man to do it.

The Left Hand Of God · 30-07-2011 05:17PM

Regardless I hope @UnaMullally Una Mullally and @OrlaithFoley Orlaith Ni Fhoghluand reap all the benefits of using twitter to spread word of their "resignations" from the campaign.

I really do hope it comes back to bite both of them on their asses and no one ever uses them on a campaign again.

Serves them right.

Biggins · 30-07-2011 05:18PM

johngalway wrote: »

...in fact for the first election/vote ever I wonder if I'll vote at all.

I'm in the same boat considering whats left to vote for if that turns out to be the case. I don't support Higgins for a start nor will I ever vote for Sean Gallagher, a quiet FF fan/supporter.

...And I'll state here and now before the papers come out tomorrow and show clearly that he sought clemency for a sex crime - that IF he did and not for a political Israeli/Palestine action - then I unequivocally would immediate withdraw any support for the man.

Its one thing to seek clemency for political related crimes - its another for crimes involving children/teens of a sexual nature.
I wait either words from Norris and/or proof of some kind in tomorrows papers as to what he actually sought clemency for.

Absurdum · 30-07-2011 05:19PM

The Left Hand Of God wrote: »

Regardless I hope @UnaMullally Una Mullally and @OrlaithFoley Orlaith Ni Fhoghluand reap all the benefits of using twitter to spread word of their "resignations" from the campaign.

I really do hope it comes back to bite both of them on their asses and no one ever uses them on a campaign again.

Serves them right.

Una can get back to telling her followers how drunk she is and what ****ty bands she went to see.

David Norris for President....would you vote for him?

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