Beauty versus Bills - What would you prefer?

some_dose · 30-07-2011 03:06AM #1

This is a topic about which I have had many debates with friends. As every person on this board knows, it is inevitable that energy prices will rise in the very near future as oil/gas availability nears its "peak" (which imo is total shite as they usually only exploit a very small percentage of each oil well leaving huge amounts untapped). As a result we will pay more and more for our electricity. However, does it have to be this way?

The west coast of Ireland consistently receives some of the strongest winds on the face of this planet. Already we have some wind farms in place to harness this potential energy. However, a major restriction on the construction and placement of wind farms on land is as a result of the perceived impact on the aesthetics of an area (particularly in western Ireland) which it is believed will impact on tourism.

So my question to the people of After Hours is this - would you rather preserve our "aesthetic" beauty and pay 3 to 4 time s the amount for electricity imported from the U.K. and Europe or would you favour (like myself) building huge wind farms all over the place and eventually be in a situation where we can sell excess energy to other E.U. states?

For example -would you pay 50 euro a month for electricity and have the west coast covered in wind farms (potentially at the cost to tourism but generating jobs and potentially and excess of power we could sell to Europe) or would you rather pay 200 euro (made up figures) for imported electricity from other countries?

Kylo Ren · 30-07-2011 03:12AM

Atari Jaguar.

Kojak · 30-07-2011 03:14AM

Keno 92 wrote: »

Atari Jaguar.

Apparently "Shag Off" is the new Atari Jaguar. You must not have got the memo...

Balfie · 30-07-2011 03:14AM

won't somebody pleeeeease think of the children...

Kylo Ren · 30-07-2011 03:16AM

Kojak wrote: »

Apparently "Shag Off" is the new Atari Jaguar. You must not have got the memo...

I got it. I shot the delivery boy when he handed me it. There is only one Atari Jaguar.

Temptamperu · 30-07-2011 03:21AM

I think wind farms look cool and we should put loads of them up.

gsxr1 · 30-07-2011 03:23AM

Im guessing the most of the east coast will vote Yes. Most having never ever seen the beauty of the west of Ireland.

smk89 · 30-07-2011 03:24AM

Temptamperu wrote: »

I think wind farms look cool and we should put loads of them up.

Plus if we build enough we can sail this country to the Caribbean.

Duggy747 · 30-07-2011 03:33AM

I actualy think the wind farms look alright. Everytime I was travelling up north I'd always look out in the distance to see these silent farms.

They're a damn sight better looking than something like a chicken farm. Those places are pre-made sets for horror movies.

PseudoFamous · 30-07-2011 03:49AM

gsxr1 wrote: »

Im guessing the most of the east coast will vote Yes. Most having never ever seen the beauty of the west of Ireland.

I want them anywhere we can extract a fart's worth of power. In fact, they were building Ireland's largest windfarm 8km out from me a few years ago, and are waiting for funding to finish it, so I'm not just saying to put them on the *cough* beautiful West coast. Anywhere that'll catch a breeze is grand, but we should also get solar arrays in the boglands which are currently without much productive use other than turf cutting.

Oh, and nuclear, we need some of that, too. Just put it somewhere with good drainage and we won't have a Ballyfukushima on our hands. Is there anywhere suitable over in the West for it?

Hank_Jones · 30-07-2011 04:09AM

I really don't think we should be pushing for wind turbines, we'll regret it in the future.

We only have so much land, why ruin it with horrible wind turbines?

Different story if they are off shore though.

some_dose · 30-07-2011 04:12AM

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I really don't think we should be pushing for wind turbines, we'll regret it in the future.

We only have so much land, why ruin it with horrible wind turbines?

Different story if they are off shore though.

It's 3 times the cost to build them off shore which would mean 3 times the cost to the consumer in terms of bills

Pdfile · 30-07-2011 04:27AM

wind farms looks great compared to oil riggs...

Buceph · 30-07-2011 04:31AM

There's been a couple of articles in the British papers about this, and it's been confirmed by some people I know involved in energy engineering. Wind farms aren't the general answer to energy problems, and won't be until we develop a long term energy storage solution, i.e. batteries. Wind farms are ok at producing energy when there is wind, but when the wind drops below 10mph or so they produce **** all. Because we have no way of storing energy from the wind farms when they can produce excess it means we have to have back up energy for when their production does dip. This would be in the form of goal, oil, gas, turf, etc. seeing as we're averse to nuclear. And the thing with carbon energy production is that it doesn't scale easily. The gas, etc. plants can't be running at 5% one day and 100%. They need to be kept going at a fairly high rate. If you look at airtricity they buy a lot of their supply in from regular energy producers when the wind is low. They can only do this because there's the normal supply, which is powering most people anyway. If we went even 50% wind that backup would either have to keep producing and wasting the energy, or not produce and we'd suffer brown/black outs.

The real technology to keep an eye on for the future is tidal energy. We have a huge coastline for such a small country, and a lot of ocean with a relatively shallow water depth. The indiciations are that we're perfect for that type of energy production, and the best thing is tides are absolutely regular and predictable. Much as I'd hate to see tracts of the coast and sea become inaccessible because of energy production, it's a much better bet than going with unreliable wind energy. It's just that wind is easier to do, so it's had more investment (and more return for those investors.) And these investors have been selling a dodgy technology, not selling an ecologically sound and commercially viable product.

wonderfulname · 30-07-2011 04:53AM

The lifespan of a wind farm is only 20 years, after that it needs to be rebuilt or just destroyed, so I don't quite see the point of them with regards where our energy needs will be in 2050.

To be honest the only real option is nuclear, but that has such a bad (and quite frankly undeserved) reputation that we won't see it happening for a long time yet.

some_dose · 30-07-2011 05:11AM

wonderfulname wrote: »

The lifespan of a wind farm is only 20 years, after that it needs to be rebuilt or just destroyed, so I don't quite see the point of them with regards where our energy needs will be in 2050.

To be honest the only real option is nuclear, but that has such a bad (and quite frankly undeserved) reputation that we won't see it happening for a long time yet.

Explain please

wonderfulname · 30-07-2011 05:42AM

A wind turbine will survive between 10 and 25 years depending on who you ask (here's some sources), planning permission for wind farms here comes with the condition that the farm be de constructed after 20, now the idea is that a newer, more efficient turbine gets put up in place of the old one, but who are we to say what the future market will be like?

According to the IWEA (link above);

In terms of the longer term risks the wind farm development, possibly the biggest threat to the industry is future price volitility in the energy market.
It is generally acceptd that while energy prices have fluctuating significantly in recent times, a total price collapse in the energy market is unlikely* in the immediate future; however, recent market sources have suggested that the current price for gas is artificially high and may decline significantly in the future. Also with further wind farm developments the amount of wind generation on the system will increase.

As these generators have zero fuel costs more and more generators on the system will be operating at zero marginal cost. This has the effect of lowering the overall market price. Thus a fall in the price of gas coupled with an increased amount of renewable generation could lead to a significant decline in market prices. Which may jeopardise the servicing of wind farm debt repayments.

*Barring the advent of cold fusion or a similar leap forward in current technology

By the time the current turbines are due for replacement we could see that the industry is no longer economically viable, certainly not for businesses who need to re inject a substantial amount of capital, this is by no means a guarantee, but it does point out a serious flaw in the idea that wind energy is a long term solution.

An example of this happening in this kind of industry is the current state of landfill waste disposal, you may have noticed a crap load of landfills being build about five or more years ago, this is because conditions were created that investors were forecasted to see a return of many times over their initial investment, yet now private landfills are barely if at all viable, they're a burden if anything, hence nobody wants in on the industry, it will be interesting to see what happens when they hit the end of their lifespan.

Guill · 30-07-2011 08:23AM

Temptamperu wrote: »

I think wind farms look cool and we should put loads of them up.

+1

Capt'n Midnight · 31-07-2011 11:04AM

Beauty vs. Bills ?

Since most tourists come from areas that already have wind farms who is to say that wind farms would have any adverse effect ? Maybe tourists would prefer to be in an eco-friendly place, maybe they just don't care.

To suggest that it's tourists or wind farms is very disengenous.

How many places have any posters here changed their minds on visiting when they found out there were wind farms in the country ??

oh yeah there is the whole thing about whether wind farms are economic and would save on the bills :pac:

Potential-Monke · 31-07-2011 11:14AM

Install dynamo exercise bikes in the Joy and make the criminals produce the energy as a punishment for breaking the law.

OneArt · 31-07-2011 11:21AM

I don't think windfarms actually look to bad... They're just big sticks with propellers on them. They look a hell of a lot nicer than nuclear reactors!

EverEvolving · 31-07-2011 11:34AM

We could aim to build the worlds biggest wind farm and use that as a tourist attraction, if people visit the arigna mines then I don't see why they wouldn't be interested in wind farms which are much more aesthetically pleasing.

jacksprat · 31-07-2011 11:54AM

So, from what i see we need to make Nuclear Power Plants look cooler....

Homer: Well basically, I just copied the plant we have now.
Mr. Burns: Hmmm.
Homer: Then, I added some fins to lower wind resistance. And this racing stripe here I feel is pretty sharp.
Mr. Burns: Agreed. First prize. (gives Homer a blue ribbon)

Mike 1972 · 31-07-2011 11:58AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Since most tourists come from areas that already have wind farms who is to say that wind farms would have any adverse effect ? Maybe tourists would prefer to be in an eco-friendly place, maybe they just don't care.

To suggest that it's tourists or wind farms is very disengenous.

Theyve lots of windmills in the Netherlands and it doesnt seem to have done their tourist industries any harm.

Maybe communities who object to windfarms should have their electricity supply withdrawn.

32yg · 31-07-2011 12:37PM

Set up some but don't ruin the whole landscape!

Mike 1972 · 31-07-2011 12:42PM

When the National grid in the UK (possibly Ireland too) was being built there were lots of complaints about those ugly pylons and poles ruining the landscape.

wonderfulname · 31-07-2011 12:43PM

EverEvolving wrote: »

We could aim to build the worlds biggest wind farm and use that as a tourist attraction, if people visit the arigna mines then I don't see why they wouldn't be interested in wind farms which are much more aesthetically pleasing.

This is not actually something we could possibly do, we don't have the funds or the land to contest with the vast areas of land the UK alone have put aside for offshore windfarms, in comparison to countries that are actually taking renewables seriously we're hobbyists.

orourkeda · 31-07-2011 12:44PM

gsxr1 wrote: »

Im guessing the most of the east coast will vote Yes. Most having never ever seen the beauty of the west of Ireland.

Yeah. To hell or to connacht still has some resonance.

whoopdedoo · 31-07-2011 12:47PM

screw nuclear

thorium ftw

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium

WoollyRedHat · 31-07-2011 12:47PM

What about wave power?

Mike 1972 · 31-07-2011 01:18PM

whoopdedoo wrote: »

screw nuclear

thorium ftw

Is thorium not just another form of nuclear

Beauty versus Bills - What would you prefer?

Wind farms at the price of "beauty" - yes or no? 68 votes

Comments