Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

KIERAN2400 wrote: »

I laugh when people say you need 1 Billion to achieve those times above!

Don't laugh, that's how much that IE advertised they were spending on the current upgrade works (no links, just my memory of IEs billboards in Ceannt station in Galway 10 years ago). They've failed to improve the stock and tracks to a point where they were able to keep the previous speeds.

If rail is to survive (i.e. be economical) it has two address two major issues (examples are intercity not local, sorry mods):
Cost - Galway is €45 - GoBus is €20
Timing - GoBus is scheduled for 2h 30 minutes (often takes less), train is scheduled for between 2h 15 and 2h 40m (often takes more time).

The observations on the timings of the buses and trains is from my own experience of traveling between Galway and Dublin of the past 5.5 years. The bus isn't nearly as much hassle, i.e. when I book a seat with gobus I get it not having to argue with some drunk arrogant twit that can't read and doesn't care to get a seat that I have spent money to assure me one.

At €74 for a return ticket to cork, I'd seriously consider flying if I didn't have a car (I do - it's a no brainer take the car).


Given all this I tend to agree with the poster who said that rail is be suited to large urban area commuting, as the intercity passenger and freight services are too inflexible. For freight it can be easier & faster to truck stuff from Tuam direct to Dublin than send it to Galway to get the train.

crucamim wrote: »

runway16 wrote: »

However, I'd like to take issue with your earlier, silly remark about Eirefolk and Ulsterfolk.

There was a need for my remark. The poster, to whom my remark was directed, had insulted me - without any provocation whatsoever. It says in the Bible "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".

Fine, you wanted to get him
Back. Understood.

Was there a need to insult the entire population of the Irish Republic in the process? No. No, there wasn't. Especially during a week when sections of Ulster Society have reverted to rioting, it's a bit rich to be giving lectures to us Eirefolk on our bad manners and alleged love of fighting!

Can we resist raking up the bible talk and north-southery please? That was several pages ago... let it go. Neither part of Ireland can claim to be any better or worse than the other part, since both are highly dysfunctional

I want to read about Metro North and related topics here, thank you.

crucamim wrote: »

I will not answer your points as I do not want to divert the thread. If you want to continue hostilities, please open a new thread on the subject of bad manners and the Eire love of aggro.

runway16 wrote: »

I was actually trying to appeal to your better nature in realising that simply because you had an issue with one person does not mean we In the south all love aggro. Clearly, it has fallen on deaf ears and been interpreted as "aggro".

No point discussing it further with you really.

Re this thread being about Metro, you could have fooled me! It's been all about intercity the last few pages! :-)

Mod
Tbh I'm not all together sure what this has got to do with the topic of the thread let alone rail in this country. Folks If you have an issue with posts please report them using the "Report Post" button.

--

By the way you are missing a fada it's Éire not Eire -- they ain't the same word and don't have the same pronunciation.

dubhthach wrote: »

Mod Tbh I'm not all together sure what this has got to do with the topic of the thread let alone rail in this country.

I thought that I had already made that point.

T2daK wrote: »

half the population will have emigrated no need to build this metro

Rubbish. The latest census shows a booming population in this part of Dublin.

Mayo Exile wrote: »

More kite flying in the Sindo today with regards to the possible (probable?) demise of MN.



Link: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/costly-metro-north-finally-hits-buffers-2829945.html

Utterly clueless piece. I despair at the way the Irish media covers major infrastructure projects such as Metro, Dart Underground, etc - and I say that as a member of said media.

The inability to ask basic questions about the projects is staggering. Reporters and editors focus on one or two points and then become obsessed with them and ignore all other aspects surrounding the projects.

Just take this 'quote' from a 'senior government source'.

"Clearly there is no hope of this thing going ahead. Just watch this space, the review will come out and Metro North will be gone. We simply can't afford it and we don't need it. They will find another way to link the airport by rail, either by Luas or by Dart," said a senior government source.

If some politician gave me that quote, I'd have half a dozen follow up questions from what he said there - questions that are bloody obvious to anyone who actually understood anything about rail projects in Dublin. And then I'd have follow-up questions based on the spoofing I'd no doubt have got in answer to my previous questions.

Clearly there is no hope of this thing going ahead - Going ahead when? Now? Ever?

Just watch this space, the review will come out and Metro North will be gone - What do you mean by 'gone'? Will the project be postponed? Or simply abandoned?

We simply can't afford it - what is the latest cost estimate to the State now? How much will it cost State annually during construction? How much will it cost the State annually over the 25 or 30 years of the PPP contract? Have the PPP bidders indicated how much they are willing to fund? Have they indicated that private funding will not be available?

and we don't need it - Why do we not need it? The population of Dublin has risen substantially since the last census - particularly the population of north Dublin - so how can you say Metro is not needed when the current population figures and projected population figures along the line suggest otherwise? Metro will serve a corridor with greater population numbers living along the line than the existing Dart line or the two Luas lines so how can you say it is not needed?

They will find another way to link the airport by rail, either by Luas or by Dart - The metro project is about more than linking the airport by rail - what about the other areas it serves? Or the overall transport context for Dublin? How can the airport be served by Luas when the reason Metro - which is essentially two connected Luas units - is going underground south of the airport to the city centre is because there is nowhere to put it on the surface that will allow for dedicated, high capacity services to meet growing passenger demand? How can it be served by Dart when the Northern line into Connolly is already at capacity and one the purpose of Dart Underground is to relieve those constraints? Luas and Dart connections to the airport were ruled out more than a decade ago by transport planners due to capacity problems - why put them back on the agenda when the population and usage predictions are actually higher now than the predictions on which those decisions were made? Is this not simply a PR stunt by the government in that it wants to be seen to be 'doing something'?

Instead of asking those questions, the Sindo has simply stuck the quote in a piece without examining it in any way - simply because it suited the agenda of what the paper wanted to report.

That illustrates perfectly the approach of the Irish media to the Metro project from the start - papers and broadcasters have decided we 'don't need Metro' and 'can't afford Metro' and have constructed coverage built on those foundations.

The journalism I was taught and that I practice is that you ask the questions and gather the information and make your conclusions based on what you discover - not decide on the agenda and frame your information gathering based on supporting that agenda.

I don't think a single media organ has yet asked why the Metro project exists, examined the population figures that behind it or look at how it fits into the overall transport and development context in Dublin.

It's an example of how dumbed-down the Irish media has become in the last decade or so. Every issue is looked at from a narrow, agenda-driven angle and no big picture context is examined in any way.

Here's the latest from Transport Minister Leo Varadkar on Metro North as outlined in a Dail answer to Finian McGrath TD last Wednesday, July 20.

331. Deputy Finian McGrath asked the Minister for Transport; Tourism and Sport the position regarding the metro north; if he will ensure same will go ahead due to the potential opportunity to create 4,000 jobs and supporting local joinery businesses; his views on the fact that if he fails to start the metro north, compensation will have to be paid to the bidders, which in this current economic climate is not viable. [21489/11] Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Leo Varadkar): The comprehensive review of capital expenditure which is being overseen by my colleague Mr Brendan Howlin, Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform is currently underway. This review is examining all capital programmes and projects, as regards their affordability, their overall economic impact and job creation potential. A major consideration will be the need to prioritise funding to protect investment made to date and to maintain high safety standards.
The Deputy can be assured that I am fully apprised of how beneficial Metro North can be, for businesses, communities and future development in the North Dublin Region. As you may be aware, I am a former member of Fingal County Council and represent part of the town of Swords, which would be served by Metro North. The benefits of this project are not at issue, the issue is our capacity to fund it.
Metro North will cost several billions depending on the funding model used. In order for Metro North to be built, it will require both private funding by means of a PPP and exchequer funding. With regard to exchequer funding, this will be almost €1 billion during the term of this Government.
The successful awarding of a major PPP contract involving private funding is challenging at any time but is particularly challenging in current circumstances where Ireland has been the subject of intervention by the IMF/EU. Until financial credibility is restored the international debt funding market will be reluctant to lend funds to finance projects in Ireland, the repayment of which is ultimately dependant on the state. It is also not clear whether the Exchequer will be able to contribute its share of the cost in any case. In order for Metro North to be included in the revised National Development Plan 2012 – 2016, both private finance and exchequer finance must be available. The decision made on Metro North, will be made by the Government in that context.
The issue of compensation should it arise, would be dealt with under the agreed procurement terms between the RPA and the Metro North bidders, the details of which are commercially sensitive.

Leo kicking to touch again re any actual decision but both the last part of McGrath's question and Varadkar's answer are very interesting.

What happens if one or both bidders come in with attractive BAFOs that guarantee private funding will be available but govt cancels process in September, either before or after those bids are received?

In such a scenario, will the State have to pay compensation to either or both bidders? How much?

What are the 'agreed procurement terms' between RPA and bidders? And surely such terms which could open the State to any financial liability would have been approved by Transport or Finance or Cabinet before RPA issued initial and final tenders? If not, why not?

Can you imagine the reaction if the State has to pay out a few hundred million euro in compo for delaying or cancelling the project if private element of funding is available?

Absurdum wrote: »

1 job falls within that estimate :pac:

What does that comment mean?

crucamim wrote: »

What does that comment mean?

Up to 2000 = any number from 1 to 1,999.

dynamick wrote: »

It does not take into account the shock census results from two weeks ago when it was found that population in Ireland had grown by 341K since 2006.
--edit--
to see how wrong the ESRI's population forecasts were, listen to an interview with their top migration expert, Alan Barrett, in April this year where he estimates that 35K left the country in 2009 and that a further net 100K people would leave in 2010-1011. (skip to 2:20) http://audioboo.fm/boos/258803-esri-s-dr-alan-barrett-on-emigration-forecasts

ESRI is getting it wrong fairly consistently on nearly everything since 2008.

ESRI would have basing their forecast on CSO numbers. There is a question mark over where the 2011 figures represent a true higher rate of increase, a significant undercount in 2006 or both.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Re Luas to Ballymun, it will never work because the only two routes it can take are via Drumcondra Road, which is too important for cars/buses and has a pinch point at the Cat & Cage, or St Mobi Road which is too narrow.

I dunno about that. Drumcondra Road is wide enough to accomodate both Luas and car. Plus the Port Tunnel makes the argument that Drumcondra Road is a vital access route into the city somewhat redundant.