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Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )
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I really do wish that somebody with a technical knowledge of railway operation would explain this argument about better signalling. How does signalling have any effect on the number of trains per hour which a line can take?
P.S. What I know about railways is not worth knowing so please keep explanations simple with no jargon.0 -
Er, why bother so, must direct buses (aircoach, etc.) to the airport can already do it in 25 minutes. So why waste 200 million on this. Even LUAS BXD would be money better spent then this.
Because politicians have been obsessed with a rail link to Dublin Airport for years, which is why they fail to see the wide ranging benefits of MN.0 -
Er, why bother so, must direct buses (aircoach, etc.) to the airport can already do it in 25 minutes. So why waste 200 million on this. Even LUAS BXD would be money better spent then this.
I assume Irish Rail want it to keep the RPA down. Probably the unions too.
Politicans want to be seen to be doing something as opposed to doing something actually useful. Hence we have the WRC and too much motorway.0 -
DWCommuter wrote: »
Because politicians have been obsessed with a rail link to Dublin Airport for years.
And rightfully so. Passengers using airports tend to have luggage - and often a lot of luggage. For a passenger with luggage, train transport is much more convenient that bus transport - and the luggage is much more secure.
In general, I do not see much need for rail services. But rail connections are important for the following places - passenger airports, passenger seaports, freight seaports and large stadiums for sports.0 -
I really do wish that somebody with a technical knowledge of railway operation would explain this argument about better signalling. How does signalling have any effect on the number of trains per hour which a line can take?
P.S. What I know about railways is not worth knowing so please keep explanations simple with no jargon.
I'm not a railway person but you don't have to be a genius to figure this out. And IMO someone who doesn't know the importance of signalling to a railways system shouldn't go claiming to know everything there is to know about railways.
Signalling at its heart is about knowing where the trains are and where they're going, allowing the correct signals to go to the correct points. Manual systems rely on timetabling for this and when this breaks down things go spectacularly wrong very quickly.
Putting an effective signalling system in place is important for the efficient scheduling and operation of a railway system. Given the fact that we have a lot of single track lines and a choke point in Connolly, we badly need these systems to operate our railways.0 -
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antoobrien wrote: »
And IMO someone who doesn't know the importance of signalling to a railways system shouldn't go claiming to know everything there is to know about railways.
When or where did I claim to know everything there is to know about railways? Why are so many Eirefolk so nasty? Why are so many of you always trying to start a row?
Please try to be courteous and pleasant like us Ulsterfolk. It is easy, if you try.0 -
And rightfully so. Passengers using airports tend to have luggage - and often a lot of luggage. For a passenger with luggage, train transport is much more convenient that bus transport - and the luggage is much more secure.
In general, I do not see much need for rail services. But rail connections are important for the following places - passenger airports, passenger seaports, freight seaports and large stadiums for sports.
Eh..... no.
Rail connections in Ireland should serve a mass passenger need and airports, seaports and freight, should only compliment that.
But seeing as though you don't see "much need" for rail transport, what exactly is your point?0 -
DWCommuter wrote: »Eh..... no.
Rail connections in Ireland should serve a mass passenger need and airports, seaports and freight, should only compliment that.
But seeing as though you don't see "much need" for rail transport, what exactly is your point?
Rail transport in Ireland has usually not been a success. And also in much more densely populated England. The expansion of motorways has probably killed off any faint hopes of a general revival in railway transport. As I see it, the only hope for rail transport is in some specialised fields.
A. Freight by rail - in order to protect roads.
B. Passenger connections to seaports and airports where the need of the passenger to carry luggage makes rail more suitable than buses.
C. Serving Croke Park and the Aviva Stadium on big match days - and this only because the railways are already in place.
D. Rush hour commuters in major population centres - and this only where the railways are already in place.0 -
Rail transport in Ireland has usually not been a success. And also in much more densely populated England. The expansion of motorways has probably killed off any faint hopes of a general revival in railway transport. As I see it, the only hope for rail transport is in some specialised fields.
A. Freight by rail - in order to protect roads.
B. Passenger connections to seaports and airports where the need of the passenger to carry luggage makes rail more suitable than buses.
C. Serving Croke Park and the Aviva Stadium on big match days - and this only because the railways are already in place.
D. Rush hour commuters in major population centres - and this only where the railways are already in place.
Oh dear. :rolleyes:
Successful cities have an integrated, well conected rail/light rail system in place.
For Dublin to be an economic suscces in the long term it needs both MN and DU.0 -
And also in much more densely populated England.
Er, no. Rail transport has blossomed in the last decade in England. I.e. Between London and Birmingham there is two motorway options, the M42 or the M1 & M6. Yet there is an express Virgin service every 20 mins on weekdays and Saturdays and numerous other London Midland and Chiltern services.
The key for Irish railways is now is speed for intercity transport and reliability and frequency for urban transit. If I could get from Belfast City Centre to Dublin's in an 90 mins by rail as opposed to 120 by road. I'd take the rail option, as long as the ticket wasn't extortionate, it was possible to get a seat and the time it says on the ticket I'll arrive, I'll arrive.0 -
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Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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NITransport wrote: »The key for Irish railways is now is speed for intercity transport and reliability and frequency for urban transit. If I could get from Belfast City Centre to Dublin's in an 90 mins by rail as opposed to 120 by road. I'd take the rail option, as long as the ticket wasn't extortionate, it was possible to get a seat and the time it says on the ticket I'll arrive, I'll arrive.
Unfortunately intercity rail is dead in Ireland. The motorways have mortally wounded it and direct non stop private bus services on these motorways will finish it off.
The reality is Dublin to Belfast today takes 2 hours 15 minutes (135 minutes) which is slower then by road (BE is 10 minutes slower) and a lot more expensive.
The reality is that almost the entire intercity rail network can now be done faster by car or about the same by bus (for far less money).
Of course it would be great if you could do Dublin to Belfast in 90 minutes or Dublin to Cork in 2 hours. But the question is, who is going to give us the close to 1 billion euros it would cost to upgrade all the intercity lines to make them faster?
And even if we had that money, would that be the best way to spend it? What would we really gain from knocking 30 minutes off the intercity rail network? Would the same money not be better spent on MN, DU, hospitals, etc.?A. Freight by rail - in order to protect roads.
Freight by rail is dead in Ireland. Ireland is just too small and we really have very little heavy industry that is needed to justify rail freight.
Most freight in Ireland is moved cheaper and faster by road, with little possibility of being disturbed by strike, etc.B. Passenger connections to seaports and airports where the need of the passenger to carry luggage makes rail more suitable than buses.
I really don't see why you think trains are better then bus coaches for passengers with luggage?
It is just as easy, perhaps even easier to shove you luggage in the side of a high quality coach bus, then it is to drag it up the steps of a train.
BTW If Dart is brought to Dublin Airport, the station will likely be much further away from the terminal then the bus station.
And tell me, is the DART which is just going to plunk you in Connolly Station, with all it's lovely steps really more convenient for a tourist then the 747 that stops at most of the major hotels in Dublin City Center or the Aircoach that brings you right to the heart of the city in O'Connell St and then to other parts of the city with no rail transport?C. Serving Croke Park and the Aviva Stadium on big match days - and this only because the railways are already in place.
D. Rush hour commuters in major population centres - and this only where the railways are already in place.
Suburban and commuter rail based mass transport are really the only future for rail in Ireland. Thus the importance of MN and DU.0 -
Unfortunately intercity rail is dead in Ireland.
Although currently Irish Rail are suffering decreased traffic, I have to disagree. After reading an article in Junes edition of the Railway Gazette where there was an article on NIR's future plans. These included the fact that the Enterprise stock will need replacing shortly after 2020. They also stated that they believed it would be difficult to procure diesel traction rail vehicles capable of the speeds they plan for when/if the route is upgraded so would begin a process of electrifying the Northern network, they also went on to state their intent to have a 90 minute journey time on the Belfast-Dublin line. We can not rely on road transportation, and to think it's an acceptable cope out is at best, flabbergasting. Rail patronage was always going to be slightly affected with the building of motorways but we needed motorways to get people and products around. Now we have the roads, and we may not have the capital but this financial crisis won't last forever. With rail investment you must look many years into the future as well, for example HS2 won't be complete till 2026, I think by that point the state could afford upgrading at least one intercity line, Belfast - Dublin (the NI exec obviously footing the bill for the northern section) and perhaps a second to Cork, as it would be an upgrade this would also benefit Limerick to some extent.
Anyway my point is, yes there is a slight blip in rail patronage at the moment but as we recover, rail travellers will return in there droves and when cash is available for further investment, rail travel's time will have come!0 -
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NITransport wrote: »
Anyway my point is, yes there is a slight blip in rail patronage at the moment but as we recover, rail travellers will return in there droves and when cash is available for further investment, rail travel's time will have come!
I'm not so certain. This year we are likely to see the emergence of direct non stop bus services by private operators on many motorway routes including Cork, Limerick, etc.
With the recessionary times, people are likely to take the bus at about €25 return over the train at €74 return.
Once people discover that these coach buses are almost as fast, very quiet and comfortable, with onboard toilets and free wifi, I wonder will people ever return to paying almost 3 times as much?
I experienced this myself recently. I took GoBus to Galway, €20 return (versus €45 via train), onboard toilet, free wifi, very quiet and comfortable and 15 minutes faster then the train. After experiencing this, I'd never bother taking the train to Galway again and I can't wait for such a service to be introduced to Cork.
As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I've watched all my friends desert IR for their cars to Cork which is cheaper and much faster. The only people left on the train are those without cars, but once direct bus services start up, they are gone too, trust me.
So here is the current situation Cork to Dublin:
Car - 2 hours 30 minutes * - about €55 return fuel and tolls
Train - 2 hours 52 minutes - €74 return
* many do it faster, but not legally.
A direct non stop bus service would give us:
Coach - 3 hours - about €20 to €25 return
A future upgrade to tracks would give us:
Train - 2:20 to 2:30 - at least €74 return
Would most people be willing to spend three times as much just to save 30 to 40 minutes? Surely such people are going to be driving anyway.
What benefit is there to our country and economy in spending hundreds of millions in upgrades, just to save 30 minutes off a train journey?
I have yet to hear anyone give a good justification for such an expenditure?
Intercity rail made sense when we had awful roads, when the train was one to two hours faster then by road and the roads were so dangerous.
But intercity rail really doesn't make sense in such a small country like Ireland when you have such high quality roads.
Sorry I just don't see a future for intercity rail in Ireland. It just doesn't make logical success.0 -
So here is the current situation Cork to Dublin:
Car - 2 hours 30 minutes * - about €55 return fuel and tolls
Train - 2 hours 52 minutes - €74 return
* many do it faster, but not legally.
A direct non stop bus service would give us:
Coach - 3 hours - about €20 to €25 return
A future upgrade to tracks would give us:
Train - 2:20 to 2:30 - at least €74 return
Would most people be willing to spend three times as much just to save 30 to 40 minutes? Surely such people are going to be driving anyway.
What benefit is there to our country and economy in spending hundreds of millions in upgrades, just to save 30 minutes off a train journey?
I have yet to hear anyone give a good justification for such an expenditure?
Don't forget you can fly to cork too. It only takes 50min.Prime Time did an investigation last week . They left at 7.30am from RTE studios and made a 8.40am flight with plenty of time to spare.
So that would make it 2hrs to leave RTE or anywhere else in Dublin really and be be in Cork Airport. Giving ample time to get anywhere in Cork in well under 3hrs.
See here at around 18min
http://www.rte.ie/news/av/2011/0623/primetime.html#0 -
I'm not so certain. This year we are likely to see the emergence of direct non stop bus services by private operators on many motorway routes including Cork, Limerick, etc.
With the recessionary times, people are likely to take the bus at about €25 return over the train at €74 return.
Once people discover that these coach buses are almost as fast, very quiet and comfortable, with onboard toilets and free wifi, I wonder will people ever return to paying almost 3 times as much?
I experienced this myself recently. I took GoBus to Galway, €20 return (versus €45 via train), onboard toilet, free wifi, very quiet and comfortable and 15 minutes faster then the train. After experiencing this, I'd never bother taking the train to Galway again and I can't wait for such a service to be introduced to Cork.
As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I've watched all my friends desert IR for their cars to Cork which is cheaper and much faster. The only people left on the train are those without cars, but once direct bus services start up, they are gone too, trust me.
So here is the current situation Cork to Dublin:
Car - 2 hours 30 minutes * - about €55 return fuel and tolls
Train - 2 hours 52 minutes - €74 return
* many do it faster, but not legally.
A direct non stop bus service would give us:
Coach - 3 hours - about €20 to €25 return
A future upgrade to tracks would give us:
Train - 2:20 to 2:30 - at least €74 return
Would most people be willing to spend three times as much just to save 30 to 40 minutes? Surely such people are going to be driving anyway.
What benefit is there to our country and economy in spending hundreds of millions in upgrades, just to save 30 minutes off a train journey?
I have yet to hear anyone give a good justification for such an expenditure?
Intercity rail made sense when we had awful roads, when the train was one to two hours faster then by road and the roads were so dangerous.
But intercity rail really doesn't make sense in such a small country like Ireland when you have such high quality roads.
Sorry I just don't see a future for intercity rail in Ireland. It just doesn't make logical success.
You are just completely wrong here.
Firstly, the majority of business travellers will never, ever take a bus, but they will consider a train. At the moment, people who can drive do, and this has been the case for 20 years. If a business person is going to leave the car at home, they will take the train, or the plane. Cost is not much of a issue, since they aren't paying themselves. They generally book at the last minute, making the plane by far the most expensive (One way, Cork to Dublin tomorrow is 100 euro, double that to return).
The people who take the bus, will be the ones who are very price sensitive, and generally a bit flexible on times, such as students. The bus is as fast as the train, but much less comfortable. But, since you can get cheap fares by booking in advance, that takes away much of the buses advantage for these people.
Even now that the motorways are open, the fall in Irish Rail passengers was about the same as for bus - based public transport, indicating that the motorways have had basically no impact on passengers so far, despite direct services already existing to Galway.
The problems with rail in Ireland can be laid directly at the door of Irish Rail. It's timetables are terrible - it could easily run a couple of express trains in 2h20 from Cork to Dublin once a day. Over half it's expenditure goes on wages, and only a small fraction on maintenance or fuel. Upgrading Dublin to Cork to allow 2 hour journey times would require millions, not billions - it just needs better quality track, and removal of speed restrictions, and very little civil work. We're not talking about a TGV line here. On the Belfast line, the slow journey times are because of the awful state of the rails north of the border, and congestion on the line into Dublin.
Intercity rail works very well in countries a lot bigger and more sparsely populated than Ireland. Closing the railway lines would be an act of vandalism, when all they need is to be run properly.
In the future, car and bus operators are much more dependent than rail on fuel prices, which are only going up, and this will act to help intercity rail.0 -
In the future, car and bus operators are much more dependent than rail on fuel prices, which are only going up, and this will act to help intercity rail.
Are they really? How much does it cost for a bus over a train? You can run both electrically. You don't need overhead lines to run a bus on electricity and battery technology is getting a lot better already and we have not even got a basic electric car setup going yet and there already companies testing batteries with 3 times the capacity of the ones being used in current electric cars which would make cross Ireland trips a reality without the need for recharging and Google already have an automated car that can has driven over a hundred thousand miles and had one accident (someone ran into it from behind while it was stopped at lights). And where people can't afford their own self-drive car, they can just call one up taxi style with reduced costs now that there will be no driver.0 -
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22194
You are just completely wrong here.
Firstly, the majority of business travellers will never, ever take a bus, but they will consider a train. At the moment, people who can drive do, and this has been the case for 20 years. If a business person is going to leave the car at home, they will take the train, or the plane. Cost is not much of a issue, since they aren't paying themselves. They generally book at the last minute, making the plane by far the most expensive (One way, Cork to Dublin tomorrow is 100 euro, double that to return).
I'm a business traveler and I've no problem taking a bus. Specially with the free wifi (which in fairness is now coming to IR too).
As you say the majority of business travelers drive or fly. They are a very small niche of intercity train users.
IME of traveling Cork to Dublin the past 10 years, the majority of train travelers are students or young professionals living away from home.
A couple of business travelers aren't going to keep the trains going.The people who take the bus, will be the ones who are very price sensitive, and generally a bit flexible on times, such as students. The bus is as fast as the train, but much less comfortable. But, since you can get cheap fares by booking in advance, that takes away much of the buses advantage for these people.
FFS why do people keep saying that buses are much less comfortable then trains? Have you ever taken one of the new bus coaches to Galway?
These are award winning Volvo touring coach buses that people travel across Europe on. They are fantastically comfortable. On my recent trip to Galway, I found the bus to be quieter and with a more comfortable ride then the trains to Cork (which shake all over the place). The only thing they lack are large tables, but it isn't a big deal.
Honestly people should try a trip on one of these buses before going on about comfort of buses.
Also students aren't necessarily that flexible and certainly not the young professionals who seem to make up the majority of train users in my experience.
I'm talking about people in their 20's, working in Dublin, but originally from places like Cork, who go home every few weeks.
While they are working, it isn't business travel and they are still price sensitive, but can't travel at any time as they are working. Those people are either driving now or would happily switch to a bus service that is a third of the price but just as quick.
These type of people make up the majority of IR's intercity passengers and IR is losing them at a frightening pace.
BTW as for reduced fares if you book ahead, bus companies can do the same, Citylink have deals for just €1 return to Galway if you book ahead.Even now that the motorways are open, the fall in Irish Rail passengers was about the same as for bus - based public transport, indicating that the motorways have had basically no impact on passengers so far, despite direct services already existing to Galway.
You have to be kidding, the direct buses to Galway have murdered the Galway train service. It is a ghost service now.
Having traveled Cork to Dublin for the past 10 years, I've seen a massive fall in train usage. These days even the 17:00 Friday service to Cork isn't even full anymore. In the past it was standing room only, now there are often empty seats around me!! This has happened over the past two years.
Do IR break out their passenger number per line? Our are they all heaped in together? I wouldn't be surprised if the massive fall in intercity rail hasn't been hidden in figures of increases in DART, etc.Upgrading Dublin to Cork to allow 2 hour journey times would require millions, not billions - it just needs better quality track, and removal of speed restrictions, and very little civil work. We're not talking about a TGV line here. On the Belfast line, the slow journey times are because of the awful state of the rails north of the border, and congestion on the line into Dublin.
I wasn't talking TGV either, a high speed train to Cork would cost minimum 5 billion.
All the upgrade works to remove speed restrictions on the Cork and Belfast lines would easily come to 1 billion. Hell they are talking about 300 million just to extend the DART a few km across empty fields to Dublin Airport. I don't think you understand how much rail infrastructure costs.Intercity rail works very well in countries a lot bigger and more sparsely populated than Ireland. Closing the railway lines would be an act of vandalism, when all they need is to be run properly.
Exactly intercity rail works well between large cities separated by large distances.
We basically have one semi large city that is a relatively short distance from a couple of small cities. This is why intercity rail isn't suitable for Ireland anymore.
BTW I'm not suggesting we close railway lines. Just that we don't invest anymore in them beyond what is needed for safety and that we reduce the subsidies to them. The money we save from this can then be directed into more badly needed infrastructure such as DU, MN, hospitals, etc.In the future, car and bus operators are much more dependent than rail on fuel prices, which are only going up, and this will act to help intercity rail.
Trains run on diesel too, so are also effected. Bus Coaches are only slightly less fuel efficient then trains. Also bus coaches benefit from being replaced much more often, which means they are more likely to benefit from the latest energy efficiency technology, such as bio-diesel, electric braking regeneration, hydrogen, battery powered, etc.
Again no one has given me a good reason why we should continue to heavily invest in intercity rail?
Hand waving about it being a little more comfortable or attractive to a couple of business travelers is hardly a justification for hundreds of millions if not billions of investments and subsidies.0 -
It is just as easy, perhaps even easier to shove you luggage in the side of a high quality coach bus, then it is to drag it up the steps of a train.
No, it is not. I was recently in Cork - travelling to Belfast by bus, then to Dublin by train, then to Cork by bus (never, never, never again), and returning by bus via Limerick, Dalway, Sligo, Letterkenney to Derry. In the luggage compartment of a bus, the luggage is not nearly so secure.
I think you are too dismissive about the prospect of freight rail. If nothing else we need to keep heavy lorries off the motorways. But you do make a good point about strikes. Indeed, I suspect that we might have to totally close down the entire rail network for a few years in order to establish the principle that passenger and freight rail services must be organised and managed in the interests of the customers.0 -
Are they really? How much does it cost for a bus over a train? You can run both electrically.
Buses may be cheaper, but a well maintained train can service IE up to 30 years, just look at First Great Western in Britain for example. Now, don't see many 30 year plus intercity buses driving around... do you.0 -
NITransport wrote: »Buses may be cheaper, but a well maintained train can service IE up to 30 years, just look at First Great Western in Britain for example. Now, don't see many 30 year plus intercity buses driving around... do you.
An intercity bus in Ireland has a better chance of making a net benefit over the lifetime of the asset, the train carriage has no chance.0 -
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Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22194
NITransport wrote: »Buses may be cheaper, but a well maintained train can service IE up to 30 years, just look at First Great Western in Britain for example. Now, don't see many 30 year plus intercity buses driving around... do you.
But a bus is far, far cheaper to buy in the first place then a train carriage.
IR seemed to have paid over €2 million per carriage. A very nice, high quality Volvo 9700 coach costs only €300,000 and are typically used for about 12 years before being sold off to secondary markets.
Plus buses are far more flexible. If demand increases you can easily order standard buses and have the delivered in a few months. Also bus drivers can be trained in a few weeks.
You can even subcontract in other buses and drivers from other companies to deal with shifts in demand.
Not so with trains, it literally takes years to order and have delivered new carriages.
I also note that it takes 4 times as many staff per 1,000 passengers on IR then BE (who in turn are probably less efficient then private bus operators).0 -
No, it is not. I was recently in Cork - travelling to Belfast by bus, then to Dublin by train, then to Cork by bus (never, never, never again), and returning by bus via Limerick, Dalway, Sligo, Letterkenney to Derry. In the luggage compartment of a bus, the luggage is not nearly so secure.
I think you are too dismissive about the prospect of freight rail. If nothing else we need to keep heavy lorries off the motorways. But you do make a good point about strikes. Indeed, I suspect that we might have to totally close down the entire rail network for a few years in order to establish the principle that passenger and freight rail services must be organised and managed in the interests of the customers.
That's probably the best idea i've ever heard! It will sadly take something so drastic to get the idea through the heads of certain interests that Public services run for just that - the public.
However, I'd like to take issue with your earlier, silly remark about Eirefolk and Ulsterfolk. There was no need for that remark whatsoever, and I can tell you my own experience of Ulsterfolk would be somewhat opposed to yours.....0 -
You are just completely wrong here.
Firstly, the majority of business travellers will never, ever take a bus, but they will consider a train. At the moment, people who can drive do, and this has been the case for 20 years. If a business person is going to leave the car at home, they will take the train, or the plane. Cost is not much of a issue, since they aren't paying themselves. They generally book at the last minute, making the plane by far the most expensive (One way, Cork to Dublin tomorrow is 100 euro, double that to return).
The people who take the bus, will be the ones who are very price sensitive, and generally a bit flexible on times, such as students. The bus is as fast as the train, but much less comfortable. But, since you can get cheap fares by booking in advance, that takes away much of the buses advantage for these people.
Even now that the motorways are open, the fall in Irish Rail passengers was about the same as for bus - based public transport, indicating that the motorways have had basically no impact on passengers so far, despite direct services already existing to Galway.
The problems with rail in Ireland can be laid directly at the door of Irish Rail. It's timetables are terrible - it could easily run a couple of express trains in 2h20 from Cork to Dublin once a day. Over half it's expenditure goes on wages, and only a small fraction on maintenance or fuel. Upgrading Dublin to Cork to allow 2 hour journey times would require millions, not billions - it just needs better quality track, and removal of speed restrictions, and very little civil work. We're not talking about a TGV line here. On the Belfast line, the slow journey times are because of the awful state of the rails north of the border, and congestion on the line into Dublin.
Intercity rail works very well in countries a lot bigger and more sparsely populated than Ireland. Closing the railway lines would be an act of vandalism, when all they need is to be run properly.
In the future, car and bus operators are much more dependent than rail on fuel prices, which are only going up, and this will act to help intercity rail.
You are wrong by being ignorant.
Business people will not keep the Inter City rail network alive. I find this quaint view of business people or assholes sipping tea in a 1st class carriage and actually justifying the need for the service, to be mildly offensive and out of touch with the reality of what a train service is about.
I keep reading the same lame justification that the cheaper bus option is common and uncomfortable. It may be, but price is king in this country now and the vast majority will vote on price. The train option is no longer an alternative to ****ty roads and long journies. The roads are superior and the aforementioned business travelers will opt for the car. Considering the fuel prices, it is still more beneficial to drive than take the train. Add to that the flexibility the car affords. A few elitist business people who opt for the train will not preserve the economics of inter city rail travel. No way.
Without an inter city rail product that competes with the road alternative, we are facing into a very heavily subsidised future. I believe that Irish Rail became complacent and have diluted their inter city product, while the motorway network was evolving.
Inter City Rail travel in Ireland under CIE, is over in terms of being sustainable.0 -
DWCommuter wrote: »Inter City Rail travel in Ireland under CIE, is over in terms of being sustainable.
The question is though when was it ever truely sustainable? Given the huge subsidies that CIÉ have long required from the Taxpayer.0 -
The question is though when was it ever truely sustainable? Given the huge subsidies that CIÉ have long required from the Taxpayer.
In fairness, if properly run in a time when national primary routes were poor and slow, it had a role to play. For a long time it had a growing number of passengers, but CIE could not translate that into a workable scenario. When investment came CIE used it to develop the perfect railway in 1980s Ireland. That's where we are now. Unfortunately for dozy CIE, the inter city road network is in the 21st century.
You have to wonder about the credibility of railway management.0 -
To return to the topic of MN:
RPA has released an updated redacted copy of the MN business case from Dec 2010
http://www.rpa.ie/en/projects/metro_north/build_and_operation_permission/Pages/MetroNorthRedactedBusinessCase.aspx
It does not take into account the shock census results from two weeks ago when it was found that population in Ireland had grown by 341K since 2006. This comprised 222k natural increase (births-deaths) and an amazing 119K net inward migration (immigrants-emigrants). Fingal population for example was up 13.8% in the period 2006-2011.
The Dec 2010 population growth scenarios looked at a low estimate of 6% growth from 2006-2025 and a high estimate of 15% which they discount as unlikely due to the recession.
Of course it hardly matters how strong the business case becomes if there is no effing money but I still see some hope for a deal in 5 yrs time.
--edit--
to see how wrong the ESRI's population forecasts were, listen to an interview with their top migration expert, Alan Barrett, in April this year where he estimates that 35K left the country in 2009 and that a further net 100K people would leave in 2010-1011. (skip to 2:20) http://audioboo.fm/boos/258803-esri-s-dr-alan-barrett-on-emigration-forecasts
ESRI is getting it wrong fairly consistently on nearly everything since 2008.0 -
However, I'd like to take issue with your earlier, silly remark about Eirefolk and Ulsterfolk.
There was a need for my remark. The poster, to whom my remark was directed, had insulted me - without any provocation whatsoever. It says in the Bible "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".0 -
Hi all. I am a long time reader of these forums. I decided to join due to being sick of certain postings being made about the rail system. To let you know before I begin, I have a large knowledge of every aspect of the railway, I understand train timetables and have created draft times in the past, My father is a senior train driver for Iarnrod Eireann & I study and am very interested in economics so therefore I think my opinions on these matters are valid.Unfortunately intercity rail is dead in Ireland. The motorways have mortally wounded it and direct non stop private bus services on these motorways will finish it off.
This really annoys me. This must be the only country in the world where people are advocating the closure of a rail network. I am not going to say our network is perfect and there needs to be some major changes. But the Railway can compete, and very well. I will give my reasonings throughout this post.The reality is Dublin to Belfast today takes 2 hours 15 minutes (135 minutes) which is slower then by road (BE is 10 minutes slower) and a lot more expensive.
Yes 2hrs 15 mins is the standard time today. This is unacceptable. However the main problem with the Enterprise resides in Northern Ireland, Not the Republic. There are long stretches in the North, Especially around Lisburn where there are speed restrictions. The track needs to completley relaid. The main project is the Knockmore relay. This has been deferred though by the NI executive due to budget constraints in favour of replacing life expired track on the Londonderry line. Problems in the Republic arent really the track condition, although Laytown viaduct has a 10mph restriction while it is being repaired. The times could be reduced by completley rebuilding the Connolly timetable. If all above issues wre dealt with a train with 3 stops would take about 2 hours. Obviously the long term will require high speed trains. The enterprise trains will require replacement from about 2020. 140mph trains are the preferred option, reducing the journey time to about 1 hour.The reality is that almost the entire intercity rail network can now be done faster by car or about the same by bus (for far less money).
Well to look at the flagship service Dublin - Cork, The Bus Eireann service takes 4Hours 25 mins and only runs every 2 hours from 8:00 to 18:00. And I know from my Bus knowledge, The Dublin - Cork Bus service aint going to change anytime soon! On this route really the Train has a complete monopoly. Anyone really that is going to go from Cork - Dublin, The Train enters their head first. Itis the first choice. Whenever any of my agegrup at least want to go to Dublin, Its Irishrail.ie straightaway!Of course it would be great if you could do Dublin to Belfast in 90 minutes or Dublin to Cork in 2 hours. But the question is, who is going to give us the close to 1 billion euros it would cost to upgrade all the intercity lines to make them faster?
I laugh when people say you need 1 Billion to achieve those times above! To deal with Dublin - Cork first, there is a major upgarde programme in progress over the last number of years and it is continuing apace. When all the restrictions are removed much faster journey times will be possible. There is only a few restrictions left actually. You would even notice it now while on the train. I was on the 18:00 to Cork recently and arrival time at the first stop Thurles is 19:23, it arrived at 19:13 after being stuck behind the 17;45 to Galway! Obviously we had to sit in Thurles for 10 minutes. It cant leave until the scheduled time. Of course whenever my Dad is driving that you dont arrive into Thurles early because he goes slower with the Train so as to avoid the wait! Many drivers do this. The same train after sitting in Thurles for 10 minutes was 5 minutes waiting in the Junction and was into Cork 5 minutes early after having the 10 mph restriction over the river at Buttevant. So improvments are now really coming on stream but the timetable will require a complete recasting. It is actually possible to do Dublin - Cork in 2 hours non stop! Many people dont beleive it but it is true. My dad almost did it before with a match special from Dublin - Cork. He had a clear run to Mallow but then got stuck behind a kerry train. The journey took 2 hours 7 mins, he said he could of done it in 2 hours only for that delay. So today with the extra improvments and say with the excellent acceleration of an ICR it could go no stop in just under 2 hours.And even if we had that money, would that be the best way to spend it? What would we really gain from knocking 30 minutes off the intercity rail network? Would the same money not be better spent on MN, DU, hospitals, etc.?
Spend I billion you could get 140mph tilting trains for most of the network and you would be knocking off a LOT more then 30 mins. It is better I believe to fix the existing networks problems before adding new parts and making it worse. Dart underground if done first will cause chaos and wont work. Especially on the Northern Line. The Dart to drogheda is going to be a disaster. The Northern line will have to be four tracked to make this work.
I will deal with the other posts later on.
I see my attempt at quoting has failed. Could someone tell me how to do this please?0 -
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KIERAN2400 wrote: »...
I see my attempt at quoting has failed. Could someone tell me how to do this please?
You just need to put a / before the quote in the second brackets, and only the word Quote, no post reference
[/QUOTE]0
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