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Oslo bombed

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  • #962
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    I'm in two minds over whether this bastards utterances should be given a public airing as seems likely, this is exactly what he wants.
    But then, I don't particularly like state censorship either.


  • #963
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    karma_ wrote: »
    I noticed this last night and it's a sad reflection of a lot of boards users.


    It's not a competition, karma.


  • #964
    Phill Ewinn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭Phill Ewinn


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    He seems to think he is some kind of Knight Templar in a 21st century crusade.

    He murders teenagers in the name of Christ?

    You're kidding right?? Christ had nothing to do with the crusades to capture the hill, nor does he have anything to do with modern freemasonry.


  • #965
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Isnt Charles Manson banned from speaking to the media in the states? They should do something similiar with this guy.


  • #966
    Sgt. Sensible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭Sgt. Sensible


    Stinicker wrote: »
    This is a powerful document and proves one thing the man was far from a loon but rather a calculated genius, possibly with OCD and obsessed and committed to his cause, I wonder did he have a girlfriend or wife? because it looks like he worked flat out on this for years and even says he spent €300k on the research.
    I wouldn't necessarily confuse the extraordinary level of commitment and planning with intelligence. His waffle is bog standard 3rd rate troll stuff identical to what you'd find on forums, blogs and in the mainstream press. And much of that manifesto thing is just a cut and paste job anyway. There's a whole Melanie Phillips article in there for instance. With varying degrees of success, far right organisations have been trying to make themselves appear more respectable and expand their appeal beyond their traditional violent bonehead bedsitgruppen loserbase and this atrocity if anything signifies something of a setback for them.
    However what really gets me is his choice of target considering his beliefs, he killed Nordic children when you would imagine Muslims or high ranking liberals would be the target from a brief scan of his writings. Those poor kids were only there for the craic I'd wager and certainly knew nothing about the "Marxist cultural war" he refers to.
    On the one hand, they were the softest targets imaginable, young, defenceless and trapped by the sea. They were also young labour party members possibly with a family tradition of left wing activism and likely to form the core of the party leadership in the future. I'd certainly expect them to be significantly more politically literate than I would've been at their age. There's a pretty good chance they'd be familiar with things like Gramsci's theory of cultural hegemony and the like. On the other hand, the attack was a massive failure, even many of those who share his views will instinctively view the mass murdering of teenagers with revulsion. Well I hope they do.


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  • #967
    smokingman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,788 ✭✭✭smokingman


    Blueboyd wrote: »
    page 1228

    Sarah Pallin ball to you.

    I wonder if fox news will report on this particular allegience he had with that crowd. When I heard about the incidents, I thought neo-nazi....turns out conservatism is the new neo-nazism. Sickening.


  • #968
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,410 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    His solicitor says that this guy wants to address the court tomorrow to explain his actions and why they were necessary. I think that it is bad to give nut jobs the freedom to express why they committed acts like this and only promotes other nut jobs to do likewise. While i am all for freedom of speech i think this guy should be given the Bin Laden treatment and dumped at sea.
    No point in attracting a following for him.


  • #969
    Phill Ewinn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭Phill Ewinn


    Silencing him would be worse. Shure then we'll never know what his kind will get upm to in the future.

    Anyway, he's done his job. No doubt he'll be found dead before he gets a chance to speak.

    OT; A lot of double talk going on in this thread so far. Deciet and diversion are these peoples best weapon.


  • #970
    Sgt. Sensible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭Sgt. Sensible


    tayto lover wrote: »
    His solicitor says that this guy wants to address the court tomorrow to explain his actions and why they were necessary. I think that it is bad to give nut jobs the freedom to express why they committed acts like this and only promotes other nut jobs to do likewise. While i am all for freedom of speech i think this guy should be given the Bin Laden treatment and dumped at sea.
    No point in attracting a following for him.
    I am absolutely livid about this but I understand that he must be kept safe as long as there's a possibility that he'll give up information about the identities of any fellow loons out there.


  • #971
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    smokingman wrote: »
    I wonder if fox news will report on this particular allegience he had with that crowd. When I heard about the incidents, I thought neo-nazi....turns out conservatism is the new neo-nazism. Sickening.

    I wouldn't even go as far as saying that "conservatism" is of necessity the issue. The problem is the extreme far-right attitudes he holds. Conservatism in and of itself can be a useful political idea from time to time, it shouldn't be demonised because of this case.
    Phill Ewinn wrote:
    You're kidding right?? Christ had nothing to do with the crusades to capture the hill, nor does he have anything to do with modern freemasonry.

    Having looked at his translated posts on document.no last night, it seems to be nothing more than a cultural Christianity opposed to a perceived Islamic threat. He notes the decline of Christians in Lebanon and in Bethlehem and shows it as an example of the hostility of Muslims towards Christianity. He also say in another post that he feels that the Protestant church in Norway is becoming too soft and he votes for conservative people in church elections and that eventually it would be better if they merged back into Catholicism. There's nothing that points to what exactly what impact his Christian faith would have had on anything though in terms of its Biblical substance.


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  • #972
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,410 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Sgt. Sensible wrote: »
    I am absolutely livid about this but I understand that he must be kept safe as long as there's a possibility that he'll give up information about the identities of any fellow loons out there.

    Is it necessary to give him the witness stand to find out this information ?
    I would say that there are other ways. This man spent loads of money researching for his day of bloodshed and used the internet widely. I am sure the authorities are already on the case to establish if he had help from other loonies. I would not support allowing him to make a speech from the dock at all.


  • #973
    Moomoo1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Moomoo1


    if this guy were a Muslim terrorist in America he wouldn't even get to trial probably, let alone get a platform to air his view.

    regarding his manifesto, it is so enormous that few will actually have the patience to read it - unless they've been converted already. But they would have come across these ideas many times anyway.

    regarding his awareness, he seems to have very detailed knowledge of some things, but then gets others stunningly wrong: for example he cites Putin as a guy he respects: he should know that Putin will happily flood the country with foreigners as long as it helps his capitalist friends get richer. Any far right Russian person could have told him that.


  • #974
    Sgt. Sensible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭Sgt. Sensible


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Is it necessary to give him the witness stand to find out this information ?
    I would say that there are other ways. This man spent loads of money researching for his day of bloodshed and used the internet widely. I am sure the authorities are already on the case to establish if he had help from other loonies. I would not support allowing him to make a speech from the dock at all.
    Agree with you there, but just don't want him shot and dumped at sea yet.

    Twitter saying that there have been 6 arrests today.


  • #975
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Sgt. Sensible wrote: »
    Twitter saying that there have been 6 arrests today.
    Breaking news now.

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/norwegian-police-arrest-six-in-oslo-raids-514019.html


  • #976
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Is it necessary to give him the witness stand to find out this information ?
    I would say that there are other ways. This man spent loads of money researching for his day of bloodshed and used the internet widely. I am sure the authorities are already on the case to establish if he had help from other loonies. I would not support allowing him to make a speech from the dock at all.


    On what grounds would you have him gagged?

    If it is to prevent him getting publicity/notoriety from a terrorist atrocity it is too late for that.

    If it is to prevent others following in his footsteps - it is hard to argue that censorship of him, in particular will do anything (may actually help produce a martyr complex!)

    Presumably you aren't afraid that his arguments cannot be tackled.

    So whilst the platform would admittedly be some sort of reward for him, as far as it goes, it wouldn't be of sufficient benefit to us, in all likelihood, to exercise censorship as a form of punishment.


  • #977
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    gambiaman wrote: »
    I'm in two minds over whether this bastards utterances should be given a public airing as seems likely, this is exactly what he wants.
    But then, I don't particularly like state censorship either.

    Id be in two minds on the issue myself although I find it hard to get myself particularly bothered about the government denying a platform to someone who has himself used the ultimate form of censorship against his political oponents.


  • #978
    WesternNight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭WesternNight


    I think that how he's treated reflects the Norwegian government and maybe the Norwegian attitude in general, rather than the killer. There's no point comparing it to what would happen in the US. There's such a huge difference between "We will hunt you down" and "We will retaliate with more democracy".


  • #979
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,410 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    On what grounds would you have him gagged?

    If it is to prevent him getting publicity/notoriety from a terrorist atrocity it is too late for that.

    If it is to prevent others following in his footsteps - it is hard to argue that censorship of him, in particular will do anything (may actually help produce a martyr complex!)

    Presumably you aren't afraid that his arguments cannot be tackled.

    So whilst the platform would admittedly be some sort of reward for him, as far as it goes, it wouldn't be of sufficient benefit to us, in all likelihood, to exercise censorship as a form of punishment.

    I would have him gagged on the grounds that we have enough lunatics who are only too willing to carry out similar atrocities. He claims to be anti-Muslim and i fear that Muslim extremists would only be willing to go one better if taunted or goaded by this man's right to freedom of speech. In my opinion when you commit crimes like this you forfeit you're freedom of speech.


  • #980
    Sgt. Sensible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭Sgt. Sensible


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Id be in two minds on the issue myself although I find it hard to get myself particularly bothered about the government denying a platform to someone who has himself used the ultimate form of censorship against his political oponents.
    Dunno how things work in Norway, but it's customary to give defendants a chance to address the court before sentence is passed. I have a feeling that any attempt he makes to further justify the murders will make it even more likely that he'll get killed in prison.


  • #981
    Blueboyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭Blueboyd


    The manifesto is partly copied from Unabomber

    Unabomber:
    «When we speak of leftists in this article we have in mind mainly socialists, collectivists, "politically correct" types, feminists, gay and disability activists, animal rights activists and the like.»

    Breivik:
    «When we speak of cultural Marxists in this article we have in mind mainly individuals who support multiculturalism; socialists, collectivists, "politically correct" types, feminists, gay and disability activists, animal rights activists, environmentalists etc.»


    Unabomber:
    «The two psychological tendencies that underlie modern leftism we call ‘feelings of inferiority’ and ‘oversocialization,’»

    Breivik
    «The two psychological tendencies that underlie cultural Marxists we call ‘feelings of inferiority’ and ‘over-socialisation,»


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  • #982
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Let him Speak. Benjamin's Franklins quote comes to mind. We cannot censor anybody, one second :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8


  • #983
    daRobot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭daRobot


    Quoted from BBC Wesbite

    In a press conference earlier, police chief Sveinung Sponheim said Mr Breivik "admitted to the facts of both the bombing and the shooting, although he's not admitting criminal guilt".

    "He says that he was alone but the police must verify everything that he said. Some of the witness statements from the island have made us unsure of whether there was one or more shooters."

    Continue reading the main story
    At the scene

    Richard Galpin
    BBC News, near Utoeya
    The Red Cross says people are still missing, presumed dead. The search, using a mini-submarine, will continue for several days, as currents could have carried the bodies some way. The island - a crime scene - remains sealed off.

    People had come to this island from all over Norway - so there are many families across the country who are directly affected. Now they want a chance not just to grieve, but to reflect on these events.

    This is normally a very peaceful, harmonious society, and is very open. Now, that's been shattered. However, a large number of people I've spoken to have been quite defiant - they are determined this won't undermine the values the country stands for: openness and tolerance.

    He said police were not looking for anyone else at the moment - though they had not ruled out that the suspect might have had help.

    He said Mr Breivik had co-operated during his interrogation and there had been a "good" dialogue.

    He has been charged over both attacks, and is due to appear in court on Monday.

    Mr Sponheim confirmed that the maximum time Mr Breivik could face in prison under Norwegian law is 21 years.


    They'll surely have to lock him up for life. Psychiatric institution angle perhaps?


  • #984
    Blueboyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭Blueboyd


    daRobot wrote: »
    They'll surely have to lock him up for life. Psychiatric institution angle perhaps?


    Wikipedia:

    By law it is possible to receive life imprisonment in Norway, but there are no examples of such after the latest correctional law passed in 2002. There are basically two types of maximum penalty laws:
    • The maximum determinate penalty is 21 years imprisonment, but only a small percentage of prisoners serve more than 14 years. Prisoners will typically get unsupervised parole for weekends etc. after serving ⅓ of their sentence (a maximum of 7 years) and can receive early release after serving ⅔ of their sentence (a maximum of 14 years).
    • The maximum indeterminate penalty, called "containment" (Norwegian: forvaring), is also set at 21 years imprisonment, and the prisoner is required to serve at least 10 years before becoming eligible for parole. "Containment" is used when the prisoner is deemed a danger to society and there is a great chance of committing violent crimes in the future. If the prisoner is still considered dangerous after serving the original sentence, the prisoner can receive up to five years additional containment.
    If the additional time is served, and the offender is still considered dangerous, a prisoner can continue to receive up to five years additional containment, and this, in theory, could result in actual life imprisonment. [1] However, the offender can be paroled or released at any time if it is determined that the offender is no longer a danger to society.


  • #985
    sunflower27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭sunflower27


    daRobot wrote: »
    They'll surely have to lock him up for life. Psychiatric institution angle perhaps?

    Some guy on Sky News was saying that the gunman was an educated man and not insane.

    Would have thought they would need to do tests for that. Not all psychopaths are thick b*stards.


  • #986
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    The Irish Labour Party have opened an online Book of Condolences which will be presented to the Norwegian Labour Party in memory of those who died.

    You can follow the link below if you want to sign it;

    http://www.labour.ie/norway


  • #987
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    sunflower27 wrote: »
    Some guy on Sky News was saying that the gunman was an educated man and not insane.

    Would have thought they would need to do tests for that. Not all psychopaths are thick b*stards.

    I always thought a psychopath would be considered an insane person.


  • #988
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,037 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    sunflower27 wrote: »
    Some guy on Sky News was saying that the gunman was an educated man and not insane.

    Would have thought they would need to do tests for that. Not all psychopaths are thick b*stards.

    Highlighted the issue there, IMO the red tops of the television news offerings.


  • #989
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    sunflower27 wrote: »
    Some guy on Sky News was saying that the gunman was an educated man and not insane.

    Would have thought they would need to do tests for that. Not all psychopaths are thick b*stards.

    In a way, they're calling their entire audience insane.


  • #990
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Highlighted the issue there, IMO the red tops of the television news offerings.

    Dunno why people even watch $ky "News" anymore given that theres at least half a dozen other better news channels to choose from


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  • #991
    WesternNight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭WesternNight


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Dunno why people even watch $ky "News" anymore given that theres at least half a dozen other better news channels to choose from

    That's true for general viewing, but when the Norwegian PM was making his initial speech, Sky was the only one of the news channels I have showing it live.


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