Time to ditch the church from the constitution?

Joe10000 · 20-07-2011 09:07PM

Entire church in this country should be dismantled with no involvement in any institution of any kind but their own.

mgmt · 20-07-2011 09:10PM

Joe10000 wrote: »

Entire church in this country should be dismantled with no involvement in any institution of any kind but their own.

Are they still forcing primary school children in Catholic primary schools to go to confession during schooltime as was the norm in my school. Kids alone with the priest :eek:

Wolfe Tone · 20-07-2011 09:10PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

To be fair, the conflation of 'Irishness' and Catholicism has done a lot of harm throughout our history. It's an association that needs to be broken (if it hasn't already been smashed in the last decade).

To unite the whole people of Ireland, to abolish the memory of past dissensions, and to substitute the common name of Irishman, in place of the denominations of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter, these were my means.

Couldn't agree more.

Of course theres nothing wrong with being Catholic, or Protestant or whatever,

Run_to_da_hills · 20-07-2011 09:11PM

Corsendonk wrote: »

Anyone know if Priests have to get Garda clearance?

In most other countries like the UK and the States you need police clearance to work with kids so there is no reason why Priests shouldn't be included and particularly so when their own authorities in the Vatican stick their heads in the sand about it.

Wolfe Tone · 20-07-2011 09:11PM

mgmt wrote: »

Are they still forcing primary school children in Catholic primary schools to go to confession during schooltime as was the norm in my school. Kids alone with the priest :eek:

Not all priests are paedophiles no more than all men are, thats not really fair to say. I know a few excellent priests who are devastated by this and its not fair to label them all as paedos.

sollar · 20-07-2011 09:13PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

To be fair, the conflation of 'Irishness' and Catholicism has done a lot of harm throughout our history. It's an association that needs to be broken (if it hasn't already been smashed in the last decade).

Thats probably true and it can fairly be applied to Protestantism and unionism in NI

mgmt · 20-07-2011 09:14PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Not all priests are paedophiles no more than all men are, thats not really fair to say. I know a few excellent priests who are devastated by this and its not fair to label them all as paedos.

In fairness, putting a child in a room alone with an authority figure is not the best way to go. Especially if that man is sexually frustrated.

Joe10000 · 20-07-2011 09:15PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Not all priests are paedophiles no more than all men are, thats not really fair to say. I know a few excellent priests who are devastated by this and its not fair to label them all as paedos.

I think all rational people accept this but as an institution it cannot be trusted and unfortunately that will relect unfairly on their staff.

charlemont · 20-07-2011 09:15PM

mgmt wrote: »

We have a Catholic church based here, the Church of Ireland.

Does the COI have a British royal as head of the church ?

Wolfe Tone · 20-07-2011 09:15PM

mgmt wrote: »

In fairness, putting a child in a room alone with an authority figure is not the best way to go. Especially if that man is sexually frustrated.

Are you saying that no sex makes you a paedo?

charlemont · 20-07-2011 09:17PM

randylonghorn wrote: »

Ah ... a modern Henry VIII comes to the fore!! :pac:

Ha, We'll base the seat of the church in Armagh.

Mike 1972 · 20-07-2011 09:25PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

For instance the ban on homosexuality etc was unconstitutional.

The Supreme Court didnt seem to think so.

mgmt · 20-07-2011 09:30PM

charlemont wrote: »

Does the COI have a British royal as head of the church ?

I'm not a member, but a quick look on wiki:

Structure
The polity of the Church of Ireland is episcopal church governance, which is the same as other Anglican churches. The church maintains the traditional structure dating to pre-Reformation times, a system of geographical parishes organized into dioceses. There are 12 dioceses, each headed by a bishop. The leader of the five southern bishops is the Archbishop of Dublin; that of the seven northern bishops is the Archbishop of Armagh; they are styled Primate of Ireland and Primate of All Ireland respectively, suggesting the ultimate seniority of the latter. Although he has relatively little absolute authority, the Archbishop of Armagh is respected as the church's general leader and spokesman and is elected in a process different from those for all other bishops.

Wolfe Tone · 20-07-2011 09:30PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

The Supreme Court didnt seem to think so.

lol, dont know why I said homosexuality, dunno what I was thinking there, sure he had to go to europe, oops!

What I meant to say was that it was very liberal in the rights it did outline as well as the unenumerated ones. Things such as equal rights.

For its day, in very catholic Ireland, it was very liberal. Of course its not perfect, but its not the medieval restrictive document some portray it as.

Zebra3 · 20-07-2011 09:39PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Also laws to remove all religious idols from public property.

Yeah, the site of that statue of Jaysus's ma at the top of O'Connell St makes me sick.

Put it in your temple. :mad:

randylonghorn · 20-07-2011 09:52PM

charlemont wrote: »

Does the COI have a British royal as head of the church ?

No, the CoI was disestablished in 1869, and is governed by the General Synod.

charlemont wrote: »

Ha, We'll base the seat of the church in Armagh.

Ah, I see you're still falling for the machinations of Armagh's two spin-doctors, Muirchu and Tirechan, more than thousand years later!!

Irish Guitarist · 20-07-2011 10:41PM

Stinicker wrote: »

I think we should also ban the Angelus and "Do you swear to Almighty God to tell the truth"? Also get rid of priests out of Hospitals, I was in Hospital once and one came around to see how the patients in the ward were? It made me very angry to see him there. I hate the church and catholicism.

You're totally right. Religious people who are on their death bed shouldn't have the option of talking to a priest just in case it upsets you.

philologos · 20-07-2011 10:45PM

There is no mention of any specific church in the Constitution anymore. As for removing the preamble and other such trappings it should be up to the people to decide. In an economic crisis arguably the money is better spent elsewhere, but it could be chucked in some election in the coming years.

OP: No chance of a maybe in the poll? Or Atari Jaguar, Sega Megadrive et al?

charlemont wrote: »

Does the COI have a British royal as head of the church ?

In CofI churches the President is prayed for in the Republic and the Queen in Northern Ireland. Technically the Queen is the head of the Anglican Communion, but in practice it is the Archbishop of Canterbury.

The Anglican Communion is the worldwide Anglican church. This church is split up into independent provinces, such as England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, US, Canada, Australia, Middle East, New Zealand, etc. Provinces can be countries or regions depending on the number of Anglicans. These provinces hold a General Synod to vote on the topics relevant to the church and elect new leaders. There in turn is a Diocesan Synod for each diocese such as Dublin & Glendalough, Meath & Kildare etc. In turn in each parish there is a Select Vestry to elect people to help with the running of the parish. Members for General Synod are voted from the Diocesan Synod, and members for the Diocesan Synod voted from the Select Vestry. That's how it works.

Provinces can make decisions independently for the most part. Dioceses can make some decisions independently, and vestry can make decisions about how to run the churches in a parish within reason.

Monty Burnz · 20-07-2011 10:59PM

philologos wrote: »

OP: No chance of a maybe in the poll? Or Atari Jaguar, Sega Megadrive et al?

Sorry about that. I resisted the temptation.

philologos wrote: »

In CofI churches the President is prayed for in the Republic and the Queen in Northern Ireland. Technically the Queen is the head of the Anglican Communion, but in practice it is the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Thanks for this info (and the stuff I clipped).

housetypeb · 20-07-2011 11:19PM

Stinicker wrote: »

I think we should also ban the Angelus and "Do you swear to Almighty God to tell the truth"? Also get rid of priests out of Hospitals, I was in Hospital once and one came around to see how the patients in the ward were? It made me very angry to see him there. I hate the church and catholicism.

When my wife was dying in hospital from her last but successful attempt at suicide, a priest came around uninvited to me as i waited to find out if the doctors could save her life, I declined his offer of prayers and sent him on his way, I neither needed nor wanted his meaningless religious platitudes ,vultures are more honest than those charlatans.

Steodonn · 20-07-2011 11:54PM

Do it during the referendum on the rights of a child

sorted

squod · 21-07-2011 12:03AM

Time to ditch the church from the constitution

Disagree completely OP. Pretty obvious that the Catholic Church is very corrupt. People need arresting through-out the world in relation to crimes and cover-ups.

But don't put the wants of these criminals before God.

G_R · 21-07-2011 12:34AM

My two cents on the matter, for what they're worth.

I actually (for I think the first time ever) agree with Wolfe Tone when he said that the Constitution was quite Liberal for it's time. I took a Module of Irish Politics in College last year, I am far far far from an expert on the constitution but I like to think that I have a relatively good overview of it. When the Constitution was being written Ireland, and most of the world for that matter, was a much more conservative place than it is today. The Catholic Church had an awful lot of power and influence, so it's actually quite surprising that it was as liberal as it was. When it was being written Dev had to find a balance between the Ultra Conservatives, and the Ultra Liberals, and Bunreacht na hÉireann was the result.

All that said however, Ireland of 2011 is a very very different place. No religious reference whatsoever has any any place in the Constitution, in the preamble, as part of the oaths of Presidents/Judges, or anywhere else. As another poster said, the document should contain the word religion a sum total of once. To secure the right of any citizen to practice religion freely, if they so desire. As I said I'm no Constitutional Lawyer, but I don't think it should be that difficult to remove all the references to the church from the document. The oaths could be changed to something as simple as "In the presence of Almighty God The Irish People..." or similar.

Regarding the concerns of some posters in relation to cost, in relative terms, the cost of holding a referendum is negligible. Considering the hold that the Catholic Church has had over this country in the past I think it would be worth any price. I believe that the country needs to show, both to it's own people and people outside that Ireland is not the "Backwards, God Fearing, Insert Generalisation here" country that people seem to think it is, or at least was. Removing all references to religion, besides the one example mentioned above, would be a good way to go about doing this. And besides, it could just be latched on to the end of the forthcoming Referendum on Children's Rights (Yes I realise you can't just "latch it on" but you get what I mean).

the groutch · 21-07-2011 12:43AM

sell all the churches to pay all the abuse victims, then the Catholic Church in Ireland will be no more, Simples!

Monty Burnz · 21-07-2011 01:05AM

squod wrote: »

But don't put the wants of these criminals before God.

Which god? Thor? Zeus?

randylonghorn · 21-07-2011 05:55AM

the groutch wrote: »

sell all the churches to pay all the abuse victims, then the Catholic Church in Ireland will be no more, Simples!

Sell them to who? What will they be used for, or what would encourage people to buy them?

Not to mention that you are quite happily advocating trampling on the rights of all practicing Catholics in this country, of which there are still many genuine ones (including quite possibly members of your family?), and disenfranchising them in a way that no-one has managed to do since the Penal Laws!

I love the way that some people are quite happy to spout about their own rights while being very happy to trample on the rights of others!

Yes, the church as an institution (as opposed to the community of believers) has much to be ashamed of in the way they have dealt with this matter, and it would seem that some at the top of that institution have not learned their lesson yet, including I fear Josef Ratzinger.

Yes, those who have committed offences in this country should be held to account before the courts of the land (including those who covered up crimes).

Yes, the church should fork out its share of the bill for reparations, and do so promptly at that (and let's remember that the other half of that bill goes to the state, our state, our government, which failed those children just as miserably!).

But let's try to keep a bit of both practicality and sanity in this discussion, and surprise those who read AH regularly!

Confiscating and selling churches is neither practical nor sane.

If cash is not forthcoming, a number of schools / hospitals / properties which are in church ownership should be transferred to state ownership without further delay to defray this debt. Primary schools would be particularly good, in my view, as it would allow for a number of secular / non-denominational schools to be set up around the country almost instantly without any major cost to the state, something I suspect many people (including myself) would warmly welcome.

philologos · 21-07-2011 09:53AM

Grand_Rajnah wrote: »

Considering the hold that the Catholic Church has had over this country in the past I think it would be worth any price. I believe that the country needs to show, both to it's own people and people outside that Ireland is not the "Backwards, God Fearing, Insert Generalisation here" country that people seem to think it is, or at least was.

"Backwards" is wholly subjective depending on ones opinion. Personally, I don't believe that being "God fearing" is ever backwards. In the Ireland of 2011 people should be at the liberty to believe what they deem is most reasonable. It shouldn't be a place to try ram out every form of religion from society. Rather it should be a place where the law is applied equally to all citizens. The Government shouldn't care less about what religion is practised by whom in Ireland.

Up de Barrs · 21-07-2011 10:13AM

philologos wrote: »

"Backwards" is wholly subjective depending on ones opinion. Personally, I don't believe that being "God fearing" is ever backwards. In the Ireland of 2011 people should be at the liberty to believe what they deem is most reasonable. It shouldn't be a place to try ram out every form of religion from society. Rather it should be a place where the law is applied equally to all citizens. The Government shouldn't care less about what religion is practised by whom in Ireland.

Absolutely, but similarily the state shouldn't allow a situation where most schools and a large number of hospitals continue to be under the control of a church to which many people in this republic owe no allegiance. The state has effectively propped up the church in terms of its power and prestige by allowing this to continue. Cut them off from state support and make them obey the law of the land. It might do the church a lot of good to have to stand on its own.

Rabidlamb · 21-07-2011 10:24AM

Well I for one am going to rob a bank & put it on black, no red, anyway I'm never paying it back.
Then I'm off to do some kiddy fiddling wearing my shiny black suit.

The odds on me ever seeing the inside of a courtroom in this country stands at a million to one.
Ireland, a great country to rape the taxpayer & young children.

philologos · 21-07-2011 10:34AM

Up de Barrs wrote: »

Absolutely, but similarily the state shouldn't allow a situation where most schools and a large number of hospitals continue to be under the control of a church to which many people in this republic owe no allegiance.

I agree actually. All hospitals as far as I'm concerned should be state run. But if they are they must have proper chaplaincy facilities for people who are sick and dying who feel they need to have a proper connection to a faith leader, or Bibles, Qur'ans etc.

Up de Barrs wrote: »

The state has effectively propped up the church in terms of its power and prestige by allowing this to continue. Cut them off from state support and make them obey the law of the land. It might do the church a lot of good to have to stand on its own.

I don't understand what you mean. The church should be liable to the laws of the State concerning child abuse, meaning that people need to be prosecuted for what they have done. As for anything more or anything less, that is going beyond the law. All one should do is enforce the law as if anyone else was breaking it. That's what would satisfy me.

Anything else is just talk really.

Time to ditch the church from the constitution?

Comments