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Time to ditch the church from the constitution?

24

Comments

  • #32
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    orourkeda wrote: »
    As long as it concerns all religious peraphernalia
    Precisely, its even mentioned in the second commandment. :)


  • #33
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Check how the poll is going so far and stick your Loyalist preconceptions where the sun don't shine.
    Ok. Fair enough. I remember having a discussion with some one on here about this lately. I knew the church was struggling a bit but still thought it had a big support in the majority. Perhaps i was wrong. Still deciding which way to vote on this.


  • #34
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    For all the bashing Dev gets, he wrote a very modern, liberal, constitution.

    Womens duties in the home and suchlke ?


  • #35
    Corsendonk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,870 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    Anyone know if Priests have to get Garda clearance?


  • #36
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Womens duties in the home and suchlke ?
    For the day, it was actually very liberal. For instance the ban on homosexuality etc was unconstitutional.

    Norris praised it in his interview for boards for example.


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  • #37
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Not another religion thread.

    We live in a bankrupt country and the best thing we can think of doing is running an expensive referendum to alter our constitution's preamble to offer no meaningful benefit to anyone.


  • #38
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    My name is URL wrote: »
    The whole constitution needs to be modernised. It's absurd that so much religious crap remains in it.

    The Oath taken by Presidents contains the following gem -
    "In the presence of Almighty God Jelly Babies I, do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will maintain the Constitution of Ireland and uphold its laws, that I will fulfil my duties faithfully and conscientiously in accordance with the Constitution and the law, and that I will dedicate my abilities to the service and welfare of the people of Ireland. May God Jelly Babies direct and sustain me."
    Wouldn't it be awful to make an irreligious person take that oath?

    Yes - and when I say it, I'll edit it and say "Jelly Babies" instead! :D


  • #39
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Not another religion thread.

    We live in a bankrupt country and the best thing we can think of doing is running an expensive referendum to alter our constitution's preamble to offer no meaningful benefit to anyone.
    Pretty much, and removing all references to religion from the actual constitution, such as oaths etc, would be a very expensive process, with lots of money to go to barristers to word them, interpret them etc, would take ages too.


  • #40
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Still deciding which way to vote on this.

    I would have thought with your anti catholic views that you would have been a clear Yes voter. Its more complicated than that though isn't it. Your culture is built around anti-catholicism so it wouldn't suit you to see this country become secular.

    The No vote went up to 3 when you arrived.


  • #41
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Never in this country,
    Granted but just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. And if a preamble can have legal ramifications at an European level I don't see why they wouldn't have them at an Irish level.
    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    even the unionists didn't kick up a fuss over the preamble.
    I never knew they were given an option. But I can't say I'm surprised that a predomantely Prodastant group didn't kick up a fuss over a reference to Jesus.
    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Why the hell would you want to go to the cost of a referendum
    Just slap it onto the end of another referendum, no need to go out of our way.
    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    to change something which is meaningless and wont be invoked, and even if it could, I fail to see exactly HOW it could in any even vaguely meaningful way.

    Okay granted, I doubt it would ever be invoked. I can think of a couple of scenarios, but they are all pretty fanceful and I doubt they would stand.

    In any case, why exactly should we leave it there.


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  • #42
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Pretty much, and removing all references to religion from the actual constitution, such as oaths etc, would be a very expensive process, with lots of money to go to barristers to word them, interpret them etc, would take ages too.
    I doubt it, as you said yourself it is a preamble and is mostely meaningless. All you need to do is lop it off and the constitution is fine as it stands.

    Same thing with all the oaths, it only ever features as a meaningless and unnesserary platitude at the beginining.

    Unless you are now argueing that it does have legal ramifications?


  • #43
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Knasher wrote: »
    In any case, why exactly should we leave it there.
    Even if he wanted to change it, we can't afford it.


  • #44
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Knasher wrote: »
    Granted but just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. And if a preamble can have legal ramifications at an European level I don't see why they wouldn't have them at an Irish level.
    I never knew they were given an option. But I can't say I'm surprised that a predomantely Prodastant group didn't kick up a fuss over a reference to Jesus.

    Just slap it onto the end of another referendum, no need to go out of our way.



    Okay granted, I doubt it would ever be invoked. I can think of a couple of scenarios, but they are all pretty fanceful and I doubt they would stand.

    In any case, why exactly should we leave it there.
    And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,

    The unionists didnt kick a fuss up over that when demanding we changed the constitution to facilitate the peace process.

    And it cant be edited willy nilly by politicians, its still part of the constitution, but it is not the constitution if you follow, as it has no legal application.


  • #45
    Sulmac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    The only mention of religion (any religion, not just Catholicism) at all in the Constitution should be to guarantee freedom of religion; but also include an article to ensure that the country is a secular state.

    Another thing that needs to go is that awful blasphemy clause, it's just embarrassing.


  • #46
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Knasher wrote: »
    I doubt it, as you said yourself it is a preamble and is mostely meaningless. All you need to do is lop it off and the constitution is fine as it stands.

    Same thing with all the oaths, it only ever features as a meaningless and unnesserary platitude at the beginining.

    Unless you are now argueing that it does have legal ramifications?
    The oaths obviously do.


  • #47
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Yes. We're Irish not Roman. :D
    We should have our church based here. :pac:


  • #48
    seandeas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭seandeas


    Leave it as it is, some of us like it that way.

    Also the "poll" on this is not representative of the country as a whole.

    Also - I like the Angelus - which, by the way is not specifically Catholic, it could be a reminder to all faiths to pray.


  • #49
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    sdeire wrote: »
    Grand so.

    Good move. Im venting tonight!!!!!!


  • #50
    mconigol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I think we should also ban the Angelus and "Do you swear to Almighty God to tell the truth"? Also get rid of priests out of Hospitals, I was in Hospital once and one came around to see how the patients in the ward were? It made me very angry to see him there. I hate the church and catholicism.

    So you should decide if sick people are allowed to practice their faith then?

    I'm a non-believer but that's an idiotic comment.


  • #51
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Keith, take your bigoted assumptions and generalistaions elsewhere, like youtube where you post your bile uncensored and untempered as recently revealed on the politics forum.

    What's his username on youtube?

    Never mind, found it. Apparently http://www.youtube.com/user/UlsterScotKeith#p/f


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  • #52
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    My name is URL wrote: »
    ...The Oath taken by Presidents...
    There's small interesting question!

    Is a person a president BEFORE they actually take their first oath or are they then thereafter a president?

    Point of order your honour.
    It should be ...The Oath taken by Presidents-elect...

    Sorry My name is URL, no offence. I'm a stickler for little details! :D
    (In other words - I'm a pain in the ass!)
    (Waits for it...)


  • #53
    randylonghorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    Stinicker wrote: »
    Also get rid of priests out of Hospitals, I was in Hospital once and one came around to see how the patients in the ward were? It made me very angry to see him there. I hate the church and catholicism.
    Some of the other people in the ward may not have agreed with you, or don't they have any rights?
    Sulmac wrote: »
    The only mention of religion (any religion, not just Catholicism) at all in the Constitution should be to guarantee freedom of religion; but also include an article to ensure that the country is a secular state.

    Another thing that needs to go is that awful blasphemy clause, it's just embarrassing.
    The blasphemy clause and the subsequent legislation is indeed ridiculous, and should be repealed.

    I agree with your other point too; what people often forget is that freedom of religion protects both the right of people to believe AND the freedom of people NOT to believe. That may not seem that important in this part of the world, but it's extremely important in many parts of the globe.
    charlemont wrote: »
    Yes. We're Irish not Roman. :D
    We should have our church based here. :pac:
    Ah ... a modern Henry VIII comes to the fore!! :pac:


  • #54
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    mgmt wrote: »
    What's his username on youtube?


    UlsterScotKeith. He posts lots of lovely
    stuff.

    It is him too, by his own admission.


  • #55
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    UlsterScotKeith. He posts lots of lovely
    stuff.

    It is him too, by his own admission.

    Keith obviously likes his hobby.


  • #56
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    mgmt wrote: »
    Keith obviously likes his hobby.
    Yeah, hence why its a bit annoying to watch him bash the catholic church when it is not fueled by disdain for paedophillia or the scandals, but simply by good old fashioned anti Irish sectarianism.

    Of course we aren't all catholics these days, but as we can see by his post earlier he believes us all to be evil papists and nasty republicans to boot.

    Anyway, while its a good idea to "remove all references to the catholic church" its a bit of a populist sentiment, which is quite unnecessary, and we have no cash to fund such a procedure.

    And selfishly, I want it left cause I just spent a year studying the damn thing, so leave it be! :pac:


  • #57
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    mgmt wrote: »
    Keith obviously likes his hobby.

    His life!


  • #58
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Yeah, hence why its a bit annoying to watch him bash the catholic church when it is not fueled by disdain for paedophillia or the scandals, but simply by good old fashioned anti Irish sectarianism.

    Of course we aren't all catholics these days, but as we can see by his post earlier he believes us all to be evil papists and nasty republicans to boot.
    Got any soup sir? :rolleyes:

    Still to make up my mind about this. I think it has disadvantages and advantages from both sides of the argument.


  • #59
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    charlemont wrote: »
    Yes. We're Irish not Roman. :D
    We should have our church based here. :pac:
    We used to. There was a power struggle between the Roman church and the Irish church in the early medieval period for dominance in Western Europe, and the Irish church lost. Interesting story.

    I've heard it said that Isaac Asimov based the idea of the Second Foundation on the Irish church - don't know if it's true.


  • #60
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    We have a Catholic church based here, the Church of Ireland.


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  • #61
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Yeah, hence why its a bit annoying to watch him bash the catholic church when it is not fueled by disdain for paedophillia or the scandals, but simply by good old fashioned anti Irish sectarianism.
    To be fair, the conflation of 'Irishness' and Catholicism has done a lot of harm throughout our history. It's an association that needs to be broken (if it hasn't already been smashed in the last decade).


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