Doggies beginning to attack each other

carlybabe1 · 20-07-2011 3:30pm #1

Help, my two min jack russels have recently started to fight with each other, and I mean the real fighting, not just snapping and snarling. It happened last week out the back and I went out and broke them up, but was disconcerted. Anywhoo, my daughter brought them out today, and when another dog came sniffing around (not on a leash), they got very aggitated. My daughter walked them on a bit further, and according to her, they just started to go at each, hair on end and white foam spraying everywhere. Again she tried to intervene but they were so frenzied one of them bit her quit badly. Needless to say she was upset and phoned me to go over there which i did, but at that stage all had quietened down. When I took the leads however, the male went for the female again, with no provocation whatsoever. I just gave the lead a firm tug and he came to heel. Im worried about this though, Ive had dogs all my life (at one starge I had 3 at the same time) and Ive never come across this kind of aggression.

Im not sure i can trust them with the kids now either

any help/advice would be greatly appreciated

andreac · 20-07-2011 3:44pm

Are these dogs related, ie Brother and sister?

LucyBliss · 20-07-2011 3:48pm

First off, you poor divil! I'm sorry this is happening and that your daughter got caught in the middle the way she did.

Can I just ask first off, what ages are they? If they're close in age, it may be a thing of one of them trying to get the upper hand over the other. Are they neutered? Just because sometimes hormones can set a dog as cracked as any teenager.
Is there one dog who's starting the fights more than the other, perhaps started the first big fight without any real provocation? If there is, perhaps a trip to the vet to rule out anything medical.

I know I'm asking more questions and you're looking for answers and I'm sorry, but I'm just trying to understand better.

When two of mine started to display traits of not getting along a year and a half ago, we decided to walk the legs off them, so to speak. My mother had one and I had the other and off we'd go. If they tried to get into it, they were were brought back to heel but we kept going at a quick pace, with commands to walk around this and cross here and praise when they walked a bit without eyeballing one another. We also did the Nothing In Life Is Free, where they had to sit for everything, boundaries and manners were constantly reinforced.
Basically we tried to tire them out body and mind so they had little left in them for fighting, as well as showing them what we expected of them. Every now and then, one of them will try and start up again but now when I snap my fingers and tell her 'no!', she breaks and looks at me so I can redirect her to more civil behaviour.

ETA: My dogs are a mother and a brother and sister from the same litter and 99.9% of the time, they are in complete harmony with no problems with leaving them alone. So it can be done once you nip the behaviour you don't want in the bud from the start.

carlybabe1 · 20-07-2011 4:04pm

Hi, yes they are brother and sister, they are 8 mths old, and both are neutered.
I was so careful to avoid this kind of behaviour, I brought them home in separate carriers from the vets after they were neutered (made that mistake with my cats, and now they cant stand each other, 3 yr later)
They are walked every day, and the have regular check up at the vets. They are both in great health, thier coats are really shiny and eyes are nice and bright. They are fine 99% of the time too, but Im worried when they get like thats its like they are in a trance, lights on, nobody home type thing. Also, they are very strong on the lead and can pull fiercely. They are generally sweethearts, and will cuddle on the sofa with you, but its like they just get into a mode, so frustrating. Im terrified they will go for someone while Im walking, and that will be the end of them

LucyBliss · 20-07-2011 4:15pm

It's possible they are hyping each other up to a frenzy and this is how it comes out. All I can tell you is what we did with ours: we would walk them separately and then my mother and I would walk them together, taking a dog each. That way if one tried to start something, it wasn't just one person having to deal with the insanity that only an 8 month old pup can come out with!

This we started after one bad walk where one barked his head off, setting the other one into a frenzy and I was convinced this was it, they'd have to be given away and I was a terrible owner! Then I had a good cry to restore my nerves and we decided on the course of action above.

Right now, my three year old dogs are lying on their beds snoozing. There is no food aggression, no territorial aggression and no bad behaviour, bar the odd instance when one gets excited and ends up on top of another. They were also my late grandmother's unofficial 'therapy dogs'.
So, like I said, you can get them over that behaviour but it takes a lot of consistency and patience. And a lot of booze/chocolate, depending on your personal preference!

Zapperzy · 20-07-2011 4:27pm

carlybabe1 wrote: »

Hi, yes they are brother and sister, they are 8 mths old, and both are neutered.
I was so careful to avoid this kind of behaviour, I brought them home in separate carriers from the vets after they were neutered (made that mistake with my cats, and now they cant stand each other, 3 yr later)
They are walked every day, and the have regular check up at the vets. They are both in great health, thier coats are really shiny and eyes are nice and bright. They are fine 99% of the time too, but Im worried when they get like thats its like they are in a trance, lights on, nobody home type thing. Also, they are very strong on the lead and can pull fiercely. They are generally sweethearts, and will cuddle on the sofa with you, but its like they just get into a mode, so frustrating. Im terrified they will go for someone while Im walking, and that will be the end of them

Are they offlead? If so keep them both onlead (enroll another person so that ye can have a dog each until things settle down) if you think theres a chance of them going for someone. Don't let people approach and pet them without your permission. What age is your daughter? If she's not able to handle them it's probably best not to let her walk them on her own.

Would you consider getting a behaviourist in to help? If you post what area you are in someone might be able to recommend one.

carlybabe1 · 20-07-2011 5:27pm

[QUOTE=Zapperzy;73395664]Are they offlead? If so keep them both onlead (enroll another person so that ye can have a dog each until things settle down) if you think theres a chance of them going for someone. Don't let people approach and pet them without your permission. What age is your daughter? If she's not able to handle them it's probably best not to let her walk them on her own.

Would you consider getting a behaviourist in to help? If you post what area you are in someone might be able to recommend one.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely not, they never get off the lead. My daughter is old enough to walk them, and has done sisnce they were vaccinated, this behaviour is very new, only happened 2 in the last week/10 days. Now they bark like crazy when someone walks past them. I can draw thier focus back, but my daughter doesnt seem to be able to, judging from today. She wont be walking them unaccompanied again.

Im in kildare but closer to dublin
Thanks again for all the help
@Lucybliss, thats very helpful, thanks a mill, will def try and enrol someone else before it gets out of hand

LucyBliss · 20-07-2011 5:47pm

carlybabe1 wrote: »

My daughter is old enough to walk them, and has done sisnce they were vaccinated, this behaviour is very new, only happened 2 in the last week/10 days. Now they bark like crazy when someone walks past them. I can draw thier focus back, but my daughter doesnt seem to be able to, judging from today. She wont be walking them unaccompanied again.

Oh, the mad barking! How well I know that. My Jack would bark and there would seem to be no stopping him and I would think I was going to die from embarrassment. Not so my mother so she took him in hand and if he started to bark as people passed, she'd do the "This way! Come on! Come on!" and start to run a bit to get him focused back on her. And then I started to think, what do I care what people think, I'm going to concentrate less on me and more on the dog and now I can walk him no bother.
A lot of it can be a confidence thing, and while I don't know your daughter's age, I'm guessing she's young enough that it bothers her a lot and the dog most likely reacts to that. I know for me, I had to step up and show Jack that I wasn't taking that behaviour and that I was in charge on walks.

I'm not talking about dominance or anything like that because I don't train that way, I'm all about the positive and the hugs and kisses and treats and them lying beside me on the couch for a nap, but once the dogs know that you mean business and aren't bothered by their crap, they will respond to your attitude. I mean, last night Jack started to bark at another dog so I gave him the commands above in a cheerleader on crack voice and kept directing his attention to me and within seconds he was back with his attention on where we were going, not the other dog. I don't know what tires me more sometimes: the fast pace of the walk or the relentlessly cheerful attitude I have to have to make sure he's paying attention to me!

DBB · 20-07-2011 7:50pm

OP, there is a really good behaviour specialist who covers your area and does one to one sessions in your own home. She has particular expertise in aggression. Emmaline Duffy-Fallon of citizencanineireland.com

carlybabe1 · 20-07-2011 9:57pm

@ Lucybliss, thanks for that, the actual barking doesnt bother me, but they run at the person and sometimes end up on back legs cause im holding the lead so tight. I broke my thumb nail right across the bed of the nail pulling him back this evening (:( painnnnn). Its more the fact that they get into a frenzy, one then encourage the other if you get me, then they are switched off to my commands and it takes a bit of work on my part to get thier attention. My daughter would be the same but she got a fright cos the other dog wasnt on a lead, she was worried there would be a fight. Ill defo start bringing them uot twicw a day, might lose a bit of weight while im at it

Brian? · 21-07-2011 4:20am

I'm far from an expert, but I grew up with Jack Russels. It sounds to me like they're both fighting about who the boss is. They need to know that it's neither of them, it's you. I'm not advocating violence or anything, just general good discipline.

trio · 21-07-2011 9:01am

With regards to the pulling on the lead - try a front-clipping harness. When they pull it turns them to the side and they can't pull as hard.

We have a JRT and we had TERRIBLE walks. We eventually were recommended the Sense-ation Harness that you can get online from Dog Training Ireland. (We got the Mini as our dog is quite small - you'd probably be getting the same size)

Does it completely eradicate pulling? No, but it lessens it to manageable levels. The only thing I don't like about it is that there's no padding, so we've had to cut dishcloth and glue it around the pits under the armpits - it was chafing. But that was easy enough.

Ours is a pain in the ass with other dogs on the walk. We had to have a dog trainer advise us. We've been taught that when you meet another dog you should let the dog go "nose to nose, nose to bum" for their introductions, and have a loose lead at all times, and then GO quickly before they all start pissing each other off. (Taut lead when meeting another dog stresses your dog apparently, as they feel they have less room to move if they need to bounce out of the other dogs way - not sure if that's true but we're doing loose lead religiously all the same)

Once they've their nose&bum sniff, then we reward him with a treat immediately. So meeting other dogs becomes a good thing. But if they've snapped at the other dog, then no treat.

The other good thing about the treat is that it snaps their focus back on to you, as you have suddenly become far more interesting than the other dog. At this point, when ours meets a dog now, he looks up at me going "where's my treat?"

Certainly you need to be bringing treats on the walk with you. It makes such a difference. The walk becomes a much less stressful thing for the dog, and instead becomes a treat-filled fun thing. Cos it does sound like your dogs are finding walks stressful, with all the guarding and protecting and territorial stuff they think they're having to do.

Oh, and I hate to say it - but we find that one walk a day isn't enough for ours. Yeah, I know - that's the last thing you want to hear! But it became quickly apparent that ours had too much energy for just one walk and now it's morning and evening. Mind you, ours is an only dog, so maybe if yours play a lot during the day it burns off more energy!

carlybabe1 · 21-07-2011 10:30am

Hi, I have a front clipping harness, and its def better for control than a collar. Yes, will bring the treat with me next time, and was defo gonna up the walks. The female is a lazy-bones and just wants to cuddle on the sofa, the male is a HEADCASE

He just runs in circles round the garden the whole day and tries to dig his way to china. They used to be great to walk, so I dont understand the anxiety to be honest, but def will have to sort it as they are very much loved and if anything happened to them we would all be devastated. Thanks again for all the tips

LucyBliss · 21-07-2011 4:59pm

Your dogs sound like mine: Meg will sit in the garden beside me or sniff around, just doing her own thing. Jack is bopping up and down, intently sniffing where he saw the local cat sitting six bloody months ago(!), running after birds and flies, both real and imaginary. Rosie then will mind her own business for a while before she gets up, barks at the air which makes Jack immediately assume that we are under attack from marauders so he has to do another few laps of the garden before he decides to run around the tree a few times for luck.
It's a like a crazy sitcom in our garden sometimes.

Myself, I'd say it's a phase in their development because they're so close in age that is setting your two off right now. It does sound a lot like what happened with mine but you can sort it out with a bit of time and lots of patience and consistency on you demanding manners from them.
Good for you for not giving up on them and I wish you the best of luck!

Doggies beginning to attack each other

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