Catholic Church claims it is above the law

Run_to_da_hills · 15-07-2011 05:52PM

Spread wrote: »

The catholic church has claimed a lot of things in it's time. In a scale of ludicroussness virgin birth, transubstantiation, papal infallibility and miracles must take the biscuit body and blood of christ.

I would put doctrine of Substantiation in line with that of believing in Santa Claus.

As mentioned before the Roman Catholic Church is an evil pagan cult dressed up in words and names that are found in the Bible.

bleg · 15-07-2011 06:26PM

Ratzinger's reaction when he was quizzed whether he thinks the law of the land should apply to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-jXe0x4YdM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

hatrickpatrick · 15-07-2011 06:26PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

The Catholic Church is an organisation that has overseen the rape and torture of Irish children.

Any other organisation to have done so would have been declared illegal and had its assets seized. :mad:

The Irish state itself is another organization which has overseen the rape and torture of Irish children and done nothing about it.
Can we seize the assets of the state too? *looks up hopefully*

dvpower · 15-07-2011 06:30PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The Irish state itself is another organization which has overseen the rape and torture of Irish children and done nothing about it.
Can we seize the assets of the state too? *looks up hopefully*

We already own owe them.

The_Thing · 15-07-2011 07:16PM

Enemies of the Catholic Church including Atheists and Homosexuals have been using these child abuse cases as a convenient bandwagon to further their own goals - it's similar to the MPAA and RIAA tactic of highlighting the use of Peer To Peer technology to transmit child pornography as a handy cover for their real agenda which is the preservation of their failing business model.

You can be sure that if the confessional formed part of the Muslim faith that there would have been no mention of it in this regard.

Delirium · 15-07-2011 07:19PM

The_Thing wrote: »

Enemies of the Catholic Church including Atheists and Homosexuals have been using these child abuse cases as a convenient bandwagon to further their own goals - it's similar to the MPAA and RIAA tactic of highlighting the use of Peer To Peer technology to transmit child pornography as a handy cover for their real agenda which is the preservation of their failing business model.

You can be sure that if the confessional formed part of the Muslim faith that there would have been no mention of it in this regard.

Is there some sort rule that "ye wouldn't do that to the Muslims" get thrown into any thread that is critical of the RCC?

Ghost Buster · 15-07-2011 07:21PM

The_Thing wrote: »

Enemies of the Catholic Church including Atheists and Homosexuals have been using these child abuse cases as a convenient bandwagon to further their own goals - it's similar to the MPAA and RIAA tactic of highlighting the use of Peer To Peer technology to transmit child pornography as a handy cover for their real agenda which is the preservation of their failing business model.

You can be sure that if the confessional formed part of the Muslim faith that there would have been no mention of it in this regard.

Tip: When you feel resistance with the cotton bud its time to stop.

Knight who says Meh · 15-07-2011 07:24PM

The_Thing wrote: »

Enemies of the Catholic Church including Atheists and Homosexuals have been using these child abuse cases as a convenient bandwagon to further their own goals - it's similar to the MPAA and RIAA tactic of highlighting the use of Peer To Peer technology to transmit child pornography as a handy cover for their real agenda which is the preservation of their failing business model.

You can be sure that if the confessional formed part of the Muslim faith that there would have been no mention of it in this regard.

And other pinko liberal fairy types who have issues with institutional kiddy rape. Bastids.....:mad:

admiralofthefleet · 15-07-2011 07:36PM

The_Thing wrote: »

Enemies of the Catholic Church including Atheists and Homosexuals have been using these child abuse cases as a convenient bandwagon to further their own goals - it's similar to the MPAA and RIAA tactic of highlighting the use of Peer To Peer technology to transmit child pornography as a handy cover for their real agenda which is the preservation of their failing business model.

You can be sure that if the confessional formed part of the Muslim faith that there would have been no mention of it in this regard.

like priests who raped male children?

dvpower · 16-07-2011 12:03AM

The_Thing wrote: »

Enemies of the Catholic Church including Atheists and Homosexuals have been using these child abuse cases as a convenient bandwagon to further their own goals - it's similar to the MPAA and RIAA tactic of highlighting the use of Peer To Peer technology to transmit child pornography as a handy cover for their real agenda which is the preservation of their failing business model.

I can't figure out this analogy - is the RCC the music industry and the child abuse the pornography?. Who's the peer to peer technology?

Mickeroo · 16-07-2011 12:42AM

The_Thing wrote: »

Enemies of the Catholic Church including Atheists and Homosexuals have been using these child abuse cases as a convenient bandwagon to further their own goals - it's similar to the MPAA and RIAA tactic of highlighting the use of Peer To Peer technology to transmit child pornography as a handy cover for their real agenda which is the preservation of their failing business model.

What exactly are atheist's and homosexual's goals? I can speak for homosexuals but as an atheist the only goal I have at the moment is to finish my degree, get a job, meet a nice girl maybe and erradicate the catholic church from the face of the earth....oh wait, ya got me.

The_Thing wrote: »

You can be sure that if the confessional formed part of the Muslim faith that there would have been no mention of it in this regard.

No because the muslims weren't fiddling with irish kids afaik

mloc · 16-07-2011 03:58AM

Wow, The_Thing getting quoted a lot there, bit of a win for a troll type.

Min · 16-07-2011 10:33AM

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0716/1224300820712.html

THE SEAL of the confessional is generally respected in most western jurisdictions, whether constitutionally or by custom and practice.
To date, in the Republic, Northern Ireland and Britain it is respected under custom and practice, while in the US it is protected under two constitutional amendments.

The article says that the seal of the confessional is protected by the guarantee of freedom of religious practice in article 44.2.1 and by the right to privacy implicitly guaranteed by article 40.3, of the constitution.

The government would be better off trying to protect children, like how did the HSE let a woman brulatise her 8 children for 9 years after it first came to their attention? She got 24 years in jail with 16 suspended.
The government saying the confessional does not have the right to secrecy it deserves is not going to save any child from abuse, no report said this was a problem area.

Social workers have expressed alarm that mandatory reporting might be brought in.
They say they are under pressure as it is and it would do more harm than good.
Nice to see the government again talking without doing the work to see if it can be implemented in a way that works, this is the same as guarantees to Roscommon hospital before the election, burning bondholders and so on.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0716/1224300822722.html

It says the FF/Green governmented opted against mandatory reporting as it could “divert scarce child protection resources, causing an extensive administrative burden”,
The Irish times reports that this is what happened in Australia when mandatory reporting was brought in and the workers in the field want the decision there reversed.
One wonders if this government even thought this through.

Show Time · 16-07-2011 10:38AM

The_Thing wrote: »

Enemies of the Catholic Church including Atheists and Homosexuals have been using these child abuse cases as a convenient bandwagon to further their own goals - it's similar to the MPAA and RIAA tactic of highlighting the use of Peer To Peer technology to transmit child pornography as a handy cover for their real agenda which is the preservation of their failing business model.

You can be sure that if the confessional formed part of the Muslim faith that there would have been no mention of it in this regard.

Anyone who is an enemy of an organization which sponsors kid fiddlers is ok in my book.

Delirium · 16-07-2011 10:53AM

Min wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0716/1224300820712.html

The article says that the seal of the confessional is protected by the guarantee of freedom of religious practice in article 44.2.1 and by the right to privacy implicitly guaranteed by article 40.3, of the constitution.

Freedom of religion does not guarantee all religious traditions are allowed, just that they have the freedom to practice their religion as long as it doesn't break any laws.

Right to privacy doesn't extend to criminal activity.

The government would be better off trying to protect children, like how did the HSE let a woman brulatise her 8 children for 9 years after it first came to their attention? She got 24 years in jail with 16 suspended.

why should we limit protecting kids, why not attempt to protect kids in all situations? Attempting to deflect criticism onto the government does nothing to solve the problems caused by the RCC.

The government saying the confessional does not have the right to secrecy it deserves is not going to save any child from abuse, no report said this was a problem area.

A priest told the story that one of the bishops mentioned in the report didn't report child abuse because he thought the information was confidential between the priest and bishop because the priest had confessed to him.

Social workers have expressed alarm that mandatory reporting might be brought in.
They say they are under pressure as it is and it would do more harm than good.
Nice to see the government again talking without doing the work to see if it can be implemented in a way that works, this is the same as guarantees to Roscommon hospital before the election, burning bondholders and so on.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0716/1224300822722.html

It says the FF/Green governmented opted against mandatory reporting as it could “divert scarce child protection resources, causing an extensive administrative burden”,
The Irish times reports that this is what happened in Australia when mandatory reporting was brought in and the workers in the field want the decision there reversed.
One wonders if this government even thought this through.

If it requires more work then the government should do something to cope with the extra work. It's shocking that people in this day and age are arguing against mandatory reporting of child abuse.

Min · 16-07-2011 11:11AM

koth wrote: »

Freedom of religion does not guarantee all religious traditions are allowed, just that they have the freedom to practice their religion as long as it doesn't break any laws.

Right to privacy doesn't extend to criminal activity.

why should we limit protecting kids, why not attempt to protect kids in all situations? Attempting to deflect criticism onto the government does nothing to solve the problems caused by the RCC.

A priest told the story that one of the bishops mentioned in the report didn't report child abuse because he thought the information was confidential between the priest and bishop because the priest had confessed to him.

If it requires more work then the government should do something to cope with the extra work. It's shocking that people in this day and age are arguing against mandatory reporting of child abuse.

It seems the government though wants to implement something that will make the situation worse for all children.
I don't think the government will say - we'll do away with expenses for politicians, we will cut our pay to something more realistic and use this money to fund more social workers, do you think they will?
They don't have the money for more, yet the government wants to make the situation worse,
This is what was said by social workers: “As it stands, the child protection system is not functioning properly. There are significant numbers of children without social workers or care plans,” said association spokeswoman Ineke Durville.“I don’t see how putting additional pressure on child protection services will improve the situation.”

I was talking about protecting all children, it is becoming clear mandatory reporting will not improve things but potentially make things worse. This is what the people in the field say, both here and in Australia.

Where are you getting the money for all this, when all the government is doing is making promises then failing to deliver. In this case their talk will be just more failings for children, there was nothing said about more social workers and I don't believe they can afford more and they would need lots as they aren't even able to deal with what they have already, the person above that I quoted said there was a significant number of children at present without social workers or care plans and the government just want to add more to this list.
It is ridiculous, can you tell me where the money is going to come from, when they aren't even to deal with all the present cases.

Ghost Buster · 16-07-2011 11:20AM

Min wrote: »

It seems the government though wants to implement something that will make the situation worse for all children.
I don't think the government will say - we'll do away with expenses for politicians, we will cut our pay to something more realistic and use this money to fund more social workers, do you think they will?
They don't have the money for more, yet the government wants to make the situation worse,
This is what was said by social workers: “As it stands, the child protection system is not functioning properly. There are significant numbers of children without social workers or care plans,” said association spokeswoman Ineke Durville.“I don’t see how putting additional pressure on child protection services will improve the situation.”

I was talking about protecting all children, it is becoming clear mandatory reporting will not improve things but potentially make things worse. This is what the people in the field say, both here and in Australia.

Where are you getting the money for all this, when all the government is doing is making promises then failing to deliver. In this case their talk will be just more failings for children, there was nothing said about more social workers and I don't believe they can afford more and they would need lots as they aren't even able to deal with what they have already, the person above that I quoted said there was a significant number of children at present without social workers or care plans and the government just want to add more to this list.
It is ridiculous, can you tell me where the money is going to come from, when they aren't even to deal with all the present cases.

Its very simple Min. People can believe in magic and voodoo and secret rooms where messages about naughty deeds can be sent to God but expecting this cobblers to be held up in common law is frankly stupid.

goat2 · 16-07-2011 11:27AM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

I think Enda was a bit over-excited when he said anyone with knowledge will be prosecutable and the confessional will also be included. It won't happen.

i think the best thing enda kenny did since he became tiosach, is to let the catholic church know they do not have a grip anymore, and that the actions that were let go by fianna fail in the past, will not happen again, did you ever hear fianna fail speak out, never, kenny is winning me over all the time, beleive me i am a catholic, i also fianna fail in the past,

gigino · 16-07-2011 11:34AM

Deedo wrote: »

Guys, the key question for me is this: Why don't all those good and decent priests out there stand up for what they believe is right and openly challenge the hierarchy about the appalling way they are handling this whole sad and sorry episode. Why are they blindly standing by? The Church (in its widest sense) is being destroyed by the current strategy of hiding behind the Vatican - they should demand change from within - they are only the ones can actually change the current direction. It's a real "Martin Luther" moment for the Church as far as I am concerned.

+1. The rottenness goes all through the Roman Catholic church....right to the top, the human being who claims he is infallible. If he is such a great human being and closer to God than the rest of us as he claims, why was he not a conscientous objector to the Nazis in WW2, instead of joining the Hitler youth + fighting for them....at a time when literally mmillions of his fellow countrymen were being gassed in concentration camps by the same Nazi party led regime ? Think about it. Decide for yourself. I'm not taking moral direction from a church with him at the helm.

PuddleMooders · 16-07-2011 11:37AM

Get stuffed! We're in the 21st century and the government still need to report to a frail, doting man sitting on a throne? F*ck the Catholic church! F*ck religion! If people want to be religious, fine by me. But don't shove it down kids throats, or our own in fact, that religion is the best and only option.

philologos · 16-07-2011 11:45AM

PuddleMooders wrote: »

Get stuffed! We're in the 21st century and the government still need to report to a frail, doting man sitting on a throne? F*ck the Catholic church! F*ck religion! If people want to be religious, fine by me. But don't shove it down kids throats, or our own in fact, that religion is the best and only option.

More gratuitous hysteria.

Just because one happens to dislike the RCC doesn't mean that one should extend this to every creed.

Indeed, it is important to note that churches must operate within the bounds of the law. However, freedom of conscience and expression must be maintained for everybody in society. That essentially means that people do have a right to speak about their faith in public or in private.

That's why I'm saying yes we must tackle this situation head on, and that if the law is broken people must be held to account, but having said that freedom of and from religion in Irish society should be protected absolutely.

People are letting their emotions run wild which is natural, but we also need to restrain those emotions when it comes to legislation and think about it on a rational level.

goat2 · 16-07-2011 11:50AM

PuddleMooders wrote: »

Get stuffed! We're in the 21st century and the government still need to report to a frail, doting man sitting on a throne? F*ck the Catholic church! F*ck religion! If people want to be religious, fine by me. But don't shove it down kids throats, or our own in fact, that religion is the best and only option.

i dont agree with you in not having my children not beleiving in anything, i beleive god is above us all, they can make up their own minds when they have the right to vote, but i will do what i think is best while they were in my care, i am disgusted with what the catholic church has done in the past, and is doing now,
and from listning to enda kenny on the news, he is pandering to nobody, and fair dues to him, i am delighted that he is saying that they will not hide behind the government, and the government we now have are not going to back them, unlike the governments of the past.

Delirium · 16-07-2011 11:53AM

philologos wrote: »

More gratuitous hysteria.

Just because one happens to dislike the RCC doesn't mean that one should extend this to every creed.

Indeed, it is important to note that churches must operate within the bounds of the law. However, freedom of conscience and expression must be maintained for everybody in society. That essentially means that people do have a right to speak about their faith in public or in private.

That's why I'm saying yes we must tackle this situation head on, and that if the law is broken people must be held to account, but having said that freedom of and from religion in Irish society should be protected absolutely.

People are letting their emotions run wild which is natural, but we also need to restrain those emotions when it comes to legislation and think about it on a rational level.

it's a lack of conscience that has us in this mess in the first place.

the clergy broke the law and hid behiind canon law, and you're suggesting we allow that to continue?

philologos · 16-07-2011 11:54AM

koth wrote: »

it's a lack of conscience that has us in this mess in the first place.

the clergy broke the law and hid behiind canon law, and you're suggesting we allow that to continue?

I agree with you?

I haven't suggested that once on this thread actually.

I'm calling out the previous poster for somehow lumping all expressions of faith into condemnation when it is a subsection of a particular denomination which has done this. That's a valid point as far as I see it.

goat2 · 16-07-2011 11:57AM

koth wrote: »

it's a lack of conscience that has us in this mess in the first place.

the clergy broke the law and hid behiind canon law, and you're suggesting we allow that to continue?

in canon law, are they allowed to do indecent acts on children in their care and otherwiswe, when do they break the law, they cannot get married, or have a girlfriend, they are defrocked for that, but for the other more serious senario, they can keep the job and the frock

Delirium · 16-07-2011 12:00PM

Min wrote: »

It seems the government though wants to implement something that will make the situation worse for all children.
I don't think the government will say - we'll do away with expenses for politicians, we will cut our pay to something more realistic and use this money to fund more social workers, do you think they will?
They don't have the money for more, yet the government wants to make the situation worse,

so we do nothing? we'll just use the government as an excuse not to tackle problems of child abuse. they could recoup the money that RCC has failed to pay towards sex abuse victims for a start.

This is what was said by social workers: “As it stands, the child protection system is not functioning properly. There are significant numbers of children without social workers or care plans,” said association spokeswoman Ineke Durville.“I don’t see how putting additional pressure on child protection services will improve the situation.”

then we see about improving social services, not just say we can't do anything.

I was talking about protecting all children, it is becoming clear mandatory reporting will not improve things but potentially make things worse. This is what the people in the field say, both here and in Australia.

Where are you getting the money for all this, when all the government is doing is making promises then failing to deliver. In this case their talk will be just more failings for children, there was nothing said about more social workers and I don't believe they can afford more and they would need lots as they aren't even able to deal with what they have already, the person above that I quoted said there was a significant number of children at present without social workers or care plans and the government just want to add more to this list.
It is ridiculous, can you tell me where the money is going to come from, when they aren't even to deal with all the present cases.

the RCC for a start could pay the compensation they owe, instead of the tax payer footing the bill.

Delirium · 16-07-2011 12:05PM

philologos wrote: »

I agree with you?

I haven't suggested that once on this thread actually.

I'm calling out the previous poster for somehow lumping all expressions of faith into condemnation when it is a subsection of a particular denomination which has done this. That's a valid point as far as I see it.

apologies philo, misunderstood the post.

yeah, it's a valid point.

Min · 16-07-2011 02:47PM

koth wrote: »

so we do nothing? we'll just use the government as an excuse not to tackle problems of child abuse. they could recoup the money that RCC has failed to pay towards sex abuse victims for a start.

then we see about improving social services, not just say we can't do anything.

the RCC for a start could pay the compensation they owe, instead of the tax payer footing the bill.

No one said you do nothing, bringing in laws that change nothing is doing something on the face of it but really nothing is being done as the resources are not there and the evidence points to it making things worse for the social workers who have to deal with the cases.

It was in yesterday's Irish Times that compensation has been paid to some of the victims with property of the diocese of Cloyne sold off, about 13 people left to be paid compensation, the article yestersday said the diocese was finind it hard to find the money as there is church property but it is owned by the parish and not the diocese and it is the diocese that is paying the compensation, not individual parishes. The diocese needs the parishes to hand over property as they own it and not the diocese.

The compensation you are thinking about is the institutional abuse and the tax payer has to take responsibility for some of that given it was the courts who put the people into the institutions where the abuse happened. The gardai were involved and the state inspectors of these institutions did a pretty poor job as they never seemed to see anything wrong. This is why the taxpayers have to pay some of the compensation, one can argue over the % the religious institutions and the state are paying respectively.

Min · 16-07-2011 02:59PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Its very simple Min. People can believe in magic and voodoo and secret rooms where messages about naughty deeds can be sent to God but expecting this cobblers to be held up in common law is frankly stupid.

People have a right to religious freedom, it might make you unhappy and make you feel you are more intelligent by such posts.

You seemed to have not seen that it is protected in the US by law and is in the UK by custom and practice.
So the cobblers are with you as it is protected by law in the US

AudreyHepburn · 16-07-2011 03:02PM

Is it not possible to have threads on the Catholic Church that don't descend into sweeping generalisation and all-out Church/Catholic bashing.

I think we would all do well to remember some simple facts;

1.) Being a priest DOES NOT equal being a paedophile, evil etc etc. I wager the vast majority are honest decent men who simply want to serve their God and their people and would never dream of hurting a child.

2.)The Catholic Church as a whole IS NOT responsible for the child abuse, the blame lies with a minority of sick monsters within it. You simply cannot tar everyone with one brush.

3.)Remaining part of the faith DOES NOT equal condoning what happened and frankly it is offensive to suggest that believers, by virtue of being believers, are ok with child abuse and the cover up of it.

Catholic Church claims it is above the law

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